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#681417 - 05/05/11 01:49 PM Re: Is the US Forest Service at fault? [Re: FleaFlickr02]
Krijack Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 1134
Loc: Tacoma
"but I also know that the odds of anything bad happening, even if there is an encounter, are very slim, to the point where it isn't really worth worrying about"

In this case it appears the odds were fairly high that a encounter could happen.


So, what I am hearing, is that common sense would not be to warn someone of a potentially dangerous situation? If you are the type of people that, after having your tent ripped apart the night before, would walk by a father and his small child and figure that "its the woods so they should just know" you are beyond sick.

Everyone keeps generalizing, but the truth is, this was an isolated situation where just a simply act of warning the people could very likely have saved a life. Sorry, but this is different than just camping. The state had put up an area that through activity of its patrons (other campers) had created a situation that was hazardous. They continued to collect fees but neglected to inform the people even though they thought it serious enough to take action against the hazard. This is not the same as the backwoods, nor is it the same as a park where no problem existed, nor is it the same as a unpoliced campground. The state had created a site that they knew would be catered by people, that many of these people would be novices, and that was policed by them. I am certain that in dry periods they put up signs telling people not to have fires. They probably have rules about where you can sleep and your behavior. All this makes it a commercial enterprise and makes them liable rather than just morally responsible.

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#681418 - 05/05/11 01:55 PM Re: Is the US Forest Service at fault? [Re: Bigjim]
stlhead Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 6830
If it were me, and most likely on the advise of my lawyers, at the first sign of a bear I would not only shut the campground down but all access to the forest within X miles. X miles are determined to be the average weeks range of a bear times 2. Now all of those people who show up for their annual camping trip will be turned away very pissed at our government but F those tax payers. One bad apple has spoiled it for everyone. Over time, unless we can cause the extinction of bears, National Forests will ony be available to the general public during hibernation.....until someone gets themselves killed, without prior warned of the danger, during that period. Gotta CYA now.
_________________________
"You learn more from losing than you do from winning." Lou Pinella

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#681423 - 05/05/11 02:37 PM Re: Is the US Forest Service at fault? [Re: stlhead]
Todd Offline
Bumpin the 6X9's

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 25024
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
I'll make a quick observation that would cover my opinion on the matter for most every situation...

The USFS should never be held liable when a "general threat" becomes specific, i.e., "you're in the woods, bears live in the woods, and bears sometimes maul people"...and it happens.

The USFS should be held liable when a "specific threat" becomes an acute threat and something bad happens, i.e., the situation described in this thread.

The bear was around, and they knew it...the bear had already threatened other campers, and they knew it...the bear had already been in someone else's tent, and they knew it...and those who knew it had opportunities to share this very important information, and didn't.

In the law, these are some general questions you always need to ask...

1. Would a reasonable person recognize the risk? (the defendant)
2. Would a reasonable person communicate that risk? (the defendant)
3. Would a reasonable plaintiff not know about the risk?
4. Would a reasonable plantiff do something different and avoided the risk, if they had known about it?

In this case, I'd go with a pretty definite "yes" all around.

The USFS recognized this particular bear as a problem, and any reasonable person who recognized this threat would communicate it to people around who are in danger from the threat. There's no way the campers would have known about this specific threat if the USFS didn't tell them, and a reasonable person probably would have taken their child to a different area to avoid the risk if they were told about it.

Fish on...

Todd

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#681426 - 05/05/11 02:58 PM Re: Is the US Forest Service at fault? [Re: Todd]
Oregonian Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 1794
City slickers AND lawyers.

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#681427 - 05/05/11 02:58 PM Re: Is the US Forest Service at fault? [Re: Oregonian]
Todd Offline
Bumpin the 6X9's

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 25024
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Everyone bitches about lawyers until they need one.

Fish on...

Todd

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#681432 - 05/05/11 03:46 PM Re: Is the US Forest Service at fault? [Re: Todd]
DBAppraiser Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 07/06/09
Posts: 1141
Loc: MA13
Originally Posted By: Todd
I'll make a quick observation that would cover my opinion on the matter for most every situation...

The USFS should never be held liable when a "general threat" becomes specific, i.e., "you're in the woods, bears live in the woods, and bears sometimes maul people"...and it happens.

The USFS should be held liable when a "specific threat" becomes an acute threat and something bad happens, i.e., the situation described in this thread.

The bear was around, and they knew it...the bear had already threatened other campers, and they knew it...the bear had already been in someone else's tent, and they knew it...and those who knew it had opportunities to share this very important information, and didn't.

In the law, these are some general questions you always need to ask...

1. Would a reasonable person recognize the risk? (the defendant)
2. Would a reasonable person communicate that risk? (the defendant)
3. Would a reasonable plaintiff not know about the risk?
4. Would a reasonable plantiff do something different and avoided the risk, if they had known about it?

