Didn't want this to get buried under the tiger trout topic and it is a very good topic to discuss. I read everyone's viewpoints and I agree with both sides actually.

My problem with powerbait, and other types of bait is when people grade the fish. By this I mean, they fish with bait... catch an 8" fish... know there are bigger fish then try to release the 8" fish.

Fish caught with bait RARELY live. They may look okay when they swim off, but they aren't. It is very difficult to release fish caught with bait. That is why we have the regulation, "when using bait the first five fish you catch are your limit" (paraphrased). Grading has gotten so bad on some of our waters that I have looked into "No Bait" regs on some of them. But that would take away the opportunity for kids who are not really into the whole fly fishing style or use of lures.

We as an agency need to do more to educate about how to catch and release... however, when you use bait you should be keeping those fish if it is legal to do so. Once you have caught your five trout using bait you are done for the day... period.

The thing I don't like about powerbait is that it leaves a nasty film on top of the water and if a bunch of people are using it the fish stop biting simply because there is so much bait floating around. I have seen this on several lakes on Opening Day.

But, I do not think one user group (bait vs. fly fishers) is better than another. It is our goal (in Reg. 5) to provide opportunities for both groups. If you do use bait, please please be careful about releasing these fish. If you don't intend to eat them or take them home, then use another method (lures etc) if possible. It saves the fish for another day.

That was a great discussion by the way. No problem with getting passionate about how you feel, as long as it's polite!

stace

Thank Stace! I'm with you 100%.

I fish with spinners and spoons as well as rapalas a lot for trout. The fish never swallow these lures (of course), but it seems they will get hooked around/in the eye 50% of the time, especially if I have trebles on those lures. I always keep these fish, realeasing the ones that are just hooked in the lip/snout. When fishing with bait, which I also do quite frequently, I have noticed and picked up on a few things. Fishing Powerbait will get you a throat hooked fish almost all the time, unless you're real careful and can detect the bite right away and immediately set the hook. But, I don't think releasing fish after catching them with bait is rational either. I do hate having to cut the leaders that are stuck way down in the fish's craw after catching them, and wait until I clean them to get the hook out though. So, I don't use Powerbait that much anymore. Instead I use eggs, marshmellows, corn, and nightcrawlers. While fishing these, I either hold my rod and slowly reel keeping the line tight, or I watch it REALLY close in the rod holder. This way as soon as I see/feel the bite, I'm on it and set the hook. I've gotten so good at this technique that most of my fish hooked on bait in the last few years have been hooked right in the lip/snout, not in the craw. I think trout suck the bait in as they hit it. I am able to set it to them when they're still mouthing it though. Now, like I said, I'm not rationalizing catch and release with bait, I'm just giving an idea out there for those of you that don't like digging for your leaders in a fish's mouth after landing them.

Hi Stacie: It's nice to see you chime in on this issue. I perhaps overkilled when I said
I'd like to see a powerbait ban, but as you know there IS no way to practice conservation
using powerbait or any other bait for that matter, though I see many people practicing C&R baitfishing and grading, in my area it's a big problem. These fish are wasted,period.

I think you SHOULD list those lakes where you have a grading problem as NO BAIT lakes.
Those with children do not have to have every lake available to them to find a good spot
for the kids to fish. Besides, much of the real young kids fishing thing is actually parents fishing with
their kids in order to fishhog a second or third limit of trout. The older kids should be
learning to fish barbless flies or single hook barbless lures as they can cast well enuff.

I wholeheartedly endorse your idea that the Dept. should be more proactive in endorsing
C&R fishing and in holding seminars to teach those who want to learn to flyfish C&R.
So many people think that it's a magic coordination thing and get discouraged from trying
when in reality you do not even have to cast to fish chironomids or drag nymphs.

My last point to you is that we are getting serious crowding on our quality and fly fishing only
lakes in E.Wash and also those in W.Wash to a lesser degree. This indicates to me a rapidly
growing trend away from bait fishing for 8-10" trout and into fishermen serching for a quality large
trout fishing expericence. Your Department has done a good job on most of the quality lakes
it has designated. However, there should be many many more of them. Take a lood at
Canadas lead. Perhaps 40% are restricted limit.
Thanks again for your input and participation on our web forum. It should be manditory reading for most of your Depts. staff.

I can't speak for the other Regions, but here in Reg. 5 we have a limited number of lakes to spread across all the user groups (trout vs. warmwater, bait vs. fly fisher). The lakes I can think of right off that are popular for FF are Merrill Lake, Castle Lake and Coldwater. These are sometimes difficult to get into.

Then we have many local bait-put and take lakes.

A lot of our high lakes are selective gear fisheries. Do you think that opportunity should be spread to lowland lakes as well? I want to make sure I understand your post!

I am not sure of how the other Regions are managing their waters.

By the way, I appreciate your posts. They are really full of good information. I LOVE to hear this stuff from anglers because it helps give us ideas on how we can provide better opportunities for you!

