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#655275 - 01/17/11 06:28 PM Re: No Hood Canal Steelhead [Re: OncyT]
Hair Offline
Parr

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 46
Loc: Extremley Rightwing
Thank you Oncy T, I will. And I will post them here if I find them.

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#655285 - 01/17/11 06:49 PM Re: No Hood Canal Steelhead [Re: Hair]
OncyT Offline
Spawner

Registered: 02/06/08
Posts: 506

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#655304 - 01/17/11 07:43 PM Re: No Hood Canal Steelhead [Re: OncyT]
Hair Offline
Parr

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 46
Loc: Extremley Rightwing
Thank you for the links Oncy T, very helpful. Looks like the jury's still out on what the variety of possible outcomes will be for long term supplementation. There's a lot of wiggle room between 40% and over 90% of WxW productivity.


I found this quote HERE
Quote:

What happens to young steelhead after they leave their streams is a question that has intrigued biologists for years. To get at the answers, researchers have implanted tiny transmitters into a few fish and set up receivers to track their movements.

"We're finding that about 25 percent of the fish that reach Hood Canal are not making it past the Hood Canal bridge," Berejikian said. "Half the fish that make it to the bridge don't make it past Pillar Point (west of Port Angeles in the Strait of Juan de Fuca)."

The fish seem to take about two weeks to swim to the Hood Canal bridge, where it appears a good number are probably eaten by other species, he said. After the Hood Canal bridge, they speed up and travel to Pillar Point in about five days, though it isn't clear how many fish that don't arrive are killed and how many just stop along the way.

Berejikian said he is looking for funding to study whether the structure of the Hood Canal bridge causes behavioral changes that make steelhead vulnerable to predation. In any case, if the steelhead program continues on a successful path, the populations should rise, he said.


Interesting. Quite the percentage of loss to predators, or whatever. I'm struggling to see how a study focused on every single returning parent could get past an obstacle so influential on the numbers, like + 75% loss during out-migration.

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#655322 - 01/17/11 08:49 PM Re: No Hood Canal Steelhead [Re: Hair]
SBD Offline
clown flocker

Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 3743
Loc: Water
"Interesting. Quite the percentage of loss to predators, or whatever. I'm struggling to see how a study focused on every single returning parent could get past an obstacle so influential on the numbers, like + 75% loss during out-migration."



Wow someone who gets it, everyone is so focused on selective fishing the real problem is just oblivious. Take a 100000 smolts 80/20 H/W and remove 95-98% of them non-selectively from predation, what the heck do you get back? Cutting hatchery releases won't fix it, total numbers will just keep dropping, plus the predators still need to eat so they turn to other species.
_________________________


There's a sucker born every minute



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#655345 - 01/17/11 10:10 PM Re: No Hood Canal Steelhead [Re: SBD]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4394
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
Meet how wild Chum got blasted in Willapa by the birds. Take H out of the pool all that is left is W and birds still eat.

Catch 22
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#655352 - 01/17/11 10:29 PM Re: No Hood Canal Steelhead [Re: Rivrguy]
FireFish Offline
Fry

Registered: 12/03/06
Posts: 31
Loc: Puyallup
Hood Canal is not alone on the High Mortality Rates on Steelhead Smolt. It is becoming apparent through our discussions on NWwildcountry with those who have a hand in Fisheries Management throughout Puget Sound, there is a huge, mostly misunderstood problem. The Acoustic Tagging Program, that we discussed in depth, paints a picture and is a component producing data that some have faith in and others are not so certain. The High Mortality in Hood Canal is right in line with Steelhead Smolt leaving the Puyallup, Nisqually and Green River basins as well. Some of the numbers I gathered from the Fisheries Managers in each of those systems, indicated as little as 6% to 10% survivability actually making it to the Straits, to migrate out. Some rivers have been shown to have numbers in the 60% to 75% outbound migrating Steelhead Smolt at the mouth, and as they migrate through the 150 miles of Puget Sound to make it to the Straits, it falls to that confusing 6% to 10%. The hardest thing to understand is that these smolt are on the move. So much so, they can make it from the Nisqually or Puyallup, to the Straits in 7 to 12 days, and yet the overall mortality is 75%.

