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#670638 - 03/18/11 12:26 AM WSP asking for rifle sales information
Dogfish Offline
Poodle Smolt

Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 10979
Loc: McCleary, WA
Sounds a bit fishy, but the WSP is asking for sales of ALL AR-15 type rifles since 7-1-2010. Seems they are looking for a stolen rifle. Maybe they'll find Gill Kerlakowski's Glock while they are at it. From the scope of this investigation, one of the top guys probably left his rifle in his unlocked car, again, like the guy who left the full auto MP5 in his unlocked rig a few years ago.



Looks like a warrantless search. If they were looking for a stolen firearm, why wouldn't they just ask for all rifles/lowers originating from sales from private parties instead of ALL AR's? Any idea how many rifles this means and how many firearms dealers there are in WA?

I think I'll call my representative tomorrow. Please, if you have an FFL, call the detective involved to narrow down the search of what they are looking for before you compromise the privacy of your customers.

Thanks.
_________________________
"Give me the anger, fish! Give me the anger!"

They call me POODLE SMOLT!

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#670644 - 03/18/11 12:34 AM Re: WSP asking for rifle sales information [Re: Dogfish]
Todd Offline
Bumpin the 6X9's

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 26548
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
No need for a warrant if they are just "requesting"...

Fish on...

Todd

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#670647 - 03/18/11 12:42 AM Re: WSP asking for rifle sales information [Re: Todd]
Dogfish Offline
Poodle Smolt

Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 10979
Loc: McCleary, WA
I know Todd, but I'm sure you can understand the possible implication of not "complying" with their request. What's it gonna hurt?

Looks like sloppy way to drill down on information for a single stolen rifle. Why wouldn't they ask ATF to check their records for the S/N#?
_________________________
"Give me the anger, fish! Give me the anger!"

They call me POODLE SMOLT!

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#670654 - 03/18/11 01:02 AM Re: WSP asking for rifle sales information [Re: Dogfish]
Todd Offline
Bumpin the 6X9's

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 26548
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
No idea, and I wasn't offering any commentary on your opinion or thoughts...just that there's no need for a warrant based on that letter, that's all.

Fish on...

Todd

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#670669 - 03/18/11 01:48 AM Re: WSP asking for rifle sales information [Re: Todd]
ColeyG Offline
Ranger Danger

Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 3098
Loc: AK
The letter doesn't really make compliance sound optional. Wonder how that would play out in court if it ever got there.

ATF would only have record of who first purchased the rifle from a given dealer. Wouldn't they?
_________________________
I am still not a cop.

EZ Thread Yarn Balls

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#670671 - 03/18/11 01:50 AM Re: WSP asking for rifle sales information [Re: Dogfish]
Direct-Drive Offline
ExtenZe Field Tester

Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 7914
Loc: Vancouver, WA
Originally Posted By: Dogfish
Why wouldn't they ask ATF to check their records for the S/N#?

1. Yes, strange that they can't go through ATF....something is weird with that.
2. So, it was one of their weapons that was stolen ?
3. If anyone tried to deal it through legit channels the SN would throw a red flag immediately.
4. The lower was probably discarded and replaced with a "clean" one.
5. I purchased a lower recently, so am I a suspect in this Don Quixote dragnet ?
6. Chances are great that they will not recover it.

If it was a department weapon, they're extremely embarrassed and are trying to pull a rabbit out of their ass at the expense of the law-abiders.

About 6 weeks ago we had a COP officer leave a Glock in a public restroom.
Boner !









Edited by Direct-Drive (03/18/11 02:16 AM)
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#670674 - 03/18/11 02:03 AM Re: WSP asking for rifle sales information [Re: ColeyG]
Direct-Drive Offline
ExtenZe Field Tester

Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 7914
Loc: Vancouver, WA
Originally Posted By: ColeyG

ATF would only have record of who first purchased the rifle from a given dealer. Wouldn't they?