Your right, this can be a sticky subject. It seems like we already have a separation of fishermen and women, some fish only trout and warmwater species, some just the rivers, and the fly fishers. I personally am a bait fisher on lakes only, but I do keep the first five caught. I agree that there needs to be more education in the fishing world, this might also restrict some of the conflict between the different factions.
When I taught Hunter Ed. the department had a Fishing ed. component, but I haven't heard much of it since, is it still operating? If it is maybe some fishing classes.
I hate to see closing lakes to certain types of fishing, some people with disabilities can not flyfish, (I am one). This is a tough question to answer and be fair to everyone. On the powerbait issue, most of the people I see on the lakes I frequent seem to use common sense (most of the time), when it comes to this type of bait. It seems like we are back to the old problem of a few ruining it for the rest. One suggestion might be enforcement, I did not see one officer on any of the lakes I go to this past year, so the offenders think they can get away with catch and release when using bait. Sometimes just the presence of enforcement changes the whole picture.
Keep up the good work in region 5 and I'm glad I don't have to have the final word.

Stacie: I lived in your area in Naselle and Kelso for about 12 years total. It does have the problem of too few lakes. I have no real problem with the flyfish lakes management in your area as all 3 are restricted limit. Castle seems to be going downhill a little and may need augumentation plants eventually. There are only about a dozen other lakes to consider in your area. My concept is that at least the richer 20% of that dozen or so, like perhaps Horsethief and maybe Rowland or Cress should be a quality lake for flys and barbless lures only w/1 fish limits.
Most of your high lakes in the St Helens and Indian Heaven lakes are relatively lightly fished and not rich lakes,so they are managed OK. I don't know what you mean by the high lakes being selective gear?? Aren't they mostly unlisted and thus under general regulations which would permit any fishing method? I know people bait fish them mostly.

Your area is not representative of most of Washington lake wise. Mason county where I fished the last 5 years I was in W. Wash is more representative of what I'm talking about. Spencer lake and Stump lake are rich lakes and capable of a quality fishery but managed as a fish factory for put and take. Another type there is tiny Deer lake and Tenas which are not rich but could be managed for a quiet escape type quality experienc with 1 fish limits; however under general year around regulations Deer at least is over baitfished and depleted by a handfull of local baiters within the first 2 months of the season. There are several other lakes rich enough to provide quality fishing around Mason and Kitsap county that are managed as put and take fisheries but could be converted to balance the present ratio of 95% put and take lakes and 5% or less quality. The only lakes in the Shelton area of quality regs are Prices and Cady and Koeneman in two counties of over125 lakes. Not a good ratio at all.
BTW, I was the supervisor who designed and supervised construction of the small campground
picnic area on Radar Ponds near Naselle.

Just thought I would throw my .001 of a cent into the topic of SW WA lakes and selective Regs. I believe we have ample opportunity in the area for selective and fly only waters. I would hate to see a bait restriction on any of our local put and take lakes, Battle Ground, Kline Line, Kress and Horseshoe. I believe it would be taking away opportunities for the younger fishers. Realisticly there are quite a few kids who ride their bikes or walk to these lakes with out their parents and fish. A dozen worms is around a buck and a jar of PB is a couple dollars. Throw in some hooks, bobber and weights and your up to 7 or 8 dollars. In my opinion these anglers are the future and I can't think of any other sport or hobby that could be better for shaping a kids future. The bottom line for kids to get hooked on fishing is to catch fish and bait is the easiest way for catching fish.
As far adding some lakes for the selective fishing and supplementing others, I would have to disagree with fishnfella about The St. Helens area lakes. There are 4 lakes located just west of Coldwater Lake that have a very rich food base and grow some incredible fish. These lakes would offer some tremendous fishing if a selective fishery were in place. As far as Castle Lake, there should absolutly not be any stocking in this lake. The lake has never been stocked and I don't see a need to start now. The average size has gone down from 16" to around 12" in the past decade, but the number of fish present in the lake has rising. I think this can be attributed to the lakes natural progression. Anyways, it's still great fishing. There's not to many places where you can catch and release over 50 wild trout in a day. Now if we could just talk the USFS into opening Spirit Lake!!

Hey trouter: I can't agree with your post as to needing to keep any lake as a bait
lake just for the kids. Besides Kress, Horsethief,and Rowland get almost no kids walking
or riding bikes to them. Even for the others your concern could be addressed by a kids
only section where bait is allowable. On most this would work and still allow a quality fishery.
Besides that parents who fish should be teaching the older kids a fishing method which lends
itself to conservation and that's not bait.

Also I fished the 4 lakes,actually 6-7 lakes W. of Coldwater for years and can't remember any fish
over about 15-16" and those were rare.. Perhaps some of these lakes could produce a quality fisheries with reduced stocking. I'd like to see it done if it's possible. But they didn't impress me as particularly rich lakes.

As to Castle lake you are better informed than me currently about that one... I heard that it was fishing down from the days several years back when I fished it without much detail. I assumed (wrongly probably) that it was from lack of spawning. They may have meant fishing down in size
if your expericnce is lots of 16" fish the opposite is likely true. Those "new" lakes go through
a progression of relatively abundant food which is gradually depleted by the population of large fish
so the size declines over the years.

