Here is your answer plain and simple, I'll say it again. The hate stems from the fact that lining/flossing/snagging doesnt coincide with the ethics of hook and line fishing, which historically means getting a fish to bite at what is perceived as food (or in some cases a threat) with its mouth. It has nothing to do with morality or elitism. NCD, and perhaps others seem to have gotten lost on that there topic.

+1 to Dan.

The police always think they are the moral high road judge!

Check it out...I am right. Flossers are snaggers, and snaggers are not sportfishermen.

I do have the moral high road on this one...because I am right. I don't give a flying fukk if the snaggers don't like it, nor do I care if they have pissant pansyasses who are unable to pull their heads out of their asses saying that they can snag if they want, because they're too weak and/or ignorant to stand up for what is right.

Fish on...

Todd

P.S. Any snaggers out there that are using any tackle from my company to do so can contact me asap for a full refund, and send me back the stuff...I don't want anything I do to contribute to those dimwits bringing our sport down into the gutter with them.

your kind of treading the edge with your hang back method, it`s legal in some waters and illegal in others if the fish is hooked out side the mouth depending on the rules, i personaly think it`s snagging.

Are there people out that there who really think/believe that the Lake Wa sockeye are flossed?

Please tell me that you're joking?

Please.


Next time the season is open, I'll post a video how how to catch a Lake Wa. sockeye trolling as fast you'd ever want to go with the end result of a 2/0 siwash hook embedded in the upper jaw (eye and brain) of all the sockeye caught.

No bare hooks involved. No scents or magic.

Lethal as all hell, but those fish are for harvest and not C&R so I have no problem with it. (it being the lethal technique, not flossing).

Can someone explain to me why they think flossing takes no skill, or less skill than any other method of "legitimate" angling? I've never done it (knowingly, at least), so maybe I'm just assuming it's actually harder than it is.

I mean, I can cast a worm out into a lake and wait for a bite a hell of a lot easier than drifting a line into a fish's mouth.

Does the increased skill needed for the floss make it "more sporting" than the bobber/worm fishing?

You take your non-biting fish kegged up in a hole facing upstream and you drift your 8' leader with a corky through it. Fish opens mouth to breathe, your line comes in contact...you get the idea.

The real skill shows when one can tell that said leader is flossin em through the mouth as opposed to sliding over and eventually up into their assholes.

another moot point introduced by a choppy segue not relative to the argument at hand..But totally agree with your statement on Outsiders.

We here are all on the inside of the sportfishing circle...and any "sportfishermen" who snag are not sportfishermen, and any sportfishermen who support their desire to be snaggers are almost as bad.

Snaggers are an embarrassment to the sportfishing world.

Fish on...

Todd

I would say that it takes some skill.....with some I'm sure it's a honed craft. That does not qualify it as being right, however.
Personally, I hate it more than hillbilly jerk snagging because some practiced flossers can do it right under the public's nose and get away with it.....it's harder to police.

On average, it definitely takes less skill to floss as compared to the skill required to apply actual fishing techniques.

Of course not, but people were saying it's not "sporting" because it takes little or no skill.



Why does the "average" matter? Why not say bobber & worm lake fishing takes less skill than flossing a fish, and is therefore "less sporting?" and equally "wrong?"

People just seem to be drawing their lines whereever they want them, without any justification. If it's not about fish mortality and not about level of skill required, what makes something "sporting" or "right?"

Saying "I'm right" and "fishing = what I say" over and over isn't really very convincing.

NCD misses the boat in regards to flossing being a sporting activity. Those who choose to do it may consider it sporting, but they are missing the same boat. The only relevance that ethics have in regards to recreational angling is that the people with clout and influence end up determining what the fishing regulations are, so the regulations are a reflection of that group's sporting ethic.

A simple examination of the history of sport fishing and hunting traditions instantly explains why flossing is not sport fishing. Sport fishing and hunting are defined in large part by the body of sporting tradition. In order to be a sport fisherman or sport hunter, you are necessarily obligated to respect the traditions. The highest aspect of these traditions are the rules of "fair chase." The forefathers of hunting and fishing for sport concluded that fair chase prohibits baiting deer and elk, prohibits shooting a "sitting" duck or other waterfowl, and limits sport fishing to angling with a hook and line such that the fish willingly strikes or takes the bait, lure, or fly into its mouth. Therefore, flossing, lining, snagging, and any other form of taking fish that don't willingly strike the lure is not sport fishing.

One may wish to argue that concepts evolve, and I won't argue with that. I think it's self evident that snaggers of some sorts are attempting to "evolve" or modernize the traditions of sport fishing to include their favored practice. And then hard cores here like Todd and others, are fundamentalists, insisting on adherence to the ethic as defined in the sporting tradition of fair chase. Only time will tell who wins and who loses this contest of wills.

