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#670712 - 03/18/11 09:59 AM Re: A few facts about taxes in America [Re: ]
ParaLeaks Offline
WINNER

Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 10513
Loc: Olypen
Goood Morning, Aunty! Take your meds? Had your coffee? Read Carefully now, OK?
The poor get tax breaks at the Fed Level only. The seniors (as well as disabled) get tax breaks at the Local Level and the Fed Level. Perhaps you are familiar with that.
Your attempt (SW's as well) to paint the poor as lazy, incompetent remorras on society is not only inaccurate, it's downright haughty, and I think you have a lot of nerve looking down your nose.
The attempt to somewhat equalize the working poor's income with income tax credit has always pulled my chain as well, but I can't think of a better solution, can you? My wife and I pay in more than twice what a co-worker gets back. Both he and his wife are terrific parents (better than I ever was/am) and they have a great family. I'm guess that he is about 40 and I have every confidence that they will find a way to improve their standard of living at some point.
I personally would rather remove the exemption from some lying-ass old biddy who snow-birds and has a wad in savings than take away a loving couple's assistance when the latter is doing all they can to stay afloat.
_________________________
Agendas kill truth.
If it's a crop, plant it.




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#670713 - 03/18/11 10:08 AM Re: A few facts about taxes in America [Re: ]
McMahon Offline
Spawner

Registered: 05/27/08
Posts: 652
Loc: Bellingham/Socialistic Idaho
Once again, people who make less than the ultra wealthy are the enemy. Let's make sure we put all of the tax burden on a young couple with a kid. The millionaire with tax-evading offshore accounts shouldn't be paying his share anyway...

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#670716 - 03/18/11 10:48 AM Re: A few facts about taxes in America [Re: StinkingWaters]
Dave Vedder Offline
Reverend Tarpones

Registered: 10/09/02
Posts: 8587
Loc: West Duvall
Originally Posted By: StinkingWaters
All the answers you could ever want to your Welfare Queen questions can be found here;

http://www.dshs.wa.gov/manuals/eaz/sections/stds4cash.shtml#388-478-0045

Short answer;

If you're a worthless, pathetic $hitstain and you prefer watching Nancy Grace and hoovering up jumbo jacks and winstons as opposed to working, and you squeeze out more kids,....... you get more cash,....... period.

Whether it be in the form of child support or TANF assistance. Even if the toothless meth addict you had your fifth gremlin with pays child support, if it doesn't exceed what you would receive in cash assistance,..... the state will bring your cash assistance up to speed. Case closed.

Dave you seem like a great guy with a big heart. I'm sure it'd be a laugh to tip back a few shots of some fine tequila with ya. Although no matter how humane it seems to be to hand people [censored] who don't have the wherewithal to go out and get it for themselves,.......it's a failing policy and only serves as a detriment to the recipient.


SW,

I read the regs AGAIN. I see nothing to indicate there is any benefit to a woman to having multiple kids with multiple fathers as regards to amount of welfare TANF they get. The formula is based on family size but I do not see where the amount the woman gets from the state is increased by the number of husbands they have or the amount of child support they receive.

But if you look at the chart you will see that a family of four that does not receive any housing assistance qualifies for $562 a month. If the woman has another child that goes up to a whopping $648. Remember this is for a household NOT recieving ANY housing assistance.

Please explain how that added amount makes life easier for the woman. If you know how to raise a kid for $86 a month please tell us.

It is an urban myth that women have more kids just to increase welfare payments. They do so for a number of really stupid reasons but to increase their monthly welfare check is not one of them. Yeah, yeah, I know you know this guy who knows this guy . . .

I, on the other hand have done in home reviews of many welfare recipients in sveral cities across the nation. Some are indeed worthless pieces of [censored], but many are simply poorly educated women that had a crappy life before hubby left and even less now. Want to eliminate the welfare program tell me how to take care of those children. Or would you prefer they starve?


Alsp please note the T in TANF stands for temporary. Federal law limits a families welfare payments to 3-5 years.



Edited by Dave Vedder (03/18/11 10:59 AM)
_________________________
No huevos no pollo.

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#670717 - 03/18/11 10:50 AM Re: A few facts about taxes in America [Re: McMahon]
trophymac Offline
Smolt

Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 78
Loc: Stanwood
So if the guy making a million a year pays $390,000 in taxes thats not his fair share?


Edited by trophymac (03/18/11 10:52 AM)

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#670720 - 03/18/11 11:02 AM Re: A few facts about taxes in America [Re: trophymac]
Dave Vedder Offline
Reverend Tarpones

Registered: 10/09/02
Posts: 8587
Loc: West Duvall
TM:

Fair is subjective, but in your example the person would pay considerably less than $390,000. The rate of tax is based on AGI. Not total income. There a many ways a person earning $1,000,000 can reduce AGI.