Fishnfella I agree with you about bait not being the best thing for the conservation of a fishery. But new anglers have to start somewhere. I'll use myself for example. At this point of my fishing life I'm mostly a catch and release fly-fisher. I progressed to this type of fishing over the years. I don't think the majority of todays fly-fishers caught their first fish on a fly. I started fishing with bait when I was younger. As I matured as a fisherman I wanted to expand my fishing experiences, so I started using lures. Now I fly-fish(not exactly pretty). I think new anglers, no matter what their age should be allowed to make this proggession in put and take lakes.
The four lakes in the Mt. St. Helens area I was refering to were Fawn, Elk, Forest and Haneford. I've seen 20" Brook Trout and 4# cutts come from these lakes. In my opinion if a reduced limit and selective regs were put in place in a couple of these lakes it may provide some quality fishing. This may not be neccessary now because Weyerhaeuser has shut down vehicle access to these lakes. So fishing pressure is probably way down.
Good discusion

Sure trouter, where did you see me trying to hog it all? All I'm saying is that
a lot more of our richer lakes should be managed for quality fishing, that's all.
I think(mostly from Canadian experiences and friends) though that there is
a powerbait and catch and kill mentality here where the majority of fishermen and
women NEVER progress away from bait to barbless single hook lures or flies like
you did.

This in my opinion has got to change and we're not really starting to change it yet.
Our buck buys less and less catchable fish each year and there are more and more
fishermen to share those. The practice of planting expensive triploids in powerbait lakes where
98% will never reach their potential is a waste of money and fuzzy thinking
caused by powerbaiters pressuring F&G for larger fish.

Flyfishing with C&R Conservation is the ONLY answer and that also means reduced limits or no limits. It has the huge benefit of being able to provide larger quality fish grown mainly by the lake itself.
Our fishing public needs to be told and cajoled that we cannot go on running most of our trout fishery as a welfare meat program.
Those who fish frequently for meat should share MORE of the available water with sportsmen on say
a 50-50% basis of available lakes and they also should see the handwriting on the wall and
start the process you describe of learning to flyfish and correctly handle and release trout.
This also is lower cost and lower maintenance for F&G and allows them to shift more money to
lake rehab, habitat restoration, enhancement and fertilization (yes that will come some day)
and enforcement which I think is too damn scant nowadays.

Me again.

Well first off I wouldn't want Kress to be a quality lake as that my quality channel catfish lake!

I don't want to ruin any oppportunities for the kids, that is why I haven't made a big push to change Klineline although that lake has the biggest problem with people grading fish.

I want to see more opportunities for kids too, and I wouldn't expect them to have to use lures or flies!! Although I know there are some out there that are tremendous fly fishers!

It's not easy trying to balance between not only the user groups, but the different fish.

There is a big push to offer more warmwater fisheries right now! Which is really hard for us!! A lot of our waters are mixed species, but trying to find some to enhance with warmwater fish when you plant a lot of trout!

That is why I picked Kress for the channel cats. It's a great warmwater lake and we do put some trout in their too.

You guys have had some REALLY great responses to this issue! I like hearing all of your opinions, for and against the issues because it helps us figure out ways we can try and help everyone.

Hey fishnfella I must of misunderstood you. I agree with you about the tripliods and less fish being stocked for our money. Good Fishing To Ya

I agree that we could use a few more lakes and rivers managed for 'quality fishing'. I think put and take lakes are also important and some people really get a kick out of catching AND eating trout. Is this an education issue? No. Is is a welfare program gone astray? No. People enjoy hunting and they expect to eat what they kill. Why not let these type of people enjoy themselves on some water set aside for bait fisherman? Grading and other issues may be a problem - but that's an enforcement issue.

Where do you get off saying 'fly fishing is the ONLY way'??? I definately agree that some systems work best as 'fly fishing only', but most lakes/rivers would be fine with selective rules and c&r rules. (quick question - what's the difference between a guy fishign with a bobber and worm and a guy fishing a 'stike indicator' and chiromonid? All I can see is that one guy spent a few grand on a float tube and fly gear and the other spent maybe 100 bucks on a lawn chair and cheap spinning gear... The other difference is that the bait fisherman will need to keep every fish he catches up to his limit - which makes perfect sense on a put-and-take lake. Is one guy smarter than the other? Maybe not the one you think. Oops, sorry for digressing).

Stace, I think the idea of creating more 'selective fishing' and c&r fisheries is an exellent idea. And an educational program that teaches how to fish with single barbless hooks and how to catch and safely release fish would be awesome. Types of fishing that could be taught could vary from:
Fly Fishing in the traditional sense
Fishing a fly and 'fly bubble' from a spinning rod (works great - especially in lakes where you don't have a float tube and back casting is difficult)
Fishing spinners and spoons and other 'hardware'
Fishing jigs and other artificial lures

I don't think we should limit folks to fly fishing or make it sound like fly fishing is some 'holy grail'. Other forms of fishing are just as friendly to c&r and quality fisheries and often times more effective.

FishnfellaS, Flyfishing is the only answer? and you said your not an elitist,what a joke!

