#716624 - 11/08/11 10:53 AM
Re: Outlawing Flossing in Oregon
[Re: Todd]
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Fry
Registered: 06/11/09
Posts: 22
Loc: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
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Thanx Todd. That DOES make me feel better.
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#716629 - 11/08/11 11:00 AM
Re: Outlawing Flossing in Oregon
[Re: Todd]
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Hahahaha haha ha
Registered: 04/07/07
Posts: 1870
Loc: Silverdale WA
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last week i had a river to myself untill two snaggers came on either side of me in the hole i was fishing and proceded to snag fish...i cant stand snaggers...learn how to freaking fish!!!!!!!!!!!
im down with them trying to get snaggers off the rivers...they know who is fishing legit and who is not....are you not supposed to loose your fishing liscense if you get three tickets? do they even care or do they just keep fishing without one...i dont know how many times i wish there was fish and game around...its no wonder some people think this is a normal way to fish...they dont see people catching fish the normal way cause the nomal people fish where the crowds are not...or for the most part where there are less people
i know i dont go to places where there are a ton of people most of the time...just cause of stupid snaggers
_________________________
see ya on the river 
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#716636 - 11/08/11 11:31 AM
Re: Outlawing Flossing in Oregon
[Re: Todd]
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Spawner
Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 730
Loc: Sacramento, CA
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We're not talking about Alaska... Well that's convenient, since many (most?) of the guys on this board FLOSS Reds when they go to AK. So for those keeping score, it is apparently OK to floss, as long as you don't do it in OR or WA. Let's call it "flexible ethics," kinda like "fuzzy math." I don't want to get into the flossing debate - it's been beaten to death. But come on...at least have CONSISTENT ethics. It's either OK or it's not...you can't floss in one state and then turn around and voice your disdain for the method in another.
_________________________
"Eventually, all things merge into one, and a river runs through it."
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#716638 - 11/08/11 11:38 AM
Re: Outlawing Flossing in Oregon
[Re: Nor Cal Drifter]
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ExtenZe Field Tester
Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 7961
Loc: Vancouver, WA
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What do you think, NCD ?
Is flossing OK ?
_________________________
NO STEP ON SNEK
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#716640 - 11/08/11 11:43 AM
Re: Outlawing Flossing in Oregon
[Re: Direct-Drive]
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Dick Nipples
Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27840
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
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NorCal, what's been beat to death are you justifications for why you should be allowed to snag when you can't get fish to bite.
I don't think it's ok anywhere, but if you want to do it, keep it in California, or Alaska, or BC...don't bring it here.
Fish on...
Todd
_________________________
 Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle
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#716650 - 11/08/11 12:27 PM
Re: Outlawing Flossing in Oregon
[Re: Todd]
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Spawner
Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 730
Loc: Sacramento, CA
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NorCal, what's been beat to death are you justifications for why you should be allowed to snag when you can't get fish to bite.
I don't think it's ok anywhere, but if you want to do it, keep it in California, or Alaska, or BC...don't bring it here.
Fish on...
Todd Todd - I don't think that's entirely fair...I have never tried to "justify it." Truth be told (here's your answer Direct Drive) I am torn on how I feel about flossing. My home river is a terminal fishery, meaning 99% of the fish are hatchery and there is no true wild strain left (we're talking Chinook here). The river has two dams above the hatchery - totally impassable to the fish beyond the first dam which is a few hundred yards above the hatchery entrance. There is little to no viable spawning gravel left in the portion of the river accessible to the fish. Bottom line...it's a hatchery river and always will be because those dams are not coming down anytime soon -they are actually considering building a third up higher in the system. In terms of the fish, the hatchery only needs a very small sample of the tens of thousands of fish that enter this system in order to meet (exceed) their egg quota each year. The remaining thousands of fish basically die in the river probably after unsuccessfully spawning because there is no good gravel. These are hatchery fish - you know, the ones that EyeFish always says "must die" and everyone here celebrates when they get to "bonk" one because then they won't spawn with true wild fish. So...these fish are basically just going to waste and possibly spawning with any few remaining wild fish, further diluting that stock. There is no chance of removing the hatchery from this equation, as I said there is no viable spawning gravel in this river and the commercial fishermen rely on this river as part of the Sacramento River system for the second largest producer of commercially caught Salmon on the West Coast. In other words, these fish are caught in the ocean and feed our families. The hatchery is necessary. So...for years I have been OK with the flossing on this river - why waste a fish if it can feed a large family? And..up until recently, the flossing scene has been fairly laid back. Many of the guys doing it are hard core anglers that love to fish for other species and get a kick out of wrestling with a big Salmon for 1-2 months out of the year, but they are good people and have a strong passion for the sport. Recently, in the last few years, it seems like it has gotten way uglier though. The crowds are now insane, the fish get hammered on big time, and the mentality has changed. It's not just a few guys out there having a good time...it's hundreds of guys out there acting like the fish on the end of their line is a matter of life or death. Bunch of cranky bastards out there that have forgotten (or never knew) what fishing is all about. So...like I said at the beginning of my post, I am torn. I don't like the thought of so many hatchery fish going to waste - same thinking as the Sockeye fishing in AK. BUT, I really don't like what the fishery has become as a result of the flossing mentality. So there you have it. Full disclosure. Hopefully this helps paint a picture of where I have been coming from in all of these debates over the past couple of years. Flame away if you must, but understand I am trying to be honest here. A "kinder and gentler Nor Cal Drifter."