A quick Internet search shows that on average, millionaires pay an effective tax rate of about 17%

WARNING C&P TO FOLLOW


There are two important things to note from this chart. The first, and most visually apparent, is that the tax rates of the rich are far more closely linked to the capital gains taxes than income taxes. Salaries and wages, the source of income taxed at the blue line, represented only 6.5 percent of these filers’ income. Nearly two-thirds of their income comes from capital gains, and this is why you see a much tighter coupling between the orange and red lines.

The second thing to note is that the overall tax rates are really not that high. Contrary to concerns about socialism or a government takeover, the richest Americans, those earning an average of $345 million in 2007, paid about 16.5 percent in federal income taxes.



Edited by Dave Vedder (03/18/11 11:06 AM)
_________________________
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#670738 - 03/18/11 11:47 AM Re: A few facts about taxes in America [Re: ]
Dave Vedder Offline
Reverend Tarpones

Registered: 10/09/02
Posts: 8587
Loc: West Duvall
AM:

I do not for a minute doubt your anecdotal evidence. But today that same woman would, if we assume each daddy paid $700 a month, which is on the low side, NOT qualify for TANF - AKA welfare, she would not qualify for housing assistance, I do not know qualifying income levels for food stamps but would bet at $2,800 monthly income food stamps payments would be very little. Bottom line a woman today getting average child support from four dads would qualify for very little if any in welfare assistance. And TANF is still limited to 3-5 years per family.

She could live on the child support, but that is another issue form welfare altogether.
_________________________
No huevos no pollo.

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#670743 - 03/18/11 11:57 AM Re: A few facts about taxes in America [Re: Dave Vedder]
trophymac Offline
Smolt

Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 78
Loc: Stanwood
The amazing thing is everyone can reduce their AGI, our tax laws apply to everyone. With a little research anyone can use these laws to their advantage..But I guess that some people would rather just bitch about it..

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#670753 - 03/18/11 12:21 PM Re: A few facts about taxes in America [Re: ]
Dave Vedder Offline
Reverend Tarpones

Registered: 10/09/02
Posts: 8587
Loc: West Duvall
AM.

Your original post was in response to a discussion of welfare queens. Yes, I know what you said. And this is part of what you said.

"She gets child support from each dad, low income housing, food stamps and cheap medical insurance."

I'm simply trying to point out that today things are different. She would very likely NOT qualify for any low income housing, food stamps, or other welfare type programs.

And yes, I do remember bumming smokes from you. Hell I was a serial quitter. When in quit mode I would bum smokes or chew from anyone. I am happy to say I have been 100% tobacco free for eight months. Hows' your addiciton coming?


Edited by Dave Vedder (03/18/11 12:27 PM)
_________________________
No huevos no pollo.

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#670783 - 03/18/11 02:19 PM Re: A few facts about taxes in America [Re: ]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
Originally Posted By: AuntyM


Compare the property tax break the seniors get to the federal tax break the young couple get. Hmm... I would say the young couple still come out ahead. That couple had kids they couldn't afford to support if the tax breaks they get aren't enough to compensate. What about a little PERSONAL FRICKEN RESPONSIBILITY HERE? They made a choice. Instead of making babies and working low wage jobs, they should have expended the effort to improve their lot in life before bringing children into it. In fact, the kids DESERVE parents who make good decisions.

Hubby and I had the lean years too. We also had the intelligence to limit the offspring to the one we knew we could afford to take care of, so don't give me your lippy and whiny BS about the poor. This is America and a whole lot of the poor don't put forth the effort to be anything BUT poor.



Aunty:

<Disclaimer> I am neither a Republican nor a Democrat; I think both parties' platforms fall well short of anything that would actually benefit most people in our society. I agree with some of what each party preaches, but far from all. </Disclaimer>


What you are saying here does have some merit in a perfect world, but if it has any merit in the real world, it ain't much. The real world problems I see are as follows:

First, claiming that people should wait until they are financially secure to have kids seems like a no-brainer until one considers that most Americans don't reach that point until they are at least 35, or probably closer to 40, and some never reach that point at all. Waiting until you are in your late 30s to have kids is a big gamble. Not only is there a much higher risk of birth defects at that age, but there is also a very real chance you won't be able to conceive at all. This is to say nothing of the fact that sometimes, no matter how careful a couple is being, if they are sexually active, they can accidentally get pregnant. Nature finds ways to get around what we humans would like from time to time. I will say that what they do after having that child is something they can control, and to some extent, there are things everyone can do to earn a little more scratch.