At the recent Sportman's show in Seattle WDFW was giving away the "fish release" sticks and teaching people how to use them. The release sticks were very popular.

i mostly use only powerbait when fishing for trout, but instead of the conventional hook, i have switched to the gammy circle hook, so in the hopes of not getting to many fish with gut hook but rather in the side of the mouth..cabelas has the circle hooks if any one is looking for them..**berkley boy**

fishfreak,

If you can't see the difference between bobber fishing with a worm and indicator fishing with a chronie.... then you missed the whole concept of fly fishing.

Stick with what methods work best for you. You won't be bothered with buying expensive rods anytime soon. But, maybe I'll see you on some of the eastside lakes when I make an occasional use of powerbait.

Somehow I can't believe you aren't a member of the Microsoft Flyfishing club.

no no NOOOOOO. My world has come crashing down. A recent report has stated that the all too famous "ZEN" has admitted to an all too common problem plagueing the world at a feverous pace. In a signed confession recieved and witnessed on 3/20/02, the infamous "Zen" clearly stated that he had fallen victim to the evils of, quote, "my sticky balls" or in lamens terms, Powerbait. Once again it has claimed another victim. Think of the children! Oh the horror! When will we stop the insanity???

Glad to see the healthy debate on this issue. To those who do not read ALLl my posts
and/or choose to interpret my posts negatively to make your point let me say this:
Fly fishing IS the ONLY way.....to operate a Quality Trout Fisheries. Even barbless single hook
lures with those big Siwash Hooks hook too deeply and often through eyes and the soft tissue back
in the mouth. THAT is what I mean by flyfishing is the only way.
I don't mean it's the only way to ethically fish nor am I a greedy elitest as some
would like to make me out in order to dismiss what I'm saying.
Would I like to see more people LEARNING to fish flies and practicing C&R?
UNCATEGORICALLY YES.
Do I want it all?
UNCATEGORICALLY NO?
But I think about 50/50 would be about right in contrast to the present 97/3 in light of
the trend of greatly increasing numbers of trouters seeing the conservation need and
switching to flyfishing and loving our quality lakes to death.
HEY, watch that backcast will ya??? Being crammed into 3% of the water is no fun either.

Fear Not FFF:
I have rescued the Zen from the evil hands of the powerbaiters
and have him isolated in Detox dying feathers for flies for punishment. He is
required to repeat "fly fishing only" one thousand times each night as part
of his rehab. It's working, he promised to leave the powerbait home next
time we fish together.

I would like to see the state go to a policy of making lakes with a self sustaining population of trout strictly single barbless hook, no bait. In the past 10 years I've seen numerous (good to great) trout lakes diminish in quality and quantity of fish from over harvesting. There are to many folks out, and I'm sorry but most of them are bait fishing, keeping everything they catch. Whats worse is the throwing back of the small ones so they can try to gaff something bigger. I think it's what you have been calling "grading". They then complain about the size of the fish. Hey, you can't kill all the 10 inchers and expect to come back next year and catch 15 inchers. People, if you can't recognize how fragile a particular lake or pond might be, then you shouldn't be fishing it. The only way future generations can enjoy the kind of fishing we do is by our efforts to provide it. There are plenty of put and take lakes that can provide a great day's fishing for those who feel the need to keep and eat. However, those special lakes that nature can keep going on their own should be cared for by all fisherman.

Hey PP, No argument from me as to hardware being more effective at times. But
being effective is not an excuse to use it.....Dynamite is more Effective too!!!
The question in my mind is"Can it be used without killing too many fish?" in Quality
Waters. My thoughts are NO. Most anglers argue vehimently that the regs are
too dang complicated now. If one were to put a hook size or hook type in to
lessen hook mortality you would have lots of violations that would go undetected
and more mortality than necessary.
Granted it would increase the scope of fishermen who could participate in the
fishery and that is important too. But most lures currently made do not fish
well with less than a #10 Siwash hook. I can see many people driving 80 miles to
fish a quality water and then hooking a trout in the eye or throat 5 minutes out
of the boatlaunch. The rules of sportsmanship sez all fish hooked in the eye,gills,
soft throat tissue or that bleed at all should be retained. What to do, is the fishing day
over on this one fish limit lake or do I just quitely slip this bleeder back into the
water and continue fishing?
What the hell, the law doesen't state for sure it's illegal and I wanna fish. You know the
rest. I still wonder why you lure guys are so resistant (even in our conceptual fishing)
to accept change. It's not hard to learn flyfishing as you already know, plus you would still
have the "rest of the world" to practice your lure fishing. Do you have to be able to lure
fish everywhere you want to even though it has conservation problems?

If a type of well designed lure that worked with small hooks and lip hooked fish
99% of the time existed, I'd agree. I don't know of such a lure yet and I do know how
the current single barbless hook lure rule is working........not very well at all......killing far too
many fish.That's why I continue to say "Fly Fishing Only" Catch and Release or 1 fish limit for
our Quality waters is the ONLY way.

Nice discussion people, with a lot of good comments. It's a touchy subject with catch / release, catch / keep, bait, no bait, FF only. It appears that the key is management and there is a place for all types fishing gear.

