First let me say I am new to the area and trying to learn all the regulations.

I bought a little 11' Boston Whaler recently with a 20HP motor. The little boat currently has wheel steering with cables etc. Not possible to slip it off like a smaller tiller unit. I want to fish near Bellevue. Lake Washington and Sammamish seem a bit too big. Checked out Pine lake but with my jeep off the bank the little boat was still off the water. Drove over to Beaver lake and launched OK. Sign says no gasoline motors or something similar. We propped the unit up out of the water and fished with the electric. Another fisherman told me to check the regulations as the motor must be removed from the boat to use the lake, same at Rattlesnake. I checked the regulations and sure enough that's the letter of the law. I called Fish and Game. They said they used to allow wrapping the raised motor in a plastic bag but the Dept of Ecology says that isn't enough.

Question: Why such a rule. Is this really a valid concern or just BS? Are there any sportsman's groups who are trying to stop what appears to be over-regulation?

Anybody else feel the same way? No flames please. I'm just trying to understand the thinking on this rule. I've never seen anything like all the rules and regulations here.

Anybody suggest some alternative lakes?

Thanks

Ghageman, Where do you hale from originally? And yes there is a valid reason for this rule. Some of these lake's are small and the eco system couldn't handle the oil and fuel that leak's into them. It effect's the bug hatches fresh water snails and etc.. the very food chain that some of our fresh water game fish depend on. Or it could be native trout are in danger, cutthroat or other specie's, nothing like a coat of petrol to help out the eggs or the small fry. Some of the eco system's in the northwest are very fragile and these rule's are put into effect to protect them. I'm sure Stacey could give even a better explanation than that , but I beleive that pretty much cover's it. So I hope that you enjoy the pristine water's that are available in the northwest and come to enjoy them as much as we do. What seem's to be your favorite type of fish to go after? Take Care.

Should have just gone to Lake WA or Sammamish. Then you won't have to worry about it.

Pristine? I wish. I think a covered motor has no effect on the ecosystem. What does have an effect is all the idiots that dump there line and wieghts and garbage in the lake. Now that's something to work on. It's a crock that people just don't give a crap. Fishing line kills more wildlife that a motor out of the water ever could. BUT NOOOOOOOOOOO it's too dang hard to pick up line and put it in your pocket. But it seems even harder for these bozos to let anything go either. If you fish and your goal is to fill your stringer so you look cool for your buddies, then i'd say you don't have enough respect for the environment and are probably one of the many that discard ciggarets, beer cans and your favorite bird nest in to the lake.

Is it the motor or the people that own the motor? Why follow the limit law when you break the littering law? Is breaking one and not the other, better? Witnessing these idiots is probably what enforced that law in the first place. I had a dream and it was pristine, then i woke up.

I agree with Carl. Lake Samm would be a good bet. I've seen many small fishing boats out there including my own canoe w\ trolling motor and never had a problem. Also, jump on 18 and head over to Meridian. That's a fun lake to fish as long as the jet skiers aren't out in force (same with Samm).

FFF - are you trying to say that those who own a motor don't respect the environment? Or those who like to eat fish don't respect the environment? I agree that there are way to many slobs out there, but I'm really not sure what point you are trying to make.

One of the best things about areas that are posted as no motor is there are no people cruzing the lake on jetskis, waterskis ect. Motors beyond being dirty are loud and in smaller waters that can be disruptive fish in general and spawning specificly. I was just fishing Cambell Lake, not having much luck I went over to Pass Lake and tossed some feathers. With such limited fishable shore I was frustrated that I couldn't slide my boat in and use my eletic motor. Then it hit me the no motors of any kind rule was part of the reason it was such a desirable lake to fish. Saw some HUGE browns hugging the shore!

Generally this rule applies to the smaller lakes simply to avoid jet ski, water ski, high powered bass boat use.

Is it fair? Depends on your point of view I guess. There are PLENTY of waters (reservoirs) to use boats with motors. There is an environmental concern with allowing motors to be tilted up as you motor along with your electric motor. It may not seem that big of deal to have a little oil/fuel leak, but in reality it is.

DOE could probably give you a lot of info in that area.

stace

I'm from Missouri and we've got a saying back there "Show Me".

If oil and gas in such minute quantities are so bad for these lakes why is it not so bad for other lakes? Are the other states doing the same thing? I've not seen it. I don't believe Washington is the only state that is concerned over these issues. Why does the WDFW use a gas motor to run their work boats on these lakes? Shouldn't they be setting an example for the rest of us? Ever seen a WDFW boat with oars? The waters I've seen here are very clean and I understand this requires oversight and protection, but this is too much. Missouri and many other states I've visited have some great fishing but much more reasonable regulations. In fact, since I was a little fellow and still true today, their entire hunting and fishing regulations, including trapping and commercial, fit easily into a shirt pocket. Judging from what I've seen and read, Missouri is considered one of the most succesful of fish and game managers. Seems like there would be a number of groups challenging some of this stuff in court.