Next, as I have asserted before on this board, a functioning society takes all kinds. Not everyone can make a six-figure salary, which seems to be the typical Republican answer for everything. Some products and services need to be affordable, which means the people providing them can't earn a lot of money. If every American did as you suggest and took the necessary steps to earn a great salary, it would serve only to devalue the education and skills required for that salary, thereby reducing the salary paid. Meanwhile, there would be nobody left to do the honest, hard work it takes to build, serve, and deliver the things we need to enjoy a good quality of life. Do you think so little of the hardest-working component of our society that you would tell them they should not be allowed to have children because they don't have enough money?

To be clear, I'm not advocating for abuse of the welfare system, which I generally agree does need some reform. I don't blame welfare recipients for any large part of the economic problems our country faces, but as a matter of principle, I do think every able-bodied person should have to do some kind of work to earn a living. I also understand that there are some real issues that prevent a lot of welfare moms from being able to work (paying for childcare comes to mind immediately). The real problem I see is with the children being raised on welfare. If they grow up in an environment where Mom doesn't work, they're going to figure that's how they're supposed to live when they grow up. Not the example we should be setting for these kids (if we want them to do something different, that is).

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#670790 - 03/18/11 02:29 PM Re: A few facts about taxes in America [Re: Dave Vedder]
StinkingWaters Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/12/09
Posts: 1032
Loc: Termite Country
Originally Posted By: Dave Vedder
And TANF is still limited to 3-5 years per family.


You're right,..... that is in the regs. Although for decades Washington state has ignored that guideline, along with many others. There are literally thousands of cases that have been on the rolls exceeding 5yrs,...... all the way up to 20+yrs. This I know for a fact.

Conversely,....... the state began dropping 5+ cases off the rolls beginning February 1st of this year. They have a long way to go,...... but it's good start in my opinion. If you can't get your act together in five years, others shouldn't be required to shoulder the burden of providing you cash.

Also, I never made the contention that having children with multiple fathers somehow increased the benefits,........ that was AM. What I did say, and was correct about, was that having more kids equals receiving more benefits. If you think that women don't game the system and have more kids to increase their benefits, you are absolutely kidding yourself. Welfare fraud cases are not isolated incidents,.... they are rampant. The state could employ an army of investigators and never keep up. Not to mention many state financial workers don't care about reporting fraud to investigators because "it's all gov't money anyhow".

In your model you're assuming the 4 deadbeat fathers are all paying child support payments on time and in full. They are as much to blame here as any "welfare queen" ever would be. If she isn't receiving any of the support the state is picking up the slack. They can go after the fathers. Although the average number of cases on a support enforcement officers desk in this state is somewhere in the neighborhood of 150,...... maybe you can shed a little light on that considering your experience.

My earlier comments may have been harsh but they were also tounge-in-cheek. If you look back to my first comment on this thread I stated that we should be looking at the bloated war and military budget before we go attacking welfare mothers. Anyone who doesn't want to look at the ridiulous defense budget has got no business complaining about entitlements IMO.


Edited by StinkingWaters (03/18/11 03:22 PM)
_________________________
On a long enough timeline the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.

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#670880 - 03/18/11 06:21 PM Re: A few facts about taxes in America [Re: StinkingWaters]
Dave Vedder Offline
Reverend Tarpones

Registered: 10/09/02
Posts: 8587
Loc: West Duvall
SW

Also, I never made the contention that having children with multiple fathers somehow increased the benefits that was AM.

Nope, she never said anything like that. TIC smirk


What I did say, and was correct about, was that having more kids equals receiving more benefits.


We both agree on that. I was simply pointing out that adding husbands to get child support does not help.



If you think that women don't game the system and have more kids to increase their benefits, you are absolutely kidding yourself.


If they can do math they would be fools to have another kid to pick up less than $100 a month.


Welfare fraud cases are not isolated incidents,.... they are rampant. The state could employ an army of investigators and never keep up. Not to mention many state financial workers don't care about reporting fraud to investigators because "it's all gov't money anyhow".

I think there is a good deal of welfare fraud. Back when I was doing in home visits I saw some but it was not rampant. Today, I don't know. But having more kids, while stupid, is not fraudulent.


In your model you're assuming the 4 deadbeat fathers are all paying child support payments on time and in full. They are as much to blame here as any "welfare queen" ever would be. If she isn't receiving any of the support the state is picking up the slack.