Sounds like WSP wants to see who has been purchasing AR lowers since 7/1/10, sift through that list and make their own assessment.
Everyone on the list has passed the checks.

I'm not sure if this is legal. At least it doesn't make sense because legit gun sales will detect the bad SN by default.
Then I go back to thinking that they want a list of buyers of single, stripped lowers and sniff around from there.

For those not familiar, an M16 or AR15's serial number is on a part called the "Lower Receiver".
You can acquire a lower either stripped (bare), built (with lower components) or as a complete weapon.


Edited by Direct-Drive (03/18/11 02:08 AM)
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#670676 - 03/18/11 02:09 AM Re: WSP asking for rifle sales information [Re: Direct-Drive]
ColeyG Offline
Ranger Danger

Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 3098
Loc: AK
To my knowledge, ATF only registers the first transaction involving new firearms, between dealer and purchaser. After that, any sort of registration that happens is purely voluntary and done by whomever is involved in the transaction.

The NCIC tracks "wanted" firearms by serial number, make, model, and caliber...assuming that someone filled out paperwork to request that the stolen firearm be listed as "stolen" in their database.

What is being requested in the letter is the in-house record of sales of the item(s) described, no doubt banking on voluntary compliance in the process.
_________________________
I am still not a cop.

EZ Thread Yarn Balls

"I don't care how you catch them, as long as you treat them well and with respect." Lani Waller in "A Steelheader's Way."

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#670805 - 03/18/11 02:56 PM Re: WSP asking for rifle sales information [Re: ColeyG]
RowVsWade Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 3402
Loc: Island Time
I haven't received that letter but I know where I'd put it if I did...
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If you don't like our prices bring your wife down and we'll dicker.

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#670812 - 03/18/11 03:11 PM Re: WSP asking for rifle sales information [Re: RowVsWade]
Irie Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/26/06
Posts: 4358
Loc: South Sound
Odd that the WSP would be investigating and not a county or muni detective, I think. As far as I was aware, law enforcement doesn't give a rat's ass about stolen property unless the stumble onto it, then it's just a paperwork nightmare tracking down the owners.

And WTF would a list of ALL sales accomplish on a single stolen rifle?

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#670815 - 03/18/11 03:15 PM Re: WSP asking for rifle sales information [Re: Irie]
Direct-Drive Offline
ExtenZe Field Tester

Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 7914
Loc: Vancouver, WA
Originally Posted By: Irie
Odd that the WSP would be investigating and not a county or muni detective, I think. As far as I was aware, law enforcement doesn't give a rat's ass about stolen property unless the stumble onto it, then it's just a paperwork nightmare tracking down the owners.

And WTF would a list of ALL sales accomplish on a single stolen rifle?


It may have been one of their department's weapons and they're extremely buttsore over it.
I wonder if specific gun dealers received the letter or all FFL's in WA ?
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#670820 - 03/18/11 03:30 PM Re: WSP asking for rifle sales information [Re: Irie]
RowVsWade Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 3402
Loc: Island Time
Perhaps WSP is held to lower standard with regards to paperwork and THEIR inventory of THEIR arsenal. THEY should have the serial number and tracking it that way would not be too hard. That letter looks like a fishing trip with way too broad of a scope.

Incidentally if it was lost or stolen and they (the WSP agency) has an FFL they would be required to fill out a lost or stolen firearms report (ATF form 3310.11) within 24hrs.
_________________________
"...the pool hall I loved as a kid is now a 7-11..."

If you don't like our prices bring your wife down and we'll dicker.

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#670837 - 03/18/11 04:41 PM Re: WSP asking for rifle sales information [Re: RowVsWade]
Dogfish Offline
Poodle Smolt

Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 10979
Loc: McCleary, WA
All FFL holders (not including C&R) supposedly received this letter. Spoke to one of our local mfgs/FFL's, and they got their letter.