Just for the record: I'm all in favor of any reasonable requirements that can be shown to be of real benefit. What rankles me is when I'm told to "do it cause I said so".

Good questions.

We do work in the lakes for a reason - to develop and maintain the fisheries. In order to do that we need specific boats, boats that cannot be used with oars. That is why we are allowed on these waters with motors.

Lakes are decided on a case by case basis. Interestingly the majority of this kind of regulation request comes from the pubic in part due to two factors: noise and pollution.

At our public meetings for regulation changes, we listened to a few different groups that want no motors allowed on two of our lakes: Merrill and Kress. Merrill has a dusk/night fishery involved around certain hatches - float tubers did not want to be getting ran over by big boats motoring to the ramp.

When you have popular lakes like, Goose Lake for instance, you tend to get a lot of traffic. Now, if everyone dropped in a boat with a motor flipped up, there is the possibility of causing some water problems. The Forest Service made this lake an electric motor lake only in part due to pollution concerns. You will find this regulation mostly on smaller waters.

As far as being told to do something, these regulations go through lengthy reviews not only by the Department but by the public. Each rule is brought up in public meetings for discussion. You were obviously not even in this state when some of the regulations came to pass, therefore, you were not a part of those discussions. So, now you are in a position where you are being told to do something because we said so.

It's not really like that though. I hope that you will be involved in upcoming regulation meetings and have a voice. And if there is a reg you don't like, you certainly have the right and ability to propose a change. But it isn't like we are telling you to obey because we said so. The public said so as well, in a lot of instances.

Hope this gives a little more insight for you.

stace

Gary,
Welcome to the board. After reading your questions and comments from others, it seems to me that you have enough information to do some research on the topic....specifically regarding damage to rivers and lakes created by engine usage. Another point (made by Stacie) was that some regulations are in place primarily to limit use by people with power toys, which I must say I am all in favor of since a certain percentage of the population does not excercise good judgement and/or discretion in this regard. If you come across some good information on the topic please share it with us.
JMS

I guess that explains why the townspeople aren't coming up the drive with tourches(yet). I have had several people tell me they just don't fish anymore.

Reason #1 is usually "it's too much trouble."

Gary - between the huge number of people in this state and the variety of fishing and hunting opportunities we have, I really don't think a 'one size fits all' approach would be too practical.

Those of us who love fishing and have been in this state for a while memorize the regs on our favorite haunts and know we must check the reg book before trying a new peice of water...

I guess that explains why the townspeople aren't coming up the drive with torches (yet). I have had several people tell me they just don't fish anymore.

Reason #1 is usually "it's too much trouble"
- concerning all the regulations, openings and closings, last minute updates, etc etc etc.

Reason #2 is usually "and too expensive"
- here I disagree. Costs money to make these things work. In Missouri the people voted for funds and this has paid off. It seems to me you need more help.

Here is the point: Do you want to take a preservationist or conservationist stance. If conservation and managment is your goal then it seems to me you want to keep the people eager to
buy licenses and vote for more improvements. That means keeping it simple and fun for your customers.

Limiting traffic on different bodies of water by motor types seems a fine idea to me. I can understand the concerns of the floaters, especially at night. Although I rarely saw anyone fishing from a float tube back home. Too many water snakes.

Washington is not the only state, Check Oregon and Idaho. There are quite a few lake's with electric motor's only or no motor's at all. And if you enjoy the sport and want to help make it better it's not that big of a deal to check the regulations. Also in the Northwest there are Fly Fishing only lake's, and artificial lure's and fly's only and each one creates a different challange. There are also lake's where you can only keep one fish and it has to be a certain length. And don't forget the lake's with barbless hook's only. And guess what people still fish there. So I guess it's just a matter of what type of fisherie you desire, so I guess you can say the Northwest offer's a wide range of fisherie's a little something for everyone. And to tell you the truth I've enjoyed it for many year's and will continue to do so. Take Care.

I'm from New York, lived in Montana for two years recently and Pennsylvania last year. All three of those states had no motor and electric motor only waters. I think it helps people looking for a quiet place to enjoy the water wether fishing or not.