Again I was referring to an anecdotal case where purposely having multiple fathers increased the mother’s income. I agree with you such is very rare. Most of these losers marry losers that cannot or will not pay child support


They can go after the fathers. Although the average number of cases on a support enforcement officers desk in this state is somewhere in the neighborhood of 150,...... maybe you can shed a little light on that considering your experience.

I have been out of it more than a few years, so I guess I am no expert, but that caseload isn't all that bad. Washington was a national leader in efficient management of cases. The national child support program was modeled after Washington’s. The director at the time, Bob Quarry, had been in the Berlin airlift and he modeled the caseload management after that. Each officer grabs a case does the next logical action, say calling an employer to garnishee wages, then puts that case as idle and does the next logical step in the next case. So he may have one hell of a ,lot of cases "open" but it’s not like he's wading thru one till completion then picking up the next. I worked in a state office as part of my indoctrination. Its damn hard work and often frustrating. If an absent father stays in one job it’s pretty easy to collect support. But if a douche bag is willing to move every three months its damn hard to get anything out of him. But I do agree they could use more officers.

One problem with a meat axe approach to budget balancing is across the board cuts. When I was active in the program each officer was bringing in about ten times his wage. Yet when they had a budget crunch they laid off child support workers.


Edited by Dave Vedder (03/18/11 06:23 PM)
_________________________
No huevos no pollo.

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#670888 - 03/18/11 06:41 PM Re: A few facts about taxes in America [Re: Dave Vedder]
StinkingWaters Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/12/09
Posts: 1032
Loc: Termite Country
If you think that women don't game the system and have more kids to increase their benefits, you are absolutely kidding yourself.


If they can do math they would be fools to have another kid to pick up less than $100 a month.

You're giving them entirely too much benefit of the doubt.

Welfare fraud cases are not isolated incidents,.... they are rampant. The state could employ an army of investigators and never keep up. Not to mention many state financial workers don't care about reporting fraud to investigators because "it's all gov't money anyhow".

I think there is a good deal of welfare fraud. Back when I was doing in home visits I saw some but it was not rampant. Today, I don't know. But having more kids, while stupid, is not fraudulent.

I should have clarified. Having more children is certainly not fraud. Even if the intended purpose is to collect more benefits, it's almost impossible to prove. Welfare fraud more commonly comes in the form of the father living in the same household while working and contributing to the overall household income. Recipients know full well if that income is included,...... their benefits come to a stop.

In your model you're assuming the 4 deadbeat fathers are all paying child support payments on time and in full. They are as much to blame here as any "welfare queen" ever would be. If she isn't receiving any of the support the state is picking up the slack.

Again I was referring to an anecdotal case where purposely having multiple fathers increased the mother’s income. I agree with you such is very rare. Most of these losers marry losers that cannot or will not pay child support

I think you would find you and I agree on things much more than we disagree. It's the way to solve them where we will differ grin

They can go after the fathers. Although the average number of cases on a support enforcement officers desk in this state is somewhere in the neighborhood of 150,...... maybe you can shed a little light on that considering your experience.

I have been out of it more than a few years, so I guess I am no expert, but that caseload isn't all that bad. Washington was a national leader in efficient management of cases. The national child support program was modeled after Washington’s. The director at the time, Bob Quarry, had been in the Berlin airlift and he modeled the caseload management after that. Each officer grabs a case does the next logical action, say calling an employer to garnishee wages, then puts that case as idle and does the next logical step in the next case. So he may have one hell of a ,lot of cases "open" but it’s not like he's wading thru one till completion then picking up the next. I worked in a state office as part of my indoctrination. Its damn hard work and often frustrating. If an absent father stays in one job it’s pretty easy to collect support. But if a douche bag is willing to move every three months its damn hard to get anything out of him. But I do agree they could use more officers.

One problem with a meat axe approach to budget balancing is across the board cuts. When I was active in the program each officer was bringing in about ten times his wage. Yet when they had a budget crunch they laid off child support workers.


Case in point to the last item. Adding more support enforcement officers in a budgetary crisis isn't currently feesible. Private support enforcement agencies exist that work in conjunction with state enforcement agencies. They are efficient and cost the taxpayer zero.
_________________________
On a long enough timeline the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.

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#670891 - 03/18/11 06:47 PM Re: A few facts about taxes in America [Re: StinkingWaters]
Dave Vedder Offline
Reverend Tarpones

Registered: 10/09/02
Posts: 8587
Loc: West Duvall
SW

I didn't know about the private contractors. How do they make money - a percent of recoveries? If so, doesn't that cost the state in terms of not recovering the full amount to offset TANF payments.







Edited by Dave Vedder (03/18/11 06:50 PM)
_________________________
No huevos no pollo.