WSP may have lost more than one item. If anything, the lower/lowers has been scrapped and the important "happy switch" parts were moved to a different host lower after the all important 3rd pin hole was drilled for the auto sear, using the original as a jig.

This is only conjecture, but it would appear that something along these lines has occurred. Still doesn't warrant a fishing expedition and compromising all of the information of legal buyers.

The WSP doesn't have an FFL, to my knowledge, because they use a number of individual FFL's to purchase items from, including a few that I am acquainted with.
_________________________
"Give me the anger, fish! Give me the anger!"

They call me POODLE SMOLT!

The Discover Pass is brought to you by your friends at the CCA.

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#670847 - 03/18/11 05:18 PM Re: WSP asking for rifle sales information [Re: Dogfish]
RowVsWade Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 3402
Loc: Island Time
Guess what came in the mail? I made a few copies to send out the NRA, GOA and a few others.

It appears that the WSP is only looking for the AR-15...there is only make manufacturer that makes THE AR-15.

That takes me out of the equation since I haven't delivered an AR-15 since July 2010.
_________________________
"...the pool hall I loved as a kid is now a 7-11..."

If you don't like our prices bring your wife down and we'll dicker.

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#670848 - 03/18/11 05:20 PM Re: WSP asking for rifle sales information [Re: RowVsWade]
Dogfish Offline
Poodle Smolt

Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 10979
Loc: McCleary, WA
Colt.
_________________________
"Give me the anger, fish! Give me the anger!"

They call me POODLE SMOLT!

The Discover Pass is brought to you by your friends at the CCA.

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#670851 - 03/18/11 05:23 PM Re: WSP asking for rifle sales information [Re: Dogfish]
RowVsWade Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 3402
Loc: Island Time
Armalite.
_________________________
"...the pool hall I loved as a kid is now a 7-11..."

If you don't like our prices bring your wife down and we'll dicker.

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#670861 - 03/18/11 05:47 PM Re: WSP asking for rifle sales information [Re: RowVsWade]
Dogfish Offline
Poodle Smolt

Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 10979
Loc: McCleary, WA
Colt's new catalog lists a rifle called the 1960 AR-15 and says that they introduced the semi-auto prior to the M-16, and uses AR-15 in their description. Although my 1963 smooth sided Colt AR-15 is listed as the model SP-1.

I believe in the matter of being technically correct, you get the nod. Must not be many Armalite AR-15 sold, since they too have changed their desination to M-15.

I thought though that Colt purchased the rights to the AR-15 back in the day, and that Colt holds the trademark. Colt uses a different designation, model numbers, for their rifle now.

Certainly nothing to argue though, since there are many, if any "AR-15" rifles sold these days. wink
_________________________
"Give me the anger, fish! Give me the anger!"

They call me POODLE SMOLT!

The Discover Pass is brought to you by your friends at the CCA.

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#670877 - 03/18/11 06:15 PM Re: WSP asking for rifle sales information [Re: Dogfish]
RowVsWade Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 3402
Loc: Island Time
Yep....

I wouldn't want to needlessly innundate the WSP with all variations of that rifle if they are only looking for a particular make and model. wink
_________________________
"...the pool hall I loved as a kid is now a 7-11..."

If you don't like our prices bring your wife down and we'll dicker.

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#670918 - 03/18/11 08:02 PM Re: WSP asking for rifle sales information [Re: RowVsWade]
Big_Daddy
Unregistered


Here is an interesting link to this story..........

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-se...f-not-consulted

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#670926 - 03/18/11 08:31 PM Re: WSP asking for rifle sales information [Re: ]
Direct-Drive Offline
ExtenZe Field Tester

Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 7914
Loc: Vancouver, WA
I thought that I smelled "Keystone Cops" when I first heard of this....

So first they "lose" the AR and now they are getting schooled by ATF. rolleyes


Edited by Direct-Drive (03/18/11 08:37 PM)
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