PhishPhreak, no i'm not against motors. I have one one my 16ft but i hate that the regs say i now can't fish all the lakes i fished when i was a kid because of a motor on my boat. I think a bag over the motor and plugging the fuel vents would work just fine. I wash my motor and fuel vents and fish these lakes sometimes. My motor never touches the water. I don't see what's wrong with that. It's everything else i see, is what bothers me, like a bald eagle at angle lake with fishing line wrapped around it's leg,sad. And keeping a limit is fine. But keeping every living thing isn't. Why ruin what makes you happy? Why keep everything? That just ensures that there will never be any big fish in numbers. I do see alot of people with there motors in the lake on a restricted lake and still trolling with their electric. That's plain dumb. And they ALWAYS have a fuel slick around them. Just ignorance and disrespect for the environment that they expect to produce them a "good day" of fishing. "THEY" may include me to a degree because i have dissagreed with the law that affects all of us but atleast i care about the environment enough to take the steps to make sure i leave it cleaner than the way i found it. Sorry if i sounded all pissy but it's hard to express this concern without seeming like i'm yelling it at everyone.LOL It's just sad we are limited by other peoples careless actions.

I just wish WDFW regs would mirror county/city ordinances. That would make every ones life a little easier.

Maybe make a suggestion for that to the higher ups Stace?

I'm with ya FFF. Unfortuneately some folks will never get it. I guess that's why we really do need a variety of regs - even if we don't always like them.

Carl - consistency accross agencies would be nice - huh. So would world peace

I know that we regulate the fisheries and not the lakes themselves (unless we own the lake).

That might be why you see differences between WDFW regs/county-city regs.

That makes sense to make them mirror each other though. I will check into that and see what I can find out.

I will post back as soon as I do!

stace

THANK YOU! Stacie

I just had to reply to this one. I'm a new member and enjoy reading the posts from time to time.
But I just have to voice a huge amount of frustraion in the "system" and how stupid some "no motor" restrictions are. On small lakes, no problem, no complaints from me, I can plainly see the point. But about 2 years ago I fished Coldwater in Cowlitz county I believe. This lake is quite large and regularly gets very rough and windy I'm told. I saw a sign at the boat launch restricting gas motors on the lake. But I had just driven 2 1-2 hours and was not about to turn around a go home. I have an 18 1/2 ft boat w/ a 100hp outboard and a small electric troller. So in attempting to comply with the restriction tilted the OB completely out of the water and trolled around with the electric. After a couple of hours a small 12-14 ft aluminum boat w/ a 20-25 hp outboard launched and came over to where I was fishing (under gas motor power mind you) and ordered me off the lake because of my motor (that was tilted up). I believe him to be from Fish and Game or Forest Service judgeing by the brown uniform. So being quite far from the boat launch and only having electric power I made my way back. I watched their boat make 4-5 trips all the way to the far end of the lake shuttling crews to work on trails at that end. The restrictions apparently do not apply to them only the suckers that buy licenses. Their motor put out 100 times the amount of gas/oil that mine would if it was leaking fuel, which it was'nt. I cant tell you how much this BS fires me up. For a state or Govt. agency to enforce rules they dont even comply with themselves is sickening and sets such a poor example that they should be ashamed. I understand that somebody has to enforce the rules for everybodys safety, but in a lake this large a motor restriction makes NO SENSE. Interactions like this one put a very bad taste in my mouth and jade any future decisions I might make to pay out hundreds of dollars each year to hunt and fish in this state.
Thanks for the oppourtunity to ventilate.
FM

FM, I know what you mean. I have a ton of frustration in regards to this topic.

Here is what is frustrating for me. As you know I am on the other side of the boat... so to speak.

As an agency, we as well as the Forest Service have a duty to the public. That is to provide recreational opportunities. There is the expectation from the public that we not only provide these opportunities, but, that we also maintain them.

This includes, keeping trails clean, keeping rest areas clean, monitoring fisheries within the lakes and streams, stocking fish, maintaining as safe an area as possible among a hundred other things.

Those jobs are a small percent of all the things that we have to do in our daily duties. So, we have to do these tasks as efficiently, but as quickly as possible.

This is why we and other agencies are allowed to use motors on waters that the public is not allowed to. So we can get to the work area, get the work done and move on to the next work area. If Coldwater Lake or Kress Lake were the only waters that we had to maintain then sure, we could use a rowboat to get to the end of the lake and maintain trails and to electroshock fish to monitor fish populations because we would have all the time in the world to do them.

But that is not the case. We have literally hundreds of bodies of waters that we have to take care of.

It's not like we are flaunting the fact that we get to go on a body of water using a motor or disobeying rules. We are out there to do a job, a job I might add, that is to benefit the public's recreational experience.

I get a lot of complaints like this and sometimes I just don't understand them. It is not realistic to expect us to use an electric motor to power a 18 ft. several thousand pound boat to monitor a population of fish that we are trying to provide for the public's fishing opportunity. In a lot of cases we are on restricted motor waters at a minimum of a few times a YEAR.

