Whoa, this is why I shouldn't be breaking my vow to never argue with idiots.

It's not about a church, it's about a group of people who have decided what they will do with their own lives, preferably without interference from government. It's about people taking care of people, and their system actually does work, from what I've seen of it. It's not charity, it's their social and religious responsibility to care for one another.

As far as negotiating rates down being 'crazy', are you nuts, or just been smoking too much horse manure? The whole point is that the cost of dealing with insurance creates incentives for medical providers to work around it!

Health care reform (what an euphemism) has done nothing to reform health care or contain costs. In fact, health care costs are only going to continue to rise. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

Why not try something different?

You ARE an idiot.

For some reason the religious right and sheep-fvckers like Alan MiKKKelson think that since Jesus is their golfin' buddy, they get to cherry pick what laws actually apply to them. The upshot is they say retarded schit like:

"I live in a bunker and force my wife to wear prairie dresses and only allow my children to recite bible verse for fun. Therefore, I should not have to contribute to social security, the up-keep of the roads I use, or the defense of my nation."

And:

"Social Security is a Ponzi scheme!"

And:

"The churches will pay for it."

And:

"Corporations are people."

My grandfather, a Republican and small businessman, had a saying:

"You've never been screwed until you've been screwed by a 'good christian.' There's no limit to what they can do to you when God is on their side."

"No difference. Like most distinct groups, you could say they consider themselves 'the people'. Thus, when they have a need, "we, the people", take care of it. There's some idiots on here like stealhead that don't quite get it and think that's some kind of a RWWJ plot."

Wow. Your question went right over his wittle head.

"And as far as negotiating rates down, every time I've been to a hospital or Dr., there's a different rate for cash vs. insurance payments. Again, how is that somehow part of a RWWJ plot?"

Obviously you have no idea why hospitals have different rates. There's the private insurance rate. There's the rate for the rich who have dough. Then there's the highest rate which is what they charge your govt for providing socialized medicine to thos who do not have insurance or dough.

"Whoa, this is why I shouldn't be breaking my vow to never argue with idiots."

Arguing with the mirror again? You should negotiate for some pills.

"Health care reform (what an euphemism) has done nothing to reform health care or contain costs. In fact, health care costs are only going to continue to rise."

Yeah since it hasn't kicked in yet. Doh.

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."

See the mirror comment above.

Wow, haven't stolen enough head lately?
I leave the sheep to folks like you and KKK.
I don't golf, not sure whether Jesus does or not.
The Amish pay taxes that support roads and pay for national defense.
Al Yankovitch has a pretty funny song about Amish, prairie dresses, etc.
I sure hope Social Security isn't a ponzi scheme. I'd like to get a bit of my money back.
Not sure what the churches will pay for. The Amish pay as individuals. The Amish religion has no centralized authority.
Well, I've never shaken hands with a corporation...
And your grandfather was right. But, there's plenty of secular idiots, too...

Alan, thanks for the insult.

Maybe I'm not explaining myself clearly enough? Even those Amish people that are paying their bills are essentially also paying for someone else's bills. in fact, ANYONE that actually pays their bills is paying for their own care PLUS the care of everyone else that will not/cannot pay their bills. So, in my world, those non-payers are the ones interfering. I'd actually favor government interference in this because it would get some of the deadbeats to actually pay up.

The general idea of what you are describing with the Amish is a good one but it is essentially a form of collective "insurance", correct?

Do you favor mandatory liability insurance for drivers of cars in Washington? I think it provides an analogy.

-AP

I'll go along with that "obviously you have no idea" because you obviously do not.

The lowest reimbursement rate is the one where the patient does the dine-n-dash on the bill.

The next lowest reimbursement rate is Medicaid, which many docs won't accept. This is the rate your state will pay to the hospitals for treating illegals in the ER. Also used by the Sterno Bums or people who are down on their luck.

Next comes Medicare.

After that comes private insurance which typically pays around 10% above the Medicare rate.

Private pay is those "rich" people paying cash for medical care. The Canadians that have come into my office for a hip or knee replacement pay a set price for the doc fee. That's usually the same as what the private insurance companies pay. The docs don't charge more because, for one, they realize the patient won't be coming back into the office for a follow up visit. That might be different for the docs that are up in WA and a lot closer to the border.

Those Canadian patients then negotiate a cash payment for hospital services that generally amounts to what Medicare would pay.

Did anyone mention the word reimbursement besides you? Nice twist.
Rates charged for illegals or your dine-n-dash'ers are the non-negotiated highest rate. And it's obvious we are talking hospitals not private practice.

I've been watching this debate abit because it's a bit personal to me. I'll let you all in on the real life story of my brother.

Several years my brother was working 2 jobs in DC. By day he was a wine distribution warehouse manager. By night he bounced at a local establishment. In DC that means that you can afford to live in Annacostia, the ghetto.

On night he got sick. He toughed it out a few days until his roomates called 911. He went to the hospital. It was the ghetto hospital. He asked for pain killers as his stomach was killing him. He was refused. They diagnosed him with pancreatitis. He was starved for a few days (standard treatment) and sent home when his pancreas got better. At this point he drank a bit, but not excessively. They told him it was a freak thing and to carry on.

Soon after this he moved in with me so that he could try to get an education. The rent was right at my house. A year later he got it again. This time in bellingham. He was amazed at the care that whire northwesterners recieve compared to what he had gotten. This hospital stay was an unisured one. He was told to go to a doctor, but he could not afford one.