FireFish...
_________________________
Working Hard to Get Our 50% of the Fish Back

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#655354 - 01/17/11 10:30 PM Re: No Hood Canal Steelhead [Re: FireFish]
FireFish Offline
Fry

Registered: 12/03/06
Posts: 31
Loc: Puyallup
Again, Hood Canal is on the Agenda to be discussed in Depth, in the NWwildcountry Studio, in the next few weeks. Saturdays show will focus on the Sauk and Skagit however some of that information carries throughout Puget Sound. Be sure to tune in.

FireFish...
_________________________
Working Hard to Get Our 50% of the Fish Back

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#655369 - 01/17/11 11:01 PM Re: No Hood Canal Steelhead [Re: FireFish]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
I'm not sure that anyone's demonstrated that 90% mortality on outgoing smolts out of Puget Sound actually is a problem...it might be a perfectly normal number, it may have always been that way...but historically there hundreds of millions of wild smolts leaving Puget Sound, so if only ten percent of them survived, it would still have been millions and millions of smolts.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#655377 - 01/17/11 11:17 PM Re: No Hood Canal Steelhead [Re: Todd]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Have to agree with Todd. We now have some numbers for steelhead smolt. No idea what the mean in an historical context.

And, most of the discussion still seems to be guided by the idea that steelhead are salmon.

The really strong steelhead populations currently in existence (Situk, Kamchatka, Argentina) share one thing in commen; half or more of the returning adults are repeat spawners. Based on that, maybe a smolt-adult survival of 5% can work; if enough fish survive to repeat spawn. Remove them from the equation, and you get extinction.

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#655383 - 01/17/11 11:25 PM Re: No Hood Canal Steelhead [Re: Todd]
SBD Offline
clown flocker

Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 3743
Loc: Water
It's a problem when 90% of the habitat is gone, sure there's some basins that have very good habitat and some that are almost completely destroyed like the upper Columbia. But once smolts hit the open water they all become just food.
_________________________


There's a sucker born every minute



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#655387 - 01/17/11 11:29 PM Re: No Hood Canal Steelhead [Re: ]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
You could end all harvest, remove virtually all the predators, stop planting clouds of hatchery fish, and steelhead leaving the Columbia River will still be in the $hitter...the dams remove 90% of them before they even get to the estuary, where they are then subject to the "normal" levels of mortality...

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#655392 - 01/17/11 11:36 PM Re: No Hood Canal Steelhead [Re: ]
FireFish Offline
Fry

Registered: 12/03/06
Posts: 31
Loc: Puyallup
There are obviously many issues, Habitat, Over Harvest, Smolt Mortality, Water Quality, they all weigh in. There is the huge unkown of what truly is natural or natures history of outbound smolt mortality. However, in comparison, the Coastal Streams, all be it if we don't change some of the Management Practices etc. could be heading in the directionof Puget Sound, tend to have a much higher return. It would be interesting to all ready have the outbound smolt mortality of our Coastal Rivers to use as a comparision, if for nothing else other then to help understand what percentage is perhaps normal.

FireFish...
_________________________
Working Hard to Get Our 50% of the Fish Back

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#655394 - 01/17/11 11:38 PM Re: No Hood Canal Steelhead [Re: ]
FireFish Offline
Fry

Registered: 12/03/06
Posts: 31
Loc: Puyallup
Originally Posted By: AuntyM
I was thinking wild steelhead on the OP shouldn't be harvested at the current levels Todd.

I don't think the CR/Snake dams are coming out any time soon.


5 days a week M... Ya think we'll see that stop anytime soon....

