Bantam and have been going back and forth of the subject on intruder patterns. He mentioned one modeled after the green butt skunk. New concept for me, but I figured I would give it a shot.

First drafts are a little rough around the edges, but I kinda like the idea. I am sure steelhead have eaten worse.

Pinky out or in?

It is fairly flamboyant. Haven't made up my mind yet. It could grow on me.

I'm liking the deer hair collar more and more each time I comparethe two

Kind of looks like a hybrid between a skunk and pick your pocket fly pattern. It'll fish.

Coley,

I'm reminded of Ed Ward's remark that everything about the Intruder is "engineered" (in his words) on that pattern. Each and every material and the way it is tied in serves a specific purpose. So the salient question is whether each material you used is tied on in a way that provides action and creates the illusion of being large without being bulky.

Bucktail generally doesn't have much action in the water compared to marabou, ostrich, emu, rabbit, and artic fox, for example. Rabbit is great for action, but comes with the cost of quite a bit of bulk and a lot of resistance to sinking.

The colors of the Green Butt Skunk are a proven combination, so that fly will catch fish - as will most any fly. Does it sink like and have Intruder action?

Sg

I saw that clip of Ed and another angler discussing the origin and merits of the intruder style a year or two ago. Since then I have been giving each new twist on the style the swim test before I commit to a larger batch.

The action in these flies comes from the ostrich and the rhea. When I first started tying them, I was using longer waddington shanks (45mm) which gave me a fly in the length I wanted, but they didn't swim all that well. More recently I have been using shorter 25mm-35mm shanks while leaving the materials the same length. These flies swim much better. I think one of the key concepts with the intruder is to give the appearance of bulk and mass without actually achieving a bulky fly in the process. Flaring the materials and using fairly stout materials for the collars and underwing features really helps with that.

Leaving the body of these flies pretty sparse help with a number of things. First, a bulked out body doesn't get in the way of the "action" of the fly, letting them move freely and giving a more lifelike appearance. Keeping the fly more on the sparse side lends to a more castable fly that gets into the zone more readily as well.

The test I give them is to dip them in a glass bowl and swish em around a bit. Not exactly scientific, but if they are pretty wiggly, I keep em, if they don't move much, I take them apart and start over.

Try tying a spin off of Scott Howell's Prom Dress (Flashabou), the Prom Dress Intruder. Howell's Prom Dress is tied in one front stage only and has a Polar dubbing, Polar Bear under collar. Add a rear stage and you have a Prom Dress Intruder. I tie my Prom Dress Intruder out of nothing but synthetics, substituting Lite Bright dubbing, Polar Chenille for the Polar dubbing, Polar Bear. I also substitute New Age Chenille (body), a dub looped Angel Hair finish collar for Howell's flat tinsel (body) and Guinea finish collar. Use all material sparsely, especially for the Prom Dress Intruder. I use a lot less Flashabou that is showed on most of the Prom Dress flies and shorten it up a bit for the Prom Dress Intruder because the Flashabou is in two stages.

In doing so, It soaks up very little water, cast well, sinks well and fishes well.

It has become one of my favorite Intruder patterns and the materials to tie it are fairly cheap.

http://www.flyfishusa.com/flies/stl-prom-dress.htm

http://www.flytyingbug.com/threads/protube-prom-dress-w-step-by-step.452/

http://www.flyfishusa.com/newsletter/022811/

http://oregonflyfishingblog.com/2011/01/24/blue-hoochi-tube-fly-video/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTnLZJIcEFc

GG

Blingy! I have often thought of putting one of those wobbly reverse coneheady things over a big flash fly and seeing how it gets bit compared to a spoon. The prom dress might be a good one for the experiment.

How does one legally acquire polar bear these days?

Speaking of illegal tying supplies, saw these guys hanging out in the jungle recently. Tried to catch one for KK but they were too quick.