In this case, I'd go with a pretty definite "yes" all around.

The USFS recognized this particular bear as a problem, and any reasonable person who recognized this threat would communicate it to people around who are in danger from the threat. There's no way the campers would have known about this specific threat if the USFS didn't tell them, and a reasonable person probably would have taken their child to a different area to avoid the risk if they were told about it.

Fish on...

Todd


That's the points I have been trying to make but Todd did a much better job of making those points than I did.

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#681436 - 05/05/11 04:17 PM Re: Is the US Forest Service at fault? [Re: DBAppraiser]
stlhead Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 6830
If it were a campground full of lawyers we'd need more bears.
_________________________
"You learn more from losing than you do from winning." Lou Pinella

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#681438 - 05/05/11 04:24 PM Re: Is the US Forest Service at fault? [Re: DBAppraiser]
Rocket Red Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2540
Loc: Elma
So it comes down to a mistake and/or oversight by a USFC employee and thus an extension of the FC. It is settled just like any commercial case, per Todd's post. Unfortunately, I don't think the gov't has any way to check a prospective employee for common sense and good judgment, and even worse they don't have a way to get rid of an employee who lacks it, until they kill themselves, hurt someone, or send out a racial/sexist e-mail.

I think the over-arching results will be something like stlhd has described, a knee-jerk over-reaction. Probably a complete woods closure everywhere within 2 miles of a bear sighting or something. That is what many jurisdictions do for sharks in California, Hawaii and Florida. A single shark sighting will sometimes restrict beach usage for a week. Savvy surfers have learned to NOT report shark sightings when they know the swell is going to be good.
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#681466 - 05/05/11 09:44 PM Re: Is the US Forest Service at fault? [Re: ]
Oregonian Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 1794
Would the next logical step be for the Forest Service to hire a team of high dollar lawyers to sue the employee for the money paid out ?

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#681467 - 05/05/11 09:46 PM Re: Is the US Forest Service at fault? [Re: Oregonian]
Oregonian Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 1794
If the kids was mauled to death, can I assume several adults were also chewed up as they tried in vane to save the child ? Or were they on hold with 911 ?

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#681477 - 05/05/11 10:27 PM Re: Is the US Forest Service at fault? [Re: Oregonian]
ParaLeaks Offline
WINNER

Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 10513
Loc: Olypen
Todd spoke of the legalities surrounding this event, which I agree with 100%, but beyond that I know that I would have warned any and all folks camped in the immediate vicinity that a bear was acting up and to beware.
Whether or not there were any legal obligations is not even an issue in my mind. To expect all campers to be knowledgeable about the wild is ridiculous.
To me it is akin to warning, or stopping, a blind man who is about to step into an open manhole. He treks along, tapping each side of his path with his cane, but missing the middle. He has no reason to expect danger.
I wouldn't want to live with the responsibility of having done nothing.


Edited by Slab Happy (05/05/11 10:31 PM)
_________________________
Agendas kill truth.
If it's a crop, plant it.




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#681485 - 05/05/11 11:15 PM Re: Is the US Forest Service at fault? [Re: ParaLeaks]
Oregonian Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 1794
I can agree with spreading the word of recent activety, but awarding the family of this victim two million dollars is absurd.

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#681498 - 05/06/11 01:49 AM Re: Is the US Forest Service at fault? [Re: Oregonian]
Man of logic Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/20/10
Posts: 962
Loc: the moon
I heard somewhere that the average kid can name like 1500 corporate logos and only 3 or 4 plant types.

A few years ago I was surveying a creek with a biologist, and just under an over pass there was black bear tracks. The only land that it could have been inhabiting was like a 4 or 5 acre chunk of forrest that had a real estate sign pinned to it.

Just a few years ago, a lady got killed by a black bear in Gig harbor. If you could see what that area looked like 10 years ago, and what it looks like today, you'd know why.

We're so used to there being a corporate logo pinned to something, that if shitt ever goes wrong, someone else will be at fault. Anyone who has ever cut down trees on a hunk of land is at fault with this one. Eco systems are shrinking/disappearing. Next time a coyote or coon gets in your trash, instead of killing it, go plant some trees.
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All of my thoughts are sophisticated and complex.

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#681500 - 05/06/11 02:02 AM Re: Is the US Forest Service at fault? [Re: Man of logic]
Bigjim Offline
will always be a Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 708
Originally Posted By: Jgrizzle
I heard somewhere that the average kid can name like 1500 corporate logos and only 3 or 4 plant types.

A few years ago I was surveying a creek with a biologist, and just under an over pass there was black bear tracks. The only land that it could have been inhabiting was like a 4 or 5 acre chunk of forrest that had a real estate sign pinned to it.

