Glad to see the healthy debate on this issue. To those who do not read ALLl my posts
and/or choose to interpret my posts negatively to make your point let me say this:
Fly fishing IS the ONLY way.....to operate a Quality Trout Fisheries. Even barbless single hook
lures with those big Siwash Hooks hook too deeply and often through eyes and the soft tissue back
in the mouth. THAT is what I mean by flyfishing is the only way.
I don't mean it's the only way to ethically fish nor am I a greedy elitest as some
would like to make me out in order to dismiss what I'm saying.
Would I like to see more people LEARNING to fish flies and practicing C&R?
UNCATEGORICALLY YES.
Do I want it all?
UNCATEGORICALLY NO?
But I think about 50/50 would be about right in contrast to the present 97/3 in light of
the trend of greatly increasing numbers of trouters seeing the conservation need and
switching to flyfishing and loving our quality lakes to death.
HEY, watch that backcast will ya??? Being crammed into 3% of the water is no fun either.

Fear Not FFF:
I have rescued the Zen from the evil hands of the powerbaiters
and have him isolated in Detox dying feathers for flies for punishment. He is
required to repeat "fly fishing only" one thousand times each night as part
of his rehab. It's working, he promised to leave the powerbait home next
time we fish together.

I would like to see the state go to a policy of making lakes with a self sustaining population of trout strictly single barbless hook, no bait. In the past 10 years I've seen numerous (good to great) trout lakes diminish in quality and quantity of fish from over harvesting. There are to many folks out, and I'm sorry but most of them are bait fishing, keeping everything they catch. Whats worse is the throwing back of the small ones so they can try to gaff something bigger. I think it's what you have been calling "grading". They then complain about the size of the fish. Hey, you can't kill all the 10 inchers and expect to come back next year and catch 15 inchers. People, if you can't recognize how fragile a particular lake or pond might be, then you shouldn't be fishing it. The only way future generations can enjoy the kind of fishing we do is by our efforts to provide it. There are plenty of put and take lakes that can provide a great day's fishing for those who feel the need to keep and eat. However, those special lakes that nature can keep going on their own should be cared for by all fisherman.

Hey PP, No argument from me as to hardware being more effective at times. But
being effective is not an excuse to use it.....Dynamite is more Effective too!!!
The question in my mind is"Can it be used without killing too many fish?" in Quality
Waters. My thoughts are NO. Most anglers argue vehimently that the regs are
too dang complicated now. If one were to put a hook size or hook type in to
lessen hook mortality you would have lots of violations that would go undetected
and more mortality than necessary.
Granted it would increase the scope of fishermen who could participate in the
fishery and that is important too. But most lures currently made do not fish
well with less than a #10 Siwash hook. I can see many people driving 80 miles to
fish a quality water and then hooking a trout in the eye or throat 5 minutes out
of the boatlaunch. The rules of sportsmanship sez all fish hooked in the eye,gills,
soft throat tissue or that bleed at all should be retained. What to do, is the fishing day
over on this one fish limit lake or do I just quitely slip this bleeder back into the
water and continue fishing?
What the hell, the law doesen't state for sure it's illegal and I wanna fish. You know the
rest. I still wonder why you lure guys are so resistant (even in our conceptual fishing)
to accept change. It's not hard to learn flyfishing as you already know, plus you would still
have the "rest of the world" to practice your lure fishing. Do you have to be able to lure
fish everywhere you want to even though it has conservation problems?

If a type of well designed lure that worked with small hooks and lip hooked fish
99% of the time existed, I'd agree. I don't know of such a lure yet and I do know how
the current single barbless hook lure rule is working........not very well at all......killing far too
many fish.That's why I continue to say "Fly Fishing Only" Catch and Release or 1 fish limit for
our Quality waters is the ONLY way.

Nice discussion people, with a lot of good comments. It's a touchy subject with catch / release, catch / keep, bait, no bait, FF only. It appears that the key is management and there is a place for all types fishing gear.

MB

I guess its time I threw my .05 in, again. It seems like the non-baiters are mainly after quality fishing, and catch and release is a great method of conservation, and I commend all with this way of thinking, but why are the bait fishers considered a lower class of people? We all purchase the same licenses and spend our hard earned dollars to enjoy our loved sport.
A thought, what would happen if the bait fishers became upset over to many restrictions (in their minds) and did not purchase licenses, how would this effect the department's funding, or turn it around the other way?
There has to be a balance. This could mean increased waters for selective fishing, but banning a specific type of bait that people have used successfully, may not be the answer either.
Its a tough question, the only thing I would ask, is that all the different factions treat the rest with respect, and allow them to enjoy the greatest sport in Washington in their way. Good luck
Banock

I agree. We could use a few more FF only waters and even more Selective/C&R waters. But some lakes just make sense to be catch and kill - and bait is the most efficient means to do this.