_________________________
"Eventually, all things merge into one, and a river runs through it."
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#716655 - 11/08/11 12:51 PM
Re: Outlawing Flossing in Oregon
[Re: Direct-Drive]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3360
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I agree with FF02.
There could well be an appropriate time and place for meat market flosseries.
There probably is a legitimate place for terminal snaggeries.
I disagree. I would never vote to legitimize snagging, anywhere. Sets the wrong precedent and just imagine a whole generation of snag-weaned young anglers never learning how to fish. And then there's the sub-culture of flossers. Another group that never learned how to fish. No question about it, DD, that is an ugly prospect. Sadly, if you ask me, that's what we have today (granted, to a lesser extent). Career snaggers/flossers will teach their kids to snag/floss, and so shall the cycle continue. Snagging (not even trying to hook fish in the mouth) is clearly illegal, yet you can still observe people practicing it just about everywhere. Making flossing illegal won't stop people from doing it. My naive hope in proposing a legalized snaggery was that people who want to fish that way would have an opportunity to do so, in a limited area, apart from where I like to try to make fish bite hooks. My proposed potential benefits may be a bit lofty, but I do think it would remove more excess hatchery fish from the system and decrease the level of waste somewhat. Flossing is, at best, borderline snagging, but it is legal, and realistically, it may even do less damage to fish than legitimate, inside-the-mouth hooking (it's rare that I see a snagged fish bleeding). In my mind, the biggest problem with flossing (I don't think it even registers on a scale measuring the threats various factors pose to the future of our fisheries) is the management problems the grey area between flossing and snagging presents. 4 out of 5 times, when I run across an enforcement officer, it is at or very near a hatchery zone. This is probably due in part to the ease of access to such areas, but I think it's also because such areas lend themselves to people crossing the line between flossing and snagging. Concentrating the practitioners of "alternative" fishing methods in clearly defined areas and making it legal to snag would virtually eliminate the need to monitor such areas [except perhaps for a fish counter, to make sure nobody exceeds their legal limits, retains wild fish (where illegal), or retains non-target species], which would free up enforcement staff to spread out and target poachers and out-of-bounds snaggers, for example. Of course, I did say I was only halfway serious. Your points, plus the fact that advocating snagging in any form feels fundamentally wrong, account for the non-serious half.
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#716657 - 11/08/11 12:53 PM
Re: Outlawing Flossing in Oregon
[Re: FleaFlickr02]
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Dick Nipples
Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27840
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
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Flossing is not legal in Oregon or in Washington.
Fish on...
Todd
_________________________
Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle
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#716669 - 11/08/11 01:18 PM
Re: Outlawing Flossing in Oregon
[Re: FleaFlickr02]
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Dick Nipples
Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27840
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
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That's the "sad" part of the story...even though it's illegal, it hasn't stopped them from doing it, so now they feel like they have to go after the tools that the snaggers use to floss, and that unfortunately will also affect legitimate fishermen who are not snaggers.
Just like it only takes two dirtbags to litter enough to have access closed off to the rest of us, it only takes a handful of snaggers to have areas closed or fishing techniques banned for all the rest.
Fish on...
Todd
_________________________
Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle
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#716675 - 11/08/11 01:30 PM
Re: Outlawing Flossing in Oregon
[Re: Todd]
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ExtenZe Field Tester
Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 7961
Loc: Vancouver, WA
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While the Oregon legislation is on the table, law enforcement needs to chime in and let us know what they need to respond/prosecute.
Knowing that, we can better help enforcement bag some flossers.