As for Aunty's insistence of the perverse humor in arguing over which form of torture is more ethical is a related, yet different argument. The issue she introduces is not about sporting tradition and fair chase. The issue she brings is actually a bit higher on the social ethics scale. That issue is usually called "killing for sport." (Which does include CNR if that's not obvious.) That segment of society, and maybe all of civilization, that opposes killing for sport lumps all sport fishermen, snaggers, and hunters into the same group of low lifes. Maybe they're right, but I think they're wrong. However, my explanation of the positive value of the blood sports - hunting and fishing - is likely perceived by them as merely a self-serving rationalization for an activity that I like to do. We've gotten into that before, but this thread is not the best place to drag that all out again.

Sg

has anyone ever bonked a wild steelhead while flossing out of a sled on a OP river ?

I think Todd, DD, and others spelled it out quite clearly in their initial posts...why a 7 page debate on the matter?

Fishing = a willing fish bites your hook
Flossing = your hook bites an unwilling fish

If you're hooking an unwilling fish, you're not fishing, you're flossing/snagging. Flossing/snagging is only done by non-fishermen who can't catch fish legitimately.


Doc, this is kinda splitting hairs here but I don't think your hangback method should be mentioned on a flossing thread and I wouldn't even use the words "floss" and "hangback" in the same sentence. Flossing implies that the fish is an unwilling biter and the fish you catch with your hangback method are obviously pursuing your offering.

Parker, I used to think the Lk WA sockeye were being flossed too, but ondarvr's similar post a couple years ago about his underwater video made me pay more attention to where the fish were hooked and I know now that they are in fact biting the bare hook. I guess my reluctance to believe they were biting was due to the sockeye's notoriety for being a non-biting salmon. It was hard for me to believe that virtually the only place in the whole world they actually do bite was Lake Washington....but I do now.

Aunty, I can't believe what I'm reading from you today...I really can't.

Ike

When I wrote "on average" I was trying to be generous and was thinking about a noob fishing float and jig, but bobber and worm fits as well.

The whole thing boils down to your core values.....
and that's between you and your inner core.
That said, if you and your inner core come to my neighborhood and floss, you will be challenged. Book it.

Flossing is legal, ethical, and makes you feel all clean and shiny

http://www.flossfish.com/

I don't floss (except when fly fishing ), and I'm pretty sure that the only reason anyone does is that they have become frustrated with trying to entice fish to strike to a point of deciding that flossing is the only way they will be able to catch fish. I can certainly relate to wanting to catch fish and being frustrated by salmon, so I have some sympathy for the thinking, especially since it's not illegal (or perhaps enforcable) to snag fish in the mouth. That said, flossing (an adaptation of snagging to make it legal) goes against the fundamentals of what I believe (and what most of us learned as kids) to be sport fishing.

More than likely, many (if not all) of you, like me, were introduced to fishing in a lake or stream with trout/bass/panfish/etc. Those to whom that generalization applies likely also used a worm, salmon eggs, or some other sort of thing that mimics fish food to entice the quarry to bite. Eventually, said quarry did bite, making you feel a sense of pride and accomplishment that keeps you going back to the water for more. There are many more reasons why I enjoy fishing, but the chase, the take, the battle, and the release (when required) are what make me choose fishing over other means of enjoying those auxillary benefits. I could still enjoy most of that while flossing, but missing out on the take would leave a pretty big void. Because I personally feel that flossing is unethical (beyond the point to which conventional sport fishing is unethical), it would leave something of a void in my soul as well.

All this said, to each his own....

I looked back over the thread, and can't find where one person said that...because it's irrelevant. It would be even harder to swim with goggles and a snorkel and stab salmon with a fillet knive and attempt to bring them in...and that's not fishing, either.

It's not sporting because it's not sport...it's not the fair chase, getting a fish to bite your offering...it's snagging, and I don't give a rat's ass how hard it is, or how much better some are at snagging than others.

Fish on...

Todd

snaggers are just boner chasing, rod yank'n, wannabes.

I don't mind Flossers/Snaggers. Why, cause they tend to flock together and theres alot of them! They tend to concentrate such areas like B. Creek,Skok,the Ditch etc... I fish nowhere near these places and never will! In return I get to fish areas where "Fishermen" fish and I don't have to be around these a$$clowns. In the 20 years I've been Steelheading I have never had a problem with a Steelhead taking my offering on their own free will! Whether it be pitching spoons, drifting bait or using a float and jig (yes, float) not bobbers... The only problems I have with Flossers/Snaggers is they consider themselves Fishermen and the biggest problem I have is they consider themselves a Steelheader. They have no idea what a Steelheader is and what the definition of sport fishing is.... Most are too ignorant to ever figure it out either, kinda like beating a dead horse!