At any rate, there's another side to consider.

stace

Point taken!

I agree with the restrictions on motors in certain lakes. I have the fun of working at a service shop and half the boats that come in need alot of repair work done. Most elect not to do the repairs(leaking prop shaft seals) etc etc.
Alot of outboards when tilted up leak fuel from there carbs when in position. Very few boats have ZERO oil ,fuel leaks. My 2 cents worth.

Stace, I appriciate the job that you do, and the fact that you took the time to respond to mine and others frustration on this topic. I am also a publicly paid employee and know all too well the current standard of having to do more and more with less and less. No doubt in my mind that fish and game has too much to do with not enough funding or people to do this job with. But this is an area that is quite hypocritical to me. Its comparable to a cop arresting a drunk driver while being intoxicated himself. Whats good for the public should be good for the folks charged with enforcing policy/law. And if Forest Service/Fish and Wildlife cant abide by the law, they shouldnt come down on the public (who PAYS for the system) for doing the same. I will never question the quality and quantity of work you have to do, but this is simply a matter of FAIRNESS. Again I appriciate your job and your dedication its plain to see, I just hope you can see my point is all. Thanks again
FM

Let's see, 1 boat with a well maintained motor a few times a year vs 100s (or thousands) of boats with many poorly maintained motors per year. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

A better comparison would be:
a cop car, or ambulance racing to an emegency scene - should they be forced to follow the speed limit and come to a complete stop, ect...

Have you ever been on a trail that does not allow motorized vehicles or horses? I sure enjoy those trails sometimes. And I am able to enjoy them because they occassionally use horses\mules and motorized vehicles to haul in supplies to fix bridges, ect...

It's not a double standard - it's working smart and efficiently.

But don't get me started on the motor boats used in Green Lake by the crew team coaches. That's a whole other story

Hey Phish Phreak-
Youve got to be kidding. Its a complete double standard that PISSES people off.

Are you seriously comparing a response by trained Emergency driving certified personnel to a Emergency life and death scene to a boat floating on the water??!!

The fact remains that if its SO critical to make a blanket rule for everyone, then EVERYONE should have to follow the rule, and trail maintenance and convienience is not a good enough reason to justify breaking the rules. Damage to the environment is what it is, weather its done by Joe fisherman or Joe gamie, it either should or should not be allowed.

When law enforcement officers take an oath it is to uphold and enforce the law and that goes for themself. NO BODY is above the law, including Fish and Wildlife, Forest Service, Park Ranger etc. Thats all Im saying.

To me THAT'S a no brainer.

Just a quick note.

Emergency vehicles are by law not allowed to speed and must stop at lights etc.

But if we stopped them for speeding and running lights no one would ever call for help again and people would die.

So in short using motors on motor restricted waters by Fish and Game and other public agencies for their short intervals to help the lands and water is something I can live with.

I can't say I understand your point of view, but I do respect that it is your point of view.

And I don't agree, but that's okay too!

I still think there is a difference between working and recreating - but maybe I am just too darned biased. Personally, I don't feel like I am breaking a law - especially because I am doing something to provide for the public.

Glad to have known your thoughts either way though.



stace

fish medic - I didn't say my analogy was perfect, just better than yours...

There are plenty of issues out there worth coming together as sportsman and fighting for. Choose your battles carefully, or you just end up sounding like a chronic complainer - and make it harder for the real issues to get addressed.

Like Stacie, I respect your opinion, but I also respectfully disagree.

Stace - any chance we can get you transfered to King county?

Well, probably not.

But thanks for the thought anyway!

I have a pretty good gig here in the southern part of the state - but will always be willing to help anyone not in my area!!

stace

Phish, and Stace,

I as well appriciate and respect your respective opinions. I doubt in this forum we will convince the other that our points of view are the right ones. But apparently, judging from the number of posts, this issue touches a nerve in people one way or another. Nothing stirs up more emotions and debate than when whatever subject involves the appearence of fairness and consistancy (except maybe religion and politics). I added my 2 cents to this topic after a negative experience I had a couple of years ago at Coldwater, and to this day it has left a sour taste about motor usage on motor banned lakes and who exactly that applies to.

Stace, you do a good job of representing the WDFW's point of view and explaining to the lay-sportsman where WDFW is comming from. I for one really appriciate that.

Phish Phreak, I hear you, but just disagree is all.
I dont believe there's anything wrong with questioning the status quo to improve what needs improving, and eliminating what needs to go. Its good to have this forum to exchange ideas and perspectives.

Later,
FM

right on bro