MB

I guess its time I threw my .05 in, again. It seems like the non-baiters are mainly after quality fishing, and catch and release is a great method of conservation, and I commend all with this way of thinking, but why are the bait fishers considered a lower class of people? We all purchase the same licenses and spend our hard earned dollars to enjoy our loved sport.
A thought, what would happen if the bait fishers became upset over to many restrictions (in their minds) and did not purchase licenses, how would this effect the department's funding, or turn it around the other way?
There has to be a balance. This could mean increased waters for selective fishing, but banning a specific type of bait that people have used successfully, may not be the answer either.
Its a tough question, the only thing I would ask, is that all the different factions treat the rest with respect, and allow them to enjoy the greatest sport in Washington in their way. Good luck
Banock

I agree. We could use a few more FF only waters and even more Selective/C&R waters. But some lakes just make sense to be catch and kill - and bait is the most efficient means to do this.

I'd just like to point out that I fish the middle fork snoqualmie regularly, and have some interesting estimated statistics from my experiences up there:
A typical fly fishing trip for me will gleam 10 to 30 fish. Most of these fish range from 6 to 10 inches. A few bigger (up to 11 or 12 inches) and a few as small as 3 inches. Of those hooked, I wound/kill about 1 in 10. This is due to:
1) late strikes by tiny fish that hit my dry fly just before my back cast, thus getting flung behind me and smacked against the rocks. DOH!!
2) hooks that penatrate the eye or gills - generally when using large attractor patterns or terrestrials as well as larger wooly buggers

When spinner/spoon fishing, I catch about a third more fish, and they tend to be bigger. I've caught all my larger fish in this river by using spoons/spinners. (larger means 12 to 17inches)
Of those I catch with my ultra light spinning gear, I wound/kill about 1 in 15.

My point is, fly fishing is not always the safest way. The safest way is to just not use hooks. Or just stay home.

Not to beat a dead horse to death, but I have to agree with you PhishPhreak. I've been fishing selective fishery lakes with lures for 10 years. I can honestly say I can't remember ever having a trout swallow my lure, most of the time they are hooked in the corner of the mouth. I'm not saying it isn't possible to have them swallow the hook. Yes I've hooked fish in the eye, but I've hooked fish in the eye with a fly. In my the past 5 years I've been fishing flies I've probably had fish swallow my fly completely over 10 times. I agree there should be lakes that are strickly fly fishing, but there should be other quality lakes that allow single hook lures. Believe it or not there are people out there who enjoy throwing lures for C&R trout fishing. I don't buy the arguement about lures killing more fish than flies. I do believe ignorant fishers kill fish, regardless of choice of gear. One benefit to fly-fish only waters is they are a lot easier to enforce the regulations. I've seen a lot of the selective gear lakes where you know people are using bait, but they just happen to break off when you approach. Just my opinion

WOW! What a subject and what a different point of view. Myself, I fish mostly with bait. I also fish with lures. Someday, I would like to try my hand a flyfishing. At this point, I still purchase a hunting and fishing license yearly, but the future is in question.

According to the annual stocking reports, quite a large number of fish are being stocked in Washington lakes. Are these fish not for catching and keeping? What exactly will happen to a lake that is overpopulated and feed becomes short? It seems as though you are going to have alot of fish floating. Hmmm......

I don't begrudge someone the right to flyfish. I think someday I might really enjoy it. I also don't expect to be told that I cannot fish with bait. What's really bothersome to me is that nomatter where I turn, someone is trying to shove their point of view down my throat. How many years have we not had a problem with bait fishermen? Now it seems as though we have a few grumpy old men that believe that flyfishing is the ONLY way to conservation. I don't believe that eliminating the use of bait is going to solve the problem.

Quite a large number of lakes are stocked. Where does the revenue come from for the stocking, the jobs that are created by stocking, the maintenance of lakes and boat launches? Maybe if the general public was offended by issues like this, there would be even MORE budget cuts due to reduced revenue of lost license sales.

I am not opposed to making some lakes a restricted fishery with tackle and take restrictions, but taking the opportunity for children to effectively catch fish is wrong. Fishing is something that is especially handed down from father to son. The children are our future. Don't take this away from them.

I think by far, the problem of "floating fish" comes from the lack of enforcement. If there is no fear of consequences of regulation infraction, the few people that are causing the problems will continue their nasty habits of releasing fish that are caught using bait.

Although I do mostly use bait, yes...I do keep the first five fish that I catch. After that, my fishing day is over. The fish come home to be cooked for the family or go in the smoker.
Now I can come down off of my soap box...Thank you!

Father to son, eh? What am I, chopped liver? I fish, my boyfriend doesn't (though I'm trying as hard as I can to get him 'hooked', so to speak), there's a lot of fishing mothers and daughters out there too.

I don't think any offense was meant by omitting the feminine gender by the previous message. I have two sons and two daughters and I have taught them all how to fish, now I am working on my grandkids. I personally would love to see more women on the water, I just can't get the wife to go with me. LOL It seems like she enjoys it when I'm gone. I hope you and all women have a wonderful group of memories about this great sport.
Banock

I think you guys are taking this bait thing a little too seriously. Ive got a pond next to my house that i purchase trout for every year. I primarily fly fish with single barbless, and after hooking darn near every fish in the pond throughout the winter and spring i did not lose one fish from CNR. Note* Pond is 6 feet deep and bottom is rarely out of sight. I then switched to bait fishing for a week using nightcrawlers/eggs/PB and after hooking 30-40, only two fish died. Most fish swallowed bait and long needlenose pliers helped gently twist hook free without removing them from water or touching them.