He later got a job as a mover. There were no bebefits but he was getting going again. The pancreatitis returned. he had been feeling sluggish for a couple weeks but could not afford the Doc. He tried to self treat with laxatives etc. but in the end it just kept getting worse. This one was a real doozy. They diagnosed him with pancreatic cancer....death sentence. Alas it was an incorrect diagnosis but he spent a couple weeks in the hospital, lost his galbladder and ran up a house payment for a bill. Finally when his pancreas had shrunk, he returned home. He was able to go to a few doctors appointments cuz the doctor felt so bad about the misdiagnosis. He has not been back in a while. He is presently employed but uninsured.

Because of the one doctor he recieved normal care and education after his surgery and hospitalization. He now carefully monitors his fat intake. He can not drink any alcohol (sucks living with me I'm sure). He has had no flare-ups.

He will never be able to pay his bills. His credit is shot. He did not die though.

I learned a few lessons from living through this with him.

1.) Ghetto hospitals are different from my hospital. The quality of treatment and care were startlingly different. If 911 took him to the white folks doctor the whole thing may have been avoided when he had insurance.
2.) Paying for preventitive care for the uninsured may be cheaper than the ER room when it hits the fan.
3.) If you get really sick/ accident when you are uninsured they'll fix you up but it'll sink you credit wise.
4.) The insured pay for the uninsured in the end. (see number 2)
5.) Health care for all would provide for freedom more than it would restrict it. My level of freedom is buffered by the need to provide myself and the girls insurance. I'm not starting a buisiness on my own any time soon, although the idea thrills me.

Go Red Sox,
cds

http://www.accessproject.org/hospital.html

"Hospitals have been criticized for their billing and collection practices regarding low-income uninsured patients. Reports by The Access Project and others led to news reports detailing harsh billing and collections practices directed at these patients – including failing to inform people about eligibility for charity care, foreclosing on homes, garnishing wages, and even putting people in jail."

These are at the full rate Hankster.

salmosalar......There's no way of knowing the whole story and all of its ramifications without living through it, but I can say that your brother is lucky to have you. I don't know if it helps any, but I have known people who have had some serious hospital debts forgiven.
Sounds like you have some great family ties going, with your concern for your brethren and kids. Good Luck.

Boo fricken hoo Salar, I will see your story and raise you one. My aunt's husband died of brain cancer leaving her big medical bills and two young kids to raise on a HS education. She never declared banko or borrowed a dime and paid off all the debts and paid of herself and her kid’s medical bills along with everything else that costs $$ in life, all by her little lonesome. She did it by foregoing life’s little pleasures , she walked or rode the bus and still does, makes all her own clothes always has, grows a garden and picks fruit and cans etc. Sounds like your bother liked the bottle and ate a high fat diet and earned his pancreatic the old fashioned way, life style choices. I have no problem paying for medical for those truly in need but not if they have and want life’s luxuries on the taxpayers back. And yes booze, a car and new store bought clothes are luxuries in every country in the world.

I worked with a guy who went home not feeling well and died in emergency that night from pancreatitis. He thought he had food poisoning.

"It's often hereditary. Look it up jackass."

It is more often than not related to suckin on the bottle, look it up yerself jack wagon.

Please describe your diet and exercise regime, do you smoke?

Put a sock in it, TJ.

It's the "Empathy -Free Hour with Tom Joad", ladies and gentlemen.



And paid off a six-figure bill? By making her own clothes and canning fruit and vegetables?

I was going to join in on the Empathy-Free Hour and say a bunch of mean sh!t, but then I realized it would only lead to me looking like a dick.

Mr. Joad,

I must not have been clear enough. I was not trying to garner sympathy, just telling the story of my brother. I think it highlights some definciencies in our lack of a system. The fact that you assumed I was seeking sympathy says a whole lot more about you than me. Projection is an indicator of a man's character.

For the record he was not much of a drinker. In fact, of the 4 of us bros. and sisters, he drinks the very least. He did (past tense) enjoy wine but it didn't cause his illness. His pancreatitis was likely caused by gall stones interfearing with his pancreas, or heredity. Another posibility was his diet which was directly related to his working 70+ hours a week at the time of his first episode. He has no car, new clothes or truthfully much of anything, but he's alive even though he drives me insane. He's away working for the next 5 weeks at another job w/o benefits. If he get's real ill we'll all pay again.

Slab,

Thanks for the kind words. Anyone would do the same for one of their own. I will say though that I have a remarkable wife.

6-5 Sox (6th),
cds

TJ

What would your aunt have done had she had a major heart attack while working so hard to pay off those bills? Or if one of her kids needed an extended hospitalization?

The fact is many middle income families are left destitute by major illnesses. There is no way a family of four making a median income can EVER pay off the massive bills that result from a major illness or trauma,000 in hospital bills. I don’t give a shait how frugal they are.

As to the cause of their illnesses who gives a shait if they contributed? Most Americans eat too much, smoke too much, drink too much or exercise too little. I guess we should toss them all under the buss too.

What total and complete B.S.

BTW my daughter hs had pancreatitis twice as a result of surgeries for other problems. She has never drunk alcohol. She tried for years to pay off her huge hospital bills but gave up after they refused to accept a payment plan and garnished her saving account where she had $3,000 saved for my grandson’s college.


I guess we should care for the fortunate and let the less fortunate die or be destitute for life.

I was going to join in on the Empathy-Free Hour and say a bunch of mean sh!t, but then I realized it would only lead to me looking like a dick.

Oh hell DS ain't no way that could happen. You have all ready cemented your reputation in place! The description of a dick is accurate but then one should be upwardly mobile.

Dan---Sometimes your little nuggets enlighten me. Gawd dam....I'm gonna' buy some more "indulgences", make my own clothes and be nice when I don't wanna' be.

I say mean chit when I don't even mean it mean....whatever the phvck that means.