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#670895 - 03/18/11 07:08 PM Re: A few facts about taxes in America [Re: Dave Vedder]
StinkingWaters Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/12/09
Posts: 1032
Loc: Termite Country
The state always gets paid first. Most private contractors who perform this service won't take cases where state benefits exceed a certain amount. Otherwise, they would be working for the state.

They do get paid a percentage of recovery based on fees that the non-custodial parent will pay at the time of garnishment, lien, or recovery, and the custodial parent will have to take a hit in what they would have received in total.

Better than what they would have gotten otherwise.

The best scenario would be a balance of private contractors and state enforcement for recovery of back child support. State enforcement working on recovering what is owed to the state to recoup expenditures in benefits paid. Private contractors working on all other claims. Of course, the custodial parent would have the option of choosing since going the private route would cost them something.
_________________________
On a long enough timeline the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.

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#670908 - 03/18/11 07:31 PM Re: A few facts about taxes in America [Re: StinkingWaters]
Dave Vedder Offline
Reverend Tarpones

Registered: 10/09/02
Posts: 8587
Loc: West Duvall
SW

When I was with OCSE, federal law required collection action on all TANF cases. Failure to effectivley work those cases resulted in a 5% reduction of federal match on TANF - then called AFDC. The states had the option of not working the non TANF cases.

BTW the WA program was so considered so good that when Alaska decided to finally implement the CSE requirements they pretty much just copied the WA law. (With a slightly different child support calculator.) I know this because the then director of the AK CSE office and I drew it up late one Sunday night. It passed the AK senate unanimously.

I see you are choosing to ignore her too. Good call.
_________________________
No huevos no pollo.

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#670917 - 03/18/11 08:01 PM Re: A few facts about taxes in America [Re: ]
wntrrn Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 2665
Loc: Edmonds
Originally Posted By: salmosalar
I've said it before and y'all get pissy. When i look at my federal taxes every year, I am amazed at how little I pay. I am undertaxed.


Go Sox,
cds


Nobody is stopping you from writing a check to the US Treasury. You and Bill Gates Sr. should have lunch to determine how much extra you'd like to pay. It's very simple. I'll even give you an atta boy if we ever happen to meet.

Seems like a no brainer if you feel that way.....?
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I swung, therefore, I was

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#670947 - 03/18/11 10:19 PM Re: A few facts about taxes in America [Re: ]
ParaLeaks Offline
WINNER

Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 10513
Loc: Olypen
Originally Posted By: salmosalar
Originally Posted By: wntrrn
Originally Posted By: salmosalar
I've said it before and y'all get pissy. When i look at my federal taxes every year, I am amazed at how little I pay. I am undertaxed.


Go Sox,
cds


Nobody is stopping you from writing a check to the US Treasury. You and Bill Gates Sr. should have lunch to determine how much extra you'd like to pay. It's very simple. I'll even give you an atta boy if we ever happen to meet.

Seems like a no brainer if you feel that way.....?


I'm not gonna balance the budget on my own. My greater point is that if I were taxed what I would need to be taxed to balance the budget so would everyone else. If that were the case we would as a Nation make different decisions as to how we spend money.
So no, I'm not gonna write that check. Charitable donations are made every year with a portion of our refund check. We don't ever bother to deduct those either.

Go Sox,
cds


Refund check? You get a refund? I don't get no refund. I write 'em a check, in fact. Have for a few years now. Kinda happens when you don't owe anybody, I guess. I claim zero dependents all year and they want more...wtheck am I doing wrong? Geez, I'm dumb. smile
_________________________
Agendas kill truth.
If it's a crop, plant it.




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#671027 - 03/19/11 09:07 AM Re: A few facts about taxes in America [Re: ParaLeaks]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4394
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
Your short formed out, so to speak. Want one worse? Be single. Tax rate jumped from 15% @ 49k to 25% @ 39k when I got rid of the ex! Maybe I should have kept her ............................ nah / bad idea! grin


Edited by Rivrguy (03/19/11 09:08 AM)
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#671029 - 03/19/11 09:48 AM Re: A few facts about taxes in America [Re: Rivrguy]
ParaLeaks Offline
WINNER

Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 10513
Loc: Olypen
Originally Posted By: Rivrguy
Your short formed out, so to speak. Want one worse? Be single. Tax rate jumped from 15% @ 49k to 25% @ 39k when I got rid of the ex! Maybe I should have kept her ............................ nah / bad idea! grin


rofl Glad you kept your head on that one!
In response to the % increase.......Damn!
_________________________
Agendas kill truth.
If it's a crop, plant it.




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