Trout caught in cold/cool water are extremely resiliant if handled the right way. If you deep hook a fish with bait and net it then let it flop in the boat after squeezing it and ripping half its guts out, then sure, the fish will probably croak.

i think our fisheries need to be tailored to the amount of pressure a lake receives, wild fish present, location, and the size of the lake. If there are no wild fish left in a lake, then hatchery plants can sustain a put/take fishery. If a lake has a good population of wild fish, then selective rules need to be placed or total CNR. There should be enough different kinds of fisheries to make everyone happy.....just my .02

I just can't pass on this one! As for a baitban on some lakes I can agree with that,if and only if we can have a flyfishing ban on all the other waters. Don't get me wrong I love to fly fish but I don't feel we should condem people who don't fly fish as some underclass trailer trash that has no right to be on MY water. As far as flyfishing only as the ONLY way let me tell you. A strike indicator makes a pretty good bobber and all that fuzz on flys makes powerbait stay on really good. True its a little harder to cast than a spinning rod but you get the hang of it after a while. And you can kill as many and as fast with a flyrod as you can with any other gear. Sorry didn't mean to rant and rave but I do get tired of some of the snobish attitudes. A NOTE for Stacey I truley wish something could be done to clean up Kress's Lake's fishery my sons like to fish there but I almost refuse to go there anymore and never on a weekend. The last couple years it has gotten down right UGLY around the lake. I think it needs some serious enforcement. The stocked trout have been getting seriously abused and the kids are being taught to do it. Like sending kids to the car with a bag of fish so the parents can keep on fishing and pokeing your limit in the car and practicing c/r for the rest of the day just so someone else won't get your spot or holding the spot untill one of your buddies shows up. Like I said just down right UGLY! I for one don't want my boys to learn to fish this way. Ok done now I will put my soap box away.

MtnJoe,

Thanks for the information on Kress Lake. I will pass that on to the Captain. I know both Officers that work the area up there and I will have them start checking as much as they can.

This is a special lake and we want to make sure that kids and adult alike can go there without having to deal with any negative problems.

stace

Wow, A very interesting post from Mtnjoe. In one breath he sez it's wrong to
condem baiters as second class sportsmen/fishermen. In the next breath he points out
a number of "Issues" with the fishermen at Kress lake. These issues and a few others, I'm sorry to say, along with the fact you cannot possibly practice C&R conservation bait fishing (despite what
one poster claims) are what make me talk about bait fishers as though they were
the second class citizens of the fishing world. Of course throwing garbage everywhere,
hogging fish and fishing holes, killing fish to satisfy your need to fish beyond taking your limit,teaching the young disrespect for fish and other fishermen, etc.,etc. may be the new American sportsmanship, and I may be just another grumpy old fly fisherman as some have implied.

Still, I'll calls em as I sees em! Sorry!

Amen FishinFellaS.

signed,

another grump

Stacie: Wasn't the garbage problem on Klinline Ponds from baitfishermen deemed such a serious
problem by the City of Vancouver or the County of Clark that they approached the Dept.
of F&G to reduce or eliminate the stocking level in the ponds because it was becoming a
health hazard? Just curious! Seems to me it would be a shame to loose a fishing hole like
we have in several instances in E. Wash because landowners won't tolerate the pigs that fish
there trashing the landscape any longer.

FF,
I rarely say anything bad about anyone, but you are pushing this "superior attitude" of yours to the limit.
As far as motality by bait fishers, I guess its all in the way you fish. I personally watch my line and not the pole; in doing this I can tell when the fish is mouthing the bait, and set the hook at that time, not wait until it is swallowed. In fishing in this manner I have REPEATEDLY had the fish throw the hook before it reaches the boat or at the boat. So much for your KILL mentality concerning baiters. And, I really take offense to being called "second class fishers"!!! Who gave you the almighty power to think you are better than anyone else? Weren't we all created equal? I guess some feel that we've evolved above BARBARIANS. The word "discrimination" comes to mind when I read your posts--and I'm glad you on the east side.
Banock

Hi Everyone...

Our Program, works very hard to provide fishing opportunities for everyone. Both user groups are important to us. There are waters were we encourage catch and keep and there are waters where we encourage catch and release.

It makes me a bit sad to have to see an us and them situation between bait fishers and fly fishers. They are both relevant fisheries. They both encourage people to get out and get fishing. And that's what we want you guys(and gals) to do!

I feel it would be wrong to stereotype all bait fishers when there are a certain few who do not pick up their bait containers and leave areas messy.

Klineline has had a big problem with this. For those of you who are not familiar with the pond, it is an urban water that we generally stock with several thousand fish for local anglers. The gear of choice seems to be bait, although some anglers use lures and I have even seen a couple of fly fishers out there.

So a few anglers who leave the area messy, take fish over their limit or violate other regulations, make all the other anglers look bad.