Just a few years ago, a lady got killed by a black bear in Gig harbor. If you could see what that area looked like 10 years ago, and what it looks like today, you'd know why.

We're so used to there being a corporate logo pinned to something, that if shitt ever goes wrong, someone else will be at fault. Anyone who has ever cut down trees on a hunk of land is at fault with this one. Eco systems are shrinking/disappearing. Next time a coyote or coon gets in your trash, instead of killing it, go plant some trees.


Fa'shizzle Grizzle.

I had to refer to my abundance of wildlife and plant life knowledge the other day as random useless junk. People don't learn this stuff anymore, I remember audobon books, dinosaur books and zoobooks growing up and some military books but I read books either way.

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#681516 - 05/06/11 09:59 AM Re: Is the US Forest Service at fault? [Re: Bigjim]
ParaLeaks Offline
WINNER

Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 10513
Loc: Olypen
Originally Posted By: BigJim
Originally Posted By: Jgrizzle
I heard somewhere that the average kid can name like 1500 corporate logos and only 3 or 4 plant types.

A few years ago I was surveying a creek with a biologist, and just under an over pass there was black bear tracks. The only land that it could have been inhabiting was like a 4 or 5 acre chunk of forrest that had a real estate sign pinned to it.

Just a few years ago, a lady got killed by a black bear in Gig harbor. If you could see what that area looked like 10 years ago, and what it looks like today, you'd know why.

We're so used to there being a corporate logo pinned to something, that if shitt ever goes wrong, someone else will be at fault. Anyone who has ever cut down trees on a hunk of land is at fault with this one. Eco systems are shrinking/disappearing. Next time a coyote or coon gets in your trash, instead of killing it, go plant some trees.


Fa'shizzle Grizzle.

I had to refer to my abundance of wildlife and plant life knowledge the other day as random useless junk. People don't learn this stuff anymore, I remember audobon books, dinosaur books and zoobooks growing up and some military books but I read books either way.


I too grew up with my nose in every nature book, fishing book I could find, and watched every documentary that was on TV, etc. But I work with some guys/gals today who don't have a freakin clue about the bugs they step on or animals they crush with their cars. I don't know why there is no interest outside of the printed media that kids today are force fed....like "aren't those harbor seals cute?"....or "don't throw sticks for the dog in the river, you might disturb a fish".......etc.
_________________________
Agendas kill truth.
If it's a crop, plant it.




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#681589 - 05/06/11 03:35 PM Re: Is the US Forest Service at fault? [Re: ParaLeaks]
ColeyG Offline
Ranger Danger

Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 3098
Loc: AK
Originally Posted By: Slab Happy

To me it is akin to warning, or stopping, a blind man who is about to step into an open manhole. He treks along, tapping each side of his path with his cane, but missing the middle.

He has no reason to expect danger.


A blind man that goes for a walk without expecting danger is a foolish blind man indeed!
_________________________
I am still not a cop.

EZ Thread Yarn Balls

"I don't care how you catch them, as long as you treat them well and with respect." Lani Waller in "A Steelheader's Way."

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#692278 - 07/06/11 08:18 PM Re: Is the US Forest Service at fault? [Re: DBAppraiser]
RowVsWade Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 3388
Loc: Island Time
Originally Posted By: DBAppraiser
Sign location is very simple: On the fee collection box. Since this is a USFS camp ground and fees are being collected you can bet that there is a fee collection box and everyone is expected to pay upon arrival. See, not that hard.


It looks like a sign didn't help this poor fella'......who should be sued now? I mean we gotta' blame this on someone....

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/07/06/montana.grizzly.attack/index.html?&hpt=hp_c2
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"...the pool hall I loved as a kid is now a 7-11..."

If you don't like our prices bring your wife down and we'll dicker.

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#692279 - 07/06/11 08:24 PM Re: Is the US Forest Service at fault? [Re: RowVsWade]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5479
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Seems like informed risk to me. The guy was informed of the risk and made a choice that didn't end well.

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#692280 - 07/06/11 08:26 PM Re: Is the US Forest Service at fault? [Re: Carcassman]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5479
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Sign seen at the base of a sea cliff on Fraser Island, Queensland, Oz, that we were about to hike up. "Your safety is our concern and your responsibility"

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#692281 - 07/06/11 08:27 PM Re: Is the US Forest Service at fault? [Re: Carcassman]
stam Offline
Model Citizen, Zero Discipline!

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 12386
Loc: wherever I want to be...
His wife just won the lottery with a ticket purchased with his life.
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Go hard, or..... go home

http://community.webshots.com/user/stamtma?vhost=community

soremouth the works...

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