Blue Heron





Bare Throated Tiger Heron


Too bad, they looked like they would make some nice flies.

Gray Ghost,

Nice links! Thanks. A couple weeks ago I tried some larger flies that I tied with 3 or 4 strands of flashabou on each side and was surprized at how much flash that created in water that had about 30" visibility. That same day I found a fly on the beach that my partner told me was a Prom Dress. I don't think I'd noticed that pattern before. With so much flashabou tied on the shank, I wonder how well it would sink were it not for the dumbells also tied on the shank.

Watching the first link and article where the recovering gear angler created the PD to simulate a metalic plug or spoon gets me to thinking about this whole craze among so many newer converts to fly fishing who basically seem to want to gear fish with fly rods. First came the bobber and jig nymphing technique and now plugs and spoons are added to the mix. It does cause me to wonder why they pick up a fly rod.

Coley,

The best way to get pre-ban, legal, polar bear is to find someone selling an old rug. They come up in estate sales. I saw an ad for one a year ago, but it was too far away to go see it in person. The ones to get are wall hangers that haven't been walked on. This one was only 2 or $3,000, but that would be easy to recover by selling off most of it and still having a lifetime supply left over.

I'm getting low and would be interested in going in on a purchase if anyone finds one for sale.

Sg

Got some of that too, pre ban. Also getting low on supply. Used to be pretty easy when the hatcheries would shoot herons that raided their rearing ponds, but that became a no-no in 1979, six years after the ban.

That is quite a lot to deduce from a shiny fly

Where then is the line between those that do it right and those that do it wrong?

Personally I think it has less to do with wanting to "fish gear with a fly rod" and more to do with flyfishers wanting to catch fish for a change.

Is adding fish attracting/catching characteristics to a fly really that frowned upon in the old school? If so, it really isn't about the process or even the end result, but rather more about being in the club I guess.

I continue to think these class and style distinctions are ridiculous anyhow. At the end of the day are we not all using a rod, reel, line and lure and trying to catch a fish?

these ones are only 13k-28k

http://www.bearskin-rugs.com/polar-bear-rugs-c-62.html

but heres one for a mere 2700, that hasnt been walked on either... head looks to be in pretty good shape as well...

http://kingston.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell...QAdIdZ342047891

No deduction required Coley. It was spelled out clearly in the article that the intent was to create a fly that would/could fish like a plug and a spoon and get similar results.

It's never been a line between right and wrong. It's the same ol' line that distinguishes fly fishing from conventional spinning and casting gear which I think has been rehashed more than enough. Whenever someone remarks as you did that "((it has). . . more to do with flyfishers wanting to catch fish for a change." it causes me to think that your either haven't fly fished very long or at least not long enough to learn how effective it is, or that your need to catch a fish exceeds any desire to catch one under the self-imposed constraints of traditional fly fishing. If I never caught fish by fly fishing I'm sure I would have moved on to something else long before now. Mind you, knowing what I know now, I probably wouldn't begin fly fishing for steelhead today because it's easier to learn when there are enough fish and conditions are suitable for providing positive and negative feedback while learning technique.

Adding fish catching characteristics to flies is part of the tradition. The tradition becomes gray in steelhead and Atlantic salmon fishing because we're not trying to imitate or simulate a food source like with trout and most other fly fishing. A few friends of mine went through a phase of tying flies with only natural materials - hair, fur, feathers, wool, silk, but no mylar tinsel or any of the commonly used cheniles. The old school doesn't frown on inovation. I think what the old school frown on is taking the easy way out. Modifying materials and methods to attain conventional gear catch results with a fly rod is considered taking the easy way. That's why you won't see old schoolers nymphing for steelhead with a bobber and split shot or trying to make a plug or spoon out of a fly.