FireFish...
_________________________
Working Hard to Get Our 50% of the Fish Back

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#655395 - 01/17/11 11:39 PM Re: No Hood Canal Steelhead [Re: ]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Originally Posted By: AuntyM
I was thinking wild steelhead on the OP shouldn't be harvested at the current levels Todd.

I don't think the CR/Snake dams are coming out any time soon.


On rivers like the Hoh, where the habitat is in the main pretty good, overharvest the number one issue for those fish.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#655400 - 01/17/11 11:43 PM Re: No Hood Canal Steelhead [Re: FireFish]
FireFish Offline
Fry

Registered: 12/03/06
Posts: 31
Loc: Puyallup
Coastal vrs Puget Sound. I think form what they know thus far and are still figuring out, Over Harvest, in Puget Sound Rivers, is not todays problem. It helped set the table, form the 80's & 90's for where we are, however, there are other things going on that continue to produce such small returns in all rivers.
You think anyone will wake up and not let the Harvest Management Plans take the Coastal Rivers to the Brink, Much like what we are talking about here..

FireFish...
_________________________
Working Hard to Get Our 50% of the Fish Back

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#655401 - 01/17/11 11:44 PM Re: No Hood Canal Steelhead [Re: Todd]
FireFish Offline
Fry

Registered: 12/03/06
Posts: 31
Loc: Puyallup
Originally Posted By: Todd
Originally Posted By: AuntyM
I was thinking wild steelhead on the OP shouldn't be harvested at the current levels Todd.

I don't think the CR/Snake dams are coming out any time soon.


On rivers like the Hoh, where the habitat is in the main pretty good, overharvest the number one issue for those fish.

Fish on...

Todd


Couldn't agree More... The HoH and several others..

FireFish..
_________________________
Working Hard to Get Our 50% of the Fish Back

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#655406 - 01/17/11 11:53 PM Re: No Hood Canal Steelhead [Re: ]
FireFish Offline
Fry

Registered: 12/03/06
Posts: 31
Loc: Puyallup
Your exactly right. Managing our Fisheries to ensure "Waisted Fish" don't make it to gravel. Every fish has a price tag on it's head. They know they only need X number to spawn to ensure the run will sustain and they manage it down to the very last fish.
It comes down to money, not conservation.....

When is the last time you heard an Fisheries Manager or Biologist make the Statement, "We have to change our way of managing our Fisheries, we have way to many fish hitting the gravel"...

FireFish...
_________________________
Working Hard to Get Our 50% of the Fish Back

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#655408 - 01/17/11 11:59 PM Re: No Hood Canal Steelhead [Re: Todd]
coondog Offline
Parr

Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 45
Loc: mason county
I think the fish eating birds take far more fry think pepole realize. I used to shoot as many as I could as a kid growing up on the Cowlitz, when I squeeze the belly the fry would shoot out like a fountain. The cormerants have to just as bad or worse. Last fall I watched small flock feeding on a Mason county lake and about every 4 or 5 dives at least one of them would come up with a fish, between them and the mergansers that is going to take a big chunk of fry and smolts.
_________________________
DUM DUM

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#655409 - 01/18/11 12:00 AM Re: No Hood Canal Steelhead [Re: FireFish]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Actually, FF, I have heard managers more than once say we put too many fish on the spawning grounds.

And, to my mind, the harvest of salmon is exerting a huge detrimental effect on steelhead. Killing too many fish is still killing too many fish.

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#655418 - 01/18/11 12:20 AM Re: No Hood Canal Steelhead [Re: Carcassman]
FireFish Offline
Fry

Registered: 12/03/06
Posts: 31
Loc: Puyallup
Your right, in that they look at to many fish on the gravel as lost opportunity or lost dollars and cents. The other side of that, as in harvesting to many salmon, depleats the needed nutriant base right out of the system. Hard for fry to grow after they hatch out when there is no food in the river for them to feed on...

FireFish...
_________________________
Working Hard to Get Our 50% of the Fish Back

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