I don't think I've ever seen a flosser getting bagged but I'll bet it's a satisfying sight.
_________________________
NO STEP ON SNEK
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#716676 - 11/08/11 01:32 PM
Re: Outlawing Flossing in Oregon
[Re: Nor Cal Drifter]
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Spawner
Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 730
Loc: Sacramento, CA
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NorCal, what's been beat to death are you justifications for why you should be allowed to snag when you can't get fish to bite.
I don't think it's ok anywhere, but if you want to do it, keep it in California, or Alaska, or BC...don't bring it here.
Fish on...
Todd Todd - I don't think that's entirely fair...I have never tried to "justify it." Truth be told (here's your answer Direct Drive) I am torn on how I feel about flossing. My home river is a terminal fishery, meaning 99% of the fish are hatchery and there is no true wild strain left (we're talking Chinook here). The river has two dams above the hatchery - totally impassable to the fish beyond the first dam which is a few hundred yards above the hatchery entrance. There is little to no viable spawning gravel left in the portion of the river accessible to the fish. Bottom line...it's a hatchery river and always will be because those dams are not coming down anytime soon -they are actually considering building a third up higher in the system. In terms of the fish, the hatchery only needs a very small sample of the tens of thousands of fish that enter this system in order to meet (exceed) their egg quota each year. The remaining thousands of fish basically die in the river probably after unsuccessfully spawning because there is no good gravel. These are hatchery fish - you know, the ones that EyeFish always says "must die" and everyone here celebrates when they get to "bonk" one because then they won't spawn with true wild fish. So...these fish are basically just going to waste and possibly spawning with any few remaining wild fish, further diluting that stock. There is no chance of removing the hatchery from this equation, as I said there is no viable spawning gravel in this river and the commercial fishermen rely on this river as part of the Sacramento River system for the second largest producer of commercially caught Salmon on the West Coast. In other words, these fish are caught in the ocean and feed our families. The hatchery is necessary. So...for years I have been OK with the flossing on this river - why waste a fish if it can feed a large family? And..up until recently, the flossing scene has been fairly laid back. Many of the guys doing it are hard core anglers that love to fish for other species and get a kick out of wrestling with a big Salmon for 1-2 months out of the year, but they are good people and have a strong passion for the sport. Recently, in the last few years, it seems like it has gotten way uglier though. The crowds are now insane, the fish get hammered on big time, and the mentality has changed. It's not just a few guys out there having a good time...it's hundreds of guys out there acting like the fish on the end of their line is a matter of life or death. Bunch of cranky bastards out there that have forgotten (or never knew) what fishing is all about. So...like I said at the beginning of my post, I am torn. I don't like the thought of so many hatchery fish going to waste - same thinking as the Sockeye fishing in AK. BUT, I really don't like what the fishery has become as a result of the flossing mentality. So there you have it. Full disclosure. Hopefully this helps paint a picture of where I have been coming from in all of these debates over the past couple of years. Flame away if you must, but understand I am trying to be honest here. A "kinder and gentler Nor Cal Drifter." I should also add that my feelings re: flossing are specific to my home river. If I had access to some of the fisheries in WA that still had viable native fish runs, I am sure I would not be torn...I'd be against it. So Todd and DD...thoughts? Don't think I have ever heard you remain silent on anything. Did I stump the band?
_________________________
"Eventually, all things merge into one, and a river runs through it."
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#716678 - 11/08/11 01:44 PM
Re: Outlawing Flossing in Oregon
[Re: Nor Cal Drifter]
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ExtenZe Field Tester
Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 7961
Loc: Vancouver, WA
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Your confession has been heard, my son.
May the fish gods smile on you and guide you out of the darkness.
_________________________
NO STEP ON SNEK
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#716679 - 11/08/11 01:49 PM
Re: Outlawing Flossing in Oregon
[Re: Nor Cal Drifter]
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Dick Nipples
Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27840
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
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I'm happy to hear you've had a change of heart, because you have made several posts, on several websites, claiming that flossers are actually "more ethical" than real fishermen, that guys need to be allowed to bring home fish for dinner, and that flossing take a lot of skill...all justifications that are meaningless to actual fishermen.
My contention all along has been that there is no place for it because it will lead to exactly what you are seeing on your home river...as it is almost every fall salmon terminal zone in Washington is over run with snaggers, litterbugs, and general douchebags, and that's with snagging and flossing being illegal.
We need to eradicate them from our ranks, not welcome them in and tell them to go be dirtballs "only over there"...because they'll do it everywhere if you give them the chance.