I'd just like to point out that I fish the middle fork snoqualmie regularly, and have some interesting estimated statistics from my experiences up there:
A typical fly fishing trip for me will gleam 10 to 30 fish. Most of these fish range from 6 to 10 inches. A few bigger (up to 11 or 12 inches) and a few as small as 3 inches. Of those hooked, I wound/kill about 1 in 10. This is due to:
1) late strikes by tiny fish that hit my dry fly just before my back cast, thus getting flung behind me and smacked against the rocks. DOH!!
2) hooks that penatrate the eye or gills - generally when using large attractor patterns or terrestrials as well as larger wooly buggers

When spinner/spoon fishing, I catch about a third more fish, and they tend to be bigger. I've caught all my larger fish in this river by using spoons/spinners. (larger means 12 to 17inches)
Of those I catch with my ultra light spinning gear, I wound/kill about 1 in 15.

My point is, fly fishing is not always the safest way. The safest way is to just not use hooks. Or just stay home.

Not to beat a dead horse to death, but I have to agree with you PhishPhreak. I've been fishing selective fishery lakes with lures for 10 years. I can honestly say I can't remember ever having a trout swallow my lure, most of the time they are hooked in the corner of the mouth. I'm not saying it isn't possible to have them swallow the hook. Yes I've hooked fish in the eye, but I've hooked fish in the eye with a fly. In my the past 5 years I've been fishing flies I've probably had fish swallow my fly completely over 10 times. I agree there should be lakes that are strickly fly fishing, but there should be other quality lakes that allow single hook lures. Believe it or not there are people out there who enjoy throwing lures for C&R trout fishing. I don't buy the arguement about lures killing more fish than flies. I do believe ignorant fishers kill fish, regardless of choice of gear. One benefit to fly-fish only waters is they are a lot easier to enforce the regulations. I've seen a lot of the selective gear lakes where you know people are using bait, but they just happen to break off when you approach. Just my opinion

WOW! What a subject and what a different point of view. Myself, I fish mostly with bait. I also fish with lures. Someday, I would like to try my hand a flyfishing. At this point, I still purchase a hunting and fishing license yearly, but the future is in question.

According to the annual stocking reports, quite a large number of fish are being stocked in Washington lakes. Are these fish not for catching and keeping? What exactly will happen to a lake that is overpopulated and feed becomes short? It seems as though you are going to have alot of fish floating. Hmmm......

I don't begrudge someone the right to flyfish. I think someday I might really enjoy it. I also don't expect to be told that I cannot fish with bait. What's really bothersome to me is that nomatter where I turn, someone is trying to shove their point of view down my throat. How many years have we not had a problem with bait fishermen? Now it seems as though we have a few grumpy old men that believe that flyfishing is the ONLY way to conservation. I don't believe that eliminating the use of bait is going to solve the problem.

Quite a large number of lakes are stocked. Where does the revenue come from for the stocking, the jobs that are created by stocking, the maintenance of lakes and boat launches? Maybe if the general public was offended by issues like this, there would be even MORE budget cuts due to reduced revenue of lost license sales.

I am not opposed to making some lakes a restricted fishery with tackle and take restrictions, but taking the opportunity for children to effectively catch fish is wrong. Fishing is something that is especially handed down from father to son. The children are our future. Don't take this away from them.

I think by far, the problem of "floating fish" comes from the lack of enforcement. If there is no fear of consequences of regulation infraction, the few people that are causing the problems will continue their nasty habits of releasing fish that are caught using bait.

Although I do mostly use bait, yes...I do keep the first five fish that I catch. After that, my fishing day is over. The fish come home to be cooked for the family or go in the smoker.
Now I can come down off of my soap box...Thank you!

Father to son, eh? What am I, chopped liver? I fish, my boyfriend doesn't (though I'm trying as hard as I can to get him 'hooked', so to speak), there's a lot of fishing mothers and daughters out there too.

I don't think any offense was meant by omitting the feminine gender by the previous message. I have two sons and two daughters and I have taught them all how to fish, now I am working on my grandkids. I personally would love to see more women on the water, I just can't get the wife to go with me. LOL It seems like she enjoys it when I'm gone. I hope you and all women have a wonderful group of memories about this great sport.
Banock

I think you guys are taking this bait thing a little too seriously. Ive got a pond next to my house that i purchase trout for every year. I primarily fly fish with single barbless, and after hooking darn near every fish in the pond throughout the winter and spring i did not lose one fish from CNR. Note* Pond is 6 feet deep and bottom is rarely out of sight. I then switched to bait fishing for a week using nightcrawlers/eggs/PB and after hooking 30-40, only two fish died. Most fish swallowed bait and long needlenose pliers helped gently twist hook free without removing them from water or touching them.