Fishing is like any hobby. There are many ways to enjoy it. Some people have preferred ways. Others like to keep it simple. Either way, the most important thing is to follow the regulations, fish ethically, fish safely and take your kids fishing!!

I know several senior citizens that use Klineline and are VERY respectful bait fishers. The highlight of their day is to come down to the pond with their folding chairs and coolers and spend the day enjoying the outdoors. And darn it they have earned that right!!!

I know a lot of fly fishers that astound me with their ability and technique! Fly fishing looks really hard but they make it look simple and fun.

Encouraging other anglers to fish ethically is the way to go. Not everyone is going to do it. But if everyone does their part, it will make the experience that much better for everyone.

So, whether you catch and eat, or catch and release there is room for you all. We, as a Department, will provide the best opportunities we can for both user groups and do our best to educate about fishing ethics (which I am about to make into a new thread).

There are great fishing opportunities out there and whichever way you choose to enjoy them I hope that you get out there and have some fun.

Right on Stacie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Stacie, check my web site for some ideas on ethics and etiquette.
Banock

fishnfellaS, you should take your ill will and attitude towards bait fisherman over to the NW fishing board and see what kind of response you get. I'm sure calling all the salmon and steelhead fishermen over there non-sporting because they use bait will go over real well. I think this topic applies to that situation as well because of the hatchery vs. native issues surrounding our rivers. Good luck.

Why does it seem like all younger people like to pick on older type people. I used to use power bait but now I just fly fish and really enjoy it. When I take my granddaughter fishing at a put and take lake I let her use power bait as she won't touch any worms,and she isn't cordinated enough to fly fish. Besides by being a grumpy old man I don't have the patience to teach her. As my moniker says. old man.

My final post on this issue to the baiters whom I have incised.

I go out of my way to provoke your ire for several reasons.
1. You EARN little respect from me. You seem to think respect is a right.
It's not a right,it is earned by doing the right things.
Police your own, the sportsmen among you see the violations that have
been mentioned and do nothing The F&G Dept can't do it all. In some cases
the landowners of good fishing lakes and ponds are so sick of the pigs among
you they have closed off their waters.

2. Give way to more of our waters converting over to Quality fisheries. Support this
and enjoy it by learning to flyfish or single lure barbless lure fish and release
your catch correctly. You will never have quality fishing for your efforts to
progress to unless you do. I see too many of you complaining about small
fish. Do you not understand that you will never have a 15" fish to catch if
you jerk them out at 9" and eat them all.

3. Do not assume as one poster did that the F&G Dept. only function is to plant
a new batch of trout just for you to jerk out and eat and the world will come to an end if you don't
get em all this year, so F&G will have to plant a new batch next year. Learn
what conservation really is. I swear some of you must think it's saving your
hooks from rusting so you can use them over next time.
Part of it is the economics of running a meat program as F&G prioritizes their
efforts on currently. It's a loosing battle of diminishing returns.

Wish I could say it's been a good debate, but I can't.


Weather is improving......Etsssss fish!

Thanks Stace - you summed it up great!

Why do youngsters pick on older types..... fairly simple to me Jim. They have a problem with authority.

I've checked the profiles of a couple of the gripers on here. One is still a student, another is unemployed. A third one: I'm not sure of.

So, it's the standard thing of kids wanting to show their attitude.

They'd argue about it even it the statement was "they have five fingers on one hand".

I've got an idea... let's get an under 30 lake clean up going and see how many volunteer. I think the youngest on the first clean up was 42. Jim was the oldest.

I'm not sure how that relates to this discussion??

I know many more 50 and older fisherman who are bait fisherman that fly fisherman.

The point is, we all need to repect eachother, help teach others proper fishing ethics and respect for the environment, follow the regs, and how to safely enjoy the sport that we all love - no matter what particular form that takes on.

Zen, if you lost your job and were currently unemployed, would that make you any less of a responsible citizen?? what exactly do you mean to say with those kinds of comments??

i know that comment wasn't directed at me...but truthfully, are you that upset that you will resort to personal attacks?? whats next, name calling??

myself, i have never used powerbait (not because i have anything against it, i just havent gotten around to using it, thats all), but i do use bait sometimes, i also use hardware probably most of the time, and i also fly fish from time to time. i would NEVER look down on someone for the way they choose to pursue a fish, as long as they follow the regs like the rest of us do then that person is ok in my book.

Zen,
I am 52 years old and am fully employed, just for your information.
Banock

Hey guys, catch any fish lately? Thought not. Can't we all just be friends???? We are all grumpy, and fishin' season is just around the corner.

I regularly go both ways. Fly and spin. Both methods have their place, and I will always teach my sons that there is usually more than just one way to do something. Experiment, see what you like. Teach someone else who doesn't know what bait fishing is how to do it, teach them the effectiveness of spinners, or show them how to use a casting bubble for flies. If you don't know how to fish a particular method, ask someone.

The same argument comes up between bow and rifle hunter, guys who like the 9mm vs the .45 acp, and Ford vs Chevy. Do you think that the gentler sex, please take no offense Stacie, argues about whether a 10 amp vaccuum is needed for deep pile vs a 12 amp model? Well, if they do I would certainly be laughing at them.