If Alaska and BC sockeye fisheries managers can manage to keep the snaggers in those fisheries and off the others, more power to them...I know folks who participate in them and would never snag fish in any other fishery, anywhere...unfortunately there are those who discovered that you can snag a lot more than just sockeye if you go to anywhere there are fish kegged up, fish of any species, in any river.
A good portion of the justifications for snagging fish can be applied to jacklighting deer, shooting sitting ducks, shooting before/after legal hunting hours, keeping more than your limit of whatever you are harvesting, or harvesting during closed seasons.
When I hear "maybe he's just trying to feed his family" I want to say "then maybe he should not be out fishing and should be looking for a fuckin job".
Fish on...
Todd
_________________________
Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle
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#716685 - 11/08/11 02:35 PM
Re: Outlawing Flossing in Oregon
[Re: Todd]
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Ranger Danger
Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 3076
Loc: AK
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Solving the snagging issue from an enforcement standpoint is simple really. All the rule needs to read, as it does, is that snagging and/or attempting to snag fish is illegal. From there all that is required is enforcement personnel that know the difference between legitimate drift fishing and snagging.
The problem is that to prosecute any sort of crime, you need to link the behavior or action to some sort of very clearly defined rule, regulation, or quantifiable set of actions. In other words, when the person who issued the snagging ticket is asked how he knew subject A was snagging, he/she needs to be able to articulate how they identified the subjects actions as snagging. Therein lies the rub. How does one articulate snagging in unbiased, objective terms that an uneducated court would both understand and support? Mechanics? Terminal tackle? Both or some combination thereof?
Assuming field staff are competent enough to delineate between the legitimate fishing and snagging two (a big stretch I know) the problem is at the court level should some snagger choose to take his snagging ticket to court and challenge the basis for having received it. Solve that problem and train enforcement staff accordingly, and you should have something close to a solution...on paper anyhow.
_________________________
I am still not a cop. EZ Thread Yarn Balls "I don't care how you catch them, as long as you treat them well and with respect." Lani Waller in "A Steelheader's Way."
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#716687 - 11/08/11 02:42 PM
Re: Outlawing Flossing in Oregon
[Re: ColeyG]
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Dick Nipples
Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27840
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
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The difficulty of proving what is obvious to anyone standing there is why there is now a law proposed in Oregon to outlaw specific gear that snaggers use...since having snagging be illegal doesn't stop people from doing it, they're proposing to take away their tools so they can't do it...and therein lies the rub, real fishermen get screwed thanks to the snaggers.
This is why real fishermen should not tolerate it.
Fish on...
Todd
_________________________
Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle
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#716689 - 11/08/11 02:51 PM
Re: Outlawing Flossing in Oregon
[Re: Todd]
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Spawner
Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 730
Loc: Sacramento, CA
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I'm happy to hear you've had a change of heart, because you have made several posts, on several websites, claiming that flossers are actually "more ethical" than real fishermen, that guys need to be allowed to bring home fish for dinner, and that flossing take a lot of skill...all justifications that are meaningless to actual fishermen.
Todd Todd - really don't want to argue, but one of my biggest pet-peeves is being mis-quoted. I never said flossers were "more ethical" than other fishermen. What I said was, I know many fishermen who floss fish that are very ethical and do a TON of work to protect and enhance our fisheries. I said this because I think it is a shame you quickly write them off as "snaggers" rather than keep an open mind and try to educate them to your beliefs. I have also said that I think flossing, as a technique, is less harmful to the fish than many other techniques that you would consider "ethical." Like someone else posted above, never seen a bleeder result from flossing. I also never said that "guys need to be allowed to bring home fish for dinner." I simply stated that this seems to be why alot of guys are flossing these days on my home river, and that I suppose it is better than a fish going to waste. I am 99% C&R these days on all species, and would be completely ok if they made all fishing C&R. In terms of flossing taking alot of skill, well...not sure if I ever actually typed that, but I do belive it. Appreciate and enjoy having this dialogue with you and others, and you're right as I get older I am slowly having a change of heart, but need to make sure I am not mis-represented or mis-quoted.
_________________________
"Eventually, all things merge into one, and a river runs through it."
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#716694 - 11/08/11 03:08 PM
Re: Outlawing Flossing in Oregon
[Re: Nor Cal Drifter]
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Dick Nipples
Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27840
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
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Sorry...didn't mean to misrepresent you...as you can see, I'm pretty passionate about this subject!
Fish on...
Todd
_________________________
Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle
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