I must know a half dozen guys who when they go steelheading in BC in the summer and fall use floating lines only. No sink tips allowed in camp. And no weighted flies. It's not that there's anything "wrong" about using sink tips, but limiting oneself to the floating line is probably the best way to expand one's knowledge of just how effective one can be with it. Of course it's easier to go down this path after having already caught a lot of fish and a few 20# steelhead to the resume don't hurt either. It can get crazier. Three friends of mine were on the Hoh a few seasons ago, and in an alcohol induce epiphany decided to swear off using graphite rods and pitched a stack of perfectly good Sage rods (I saw the photograph, and it's real) into the campfire. They fish only bamboo now. That's farther than I'm willing to go, but it must be right for them.

Whether the distinctions are rediculous is a personal perspective. They aren't rediculous to me. How I catch fish matters to me because the "how" affects the satisfaction I get from the experience. I value a steelhead taken on a floating line more than one I catch using a sink tip line. If I just wanted to catch a fish I should value a steelhead taken in a gillnet or with blasting caps just as much as one taken on a dry fly, but I don't. I think methods matter to most fishermen. Each person simply draws the line where they find their best personal fit.

Sure, at the end of the day we're all trying to catch a fish, and for some catching the fish is all that matters, and for others there is more that matters.

Redhook,

Good find! Unfortunately it's not legal to bring those polar bear rugs into the U.S. I guess that's why polar bear has become so expensive. The only legal supply is pre-1972 (I wrongly stated 1973 above), and it's becoming scarcer.

Sg

Didn't want to disappoint Stam!

I think you have a good enough understanding of my motivations to know that I am in it a lot more for the experience, adventure, and process than numbers of fish caught. That having been said, I really enjoy catching fish and that is a significant part of it for me.

I can understand casting method and tool preferences and how those affect one's enjoyment of the process. I don't understand how, all other factors equal, a fly made from natural materials vs. one made from synthetics enhances the fishing process. The tying/creation process sure and maybe it satisfies some ethical need or preference. The enjoyment I get out of catching a fish on a fly I tied is the same regardless of what it is made out of. As long as it casts and fishes well, I could give a flying poo what it is made out of. I kind of always thought that the main reason to put something on the end of your line was to get a fish to bite it If the latter (fly) doesn't have much of an impact on the former (method/tool), why not use something that is more like to be eaten?

Sincere question, if given the option to fish a waking fly (your ultimate experience?) that fish ate readily or one that they almost never ate, would you choose the latter purely because you had to work more for it thus finding the overall experience more rewarding? I know, I know, the fly matters very little.




I guess I am still looking for a clear definition of that line. More than that, I am curious as why in the minds of many there needs to be one.




Fair in some ways. Although I would consider myself pretty darn new to swinging flies for steelhead, in the end I have spent a lot more time chasing fish with a fly rod in my hand than a gear rod. Mind you that is not a claim to be proficient with either. My method ADD doesn't let me stick with one thing long enough these days to get good at any of them. Good in this instance meaning both technically correct and highly effective in the catching realm.

What is "traditional fly fishing" and to that end, how many sects are there within fly fishing? Traditional, non-traditional, old school, new school, etc. Are they all clearly defined or does it depend on which campfire circle you happen to be sitting around when the topic comes up? Do dirty nymphing bastards even get a mention? What if they nymph with "traditional" nymphs and no indicators. What about indicators but egg patterns made from all natural materials? Are you sure you don't find the idea of all these arguments and how seriously people tend to take them just a little ridiculous?



The easy way out of what? Modifying from what? I don't mean to be facetious, but it seems as though a certain standard is being referenced. What is that standard? I don't think there needs to be a comparison with conventional gear at all. Maybe that is where my perspective deviates from the norm. On the river I really only feel like I am competing with myself, whether I am choosing a highly effective method or choosing another in favor of style or process more than number of fish hooked. I fully understand having a strong preference for tool and/or method over effectiveness. That having been said, I also know that more traditional fly fishing methods can be highly effective, especially when employed by skilled fisherman and women. New