Maybe we all need to take a trip to a trout farm.
Go catch a fish! Okay?

Zen, you still owe me a fly lesson. See, even Zen is doing his part.

Andy, the bi-fisherman.

No offence taken, although I couldn't tell you what horsepower my vacuum was. I'm not realy an active Domestic *******.

And while the guys in the office might argure you me being put among the gentler sex, I thank you!

HA HA HA HA

You are right. There are two sides to each activity. People can't be expected to like just ONE thing.

It's like my swordfighting. There aren't a lot of girls that do it, but there are a few. Now there is a certain group of guys that will say women do not belong on the battle field. Then you have a group that does support it. Doesn't mean one is more right than the other (although I will be more than happy to whoop some you know what for the ones that think we can't fight!).

We all just like different things. THANKFULLY!! Makes the world much more interesting.

Hey ******* isn't a bad word, how come the asteriks showed up!!!

Gees, I don't want someone to think I said a bad word!!

Fine, I'll spell it backwards ssedog.

Mike, what's up with that??

I find some of the attitudes very interesting. I will tell all of the people that think bait fishermen are slobs, when I return from the bank or boat launch, I ALWAYS return with more trash than I arrived with. I really can't believe that some people cannot pick up after theirselves. So please refrain from classifying all bait fishermen as slobs.

In short, I think that just like an opinion, I believe that we all should be able to fish in the manner that appeals to us. I believe fly fishermen have the right to fish that way, as I have the right to fish with bait (of course,on lakes that it is approved).

In my previous post, I did not mean to offend anyone concerning the father and son issue. I do realize that there are quite a few mothers and daughters that enjoy the sport also.

As for fishnfellas, I am also glad you are on the east side. I don't understand your attitude. Who are you to think that anyone is looking for YOUR respect? You need to come down off of your pedistal. It is easier to reach the water from down here where we are!

Dogfish,
I heard the other day that the pond at the end of old sand creek rd. had some pretty nice bass in it. Do you know anything about it.
Banock

Hey Zen, I think I'm probably the 3rd person in your profile quest and I didn't list an occupation because it's nobodys concern except my wife. I am under 30, 28 to be exact and have been at the same job for over 6yrs. If you can pick a lake to clean up in the north end and I'm not at work, I work alot of OT and weekends, I'll be there. I need more than a weeks notice though.

How about a little less time on the ol' computer and a little more time on the water actually doing a little fishing. GEEEEEEEEZZZZZ. :p

Stacie,
I have no idea why the filter does what it does. Seemed OK to me.
Thanks everyone for the interesting discussion. Even if you don't agree with what the other person is saying, at least you're getting a chance to hear it. And that isn't a bad thing. It floored me when I logged on and found 55 posts!

Mike and Stace - the 'g' word is blocked because it refers to a certain female 'guide' who recently flipped her drift boat on the OP. She is banned from Bob's PP site since she apparently caused a LOT of trouble over there...

Banock,

That lake in question is home to a fair number of bass AND bluegill. There are also some perch there. Never caught a trout there, but we will see. If you see a guy with two little boys in a green jonboat, that will be me. Andy

Now that the weather is warming up,I think that I will Start Fishing lakes or at least try. that way I won't spend tooo much time on this stupid computer.
I went out yesterday just to get out. I checked out a couple of lakes(just looking). And it was a good day.
What made it a good day is that I saw a couple of guys fishing the Snoqualmie River. I didn't stop and tell them that it was closed. I did tell the County Mountie though. I couldn't find a State Patrol Officer. Just an old man.

Mike, Stacie, I think I know why the mess up on Stacie posting ******!
There can only be one ****** on fishing forums and she already exists.
Hellofa fisherperson too I hear. I started it all by telling her one day that
The fish Gods were angry with her. Then she bacame the Fishing ******.
She's a computer geek and probably inflitrated your website so that
no one can ever use" ******" on it again. Har,Har,Har.

I'm still stirring this pot and haven't given up like FF did. Might mean he has more sense than me.

I see a couple of you responded to the "unemployed, student or no occupation" part of my last post. Must be a case of one thinking "if the shoe fits".. then it must be mine syndrome.

Stifler, while I don't think every unemployed person is a slacker, I do think the reverse.. that slackers are generally unemployed. I also think they have certain personality profiles, a general don't care attitude and an affinity to offer negative or contrary opinions about most things in life. I can generally categorize slackers or people with negative and contrary opinions to certain age groups too.

No, I don't think my last post was personal. But I do think the responses from several of other posters was. Like the one who said "don't let kids grow up to be flyfisherman". That was kinda juvenile and probably most readers recognized it as such. .

To HPB and Chad from Microsoft who offered to come along on the next clean up. Guess we'll see you there. If Mike shows, then you'll be famous and in pictures. Mike had a digital camera along the last time and shot pix of who was there and the amount of trash we gathered.

So, any others out there that thinks this shoe fits and want to try it on, or is it time for this thread to die.

It originally started because of some razzing I was getting from a March opener power bait trip I made. I declined on a trip with a bunch of my fly fishing buddies who went to a neighboring lake.

yours in fishing,