Trout caught in cold/cool water are extremely resiliant if handled the right way. If you deep hook a fish with bait and net it then let it flop in the boat after squeezing it and ripping half its guts out, then sure, the fish will probably croak.

i think our fisheries need to be tailored to the amount of pressure a lake receives, wild fish present, location, and the size of the lake. If there are no wild fish left in a lake, then hatchery plants can sustain a put/take fishery. If a lake has a good population of wild fish, then selective rules need to be placed or total CNR. There should be enough different kinds of fisheries to make everyone happy.....just my .02

I just can't pass on this one! As for a baitban on some lakes I can agree with that,if and only if we can have a flyfishing ban on all the other waters. Don't get me wrong I love to fly fish but I don't feel we should condem people who don't fly fish as some underclass trailer trash that has no right to be on MY water. As far as flyfishing only as the ONLY way let me tell you. A strike indicator makes a pretty good bobber and all that fuzz on flys makes powerbait stay on really good. True its a little harder to cast than a spinning rod but you get the hang of it after a while. And you can kill as many and as fast with a flyrod as you can with any other gear. Sorry didn't mean to rant and rave but I do get tired of some of the snobish attitudes. A NOTE for Stacey I truley wish something could be done to clean up Kress's Lake's fishery my sons like to fish there but I almost refuse to go there anymore and never on a weekend. The last couple years it has gotten down right UGLY around the lake. I think it needs some serious enforcement. The stocked trout have been getting seriously abused and the kids are being taught to do it. Like sending kids to the car with a bag of fish so the parents can keep on fishing and pokeing your limit in the car and practicing c/r for the rest of the day just so someone else won't get your spot or holding the spot untill one of your buddies shows up. Like I said just down right UGLY! I for one don't want my boys to learn to fish this way. Ok done now I will put my soap box away.

MtnJoe,

Thanks for the information on Kress Lake. I will pass that on to the Captain. I know both Officers that work the area up there and I will have them start checking as much as they can.

This is a special lake and we want to make sure that kids and adult alike can go there without having to deal with any negative problems.

stace

Wow, A very interesting post from Mtnjoe. In one breath he sez it's wrong to
condem baiters as second class sportsmen/fishermen. In the next breath he points out
a number of "Issues" with the fishermen at Kress lake. These issues and a few others, I'm sorry to say, along with the fact you cannot possibly practice C&R conservation bait fishing (despite what
one poster claims) are what make me talk about bait fishers as though they were
the second class citizens of the fishing world. Of course throwing garbage everywhere,
hogging fish and fishing holes, killing fish to satisfy your need to fish beyond taking your limit,teaching the young disrespect for fish and other fishermen, etc.,etc. may be the new American sportsmanship, and I may be just another grumpy old fly fisherman as some have implied.

Still, I'll calls em as I sees em! Sorry!

Amen FishinFellaS.

signed,

another grump

Stacie: Wasn't the garbage problem on Klinline Ponds from baitfishermen deemed such a serious
problem by the City of Vancouver or the County of Clark that they approached the Dept.
of F&G to reduce or eliminate the stocking level in the ponds because it was becoming a
health hazard? Just curious! Seems to me it would be a shame to loose a fishing hole like
we have in several instances in E. Wash because landowners won't tolerate the pigs that fish
there trashing the landscape any longer.

FF,
I rarely say anything bad about anyone, but you are pushing this "superior attitude" of yours to the limit.
As far as motality by bait fishers, I guess its all in the way you fish. I personally watch my line and not the pole; in doing this I can tell when the fish is mouthing the bait, and set the hook at that time, not wait until it is swallowed. In fishing in this manner I have REPEATEDLY had the fish throw the hook before it reaches the boat or at the boat. So much for your KILL mentality concerning baiters. And, I really take offense to being called "second class fishers"!!! Who gave you the almighty power to think you are better than anyone else? Weren't we all created equal? I guess some feel that we've evolved above BARBARIANS. The word "discrimination" comes to mind when I read your posts--and I'm glad you on the east side.
Banock

Hi Everyone...

Our Program, works very hard to provide fishing opportunities for everyone. Both user groups are important to us. There are waters were we encourage catch and keep and there are waters where we encourage catch and release.

It makes me a bit sad to have to see an us and them situation between bait fishers and fly fishers. They are both relevant fisheries. They both encourage people to get out and get fishing. And that's what we want you guys(and gals) to do!

I feel it would be wrong to stereotype all bait fishers when there are a certain few who do not pick up their bait containers and leave areas messy.

Klineline has had a big problem with this. For those of you who are not familiar with the pond, it is an urban water that we generally stock with several thousand fish for local anglers. The gear of choice seems to be bait, although some anglers use lures and I have even seen a couple of fly fishers out there.

So a few anglers who leave the area messy, take fish over their limit or violate other regulations, make all the other anglers look bad.

Fishing is like any hobby. There are many ways to enjoy it. Some people have preferred ways. Others like to keep it simple. Either way, the most important thing is to follow the regulations, fish ethically, fish safely and take your kids fishing!!

I know several senior citizens that use Klineline and are VERY respectful bait fishers. The highlight of their day is to come down to the pond with their folding chairs and coolers and spend the day enjoying the outdoors. And darn it they have earned that right!!!

I know a lot of fly fishers that astound me with their ability and technique! Fly fishing looks really hard but they make it look simple and fun.

Encouraging other anglers to fish ethically is the way to go. Not everyone is going to do it. But if everyone does their part, it will make the experience that much better for everyone.

So, whether you catch and eat, or catch and release there is room for you all. We, as a Department, will provide the best opportunities we can for both user groups and do our best to educate about fishing ethics (which I am about to make into a new thread).

There are great fishing opportunities out there and whichever way you choose to enjoy them I hope that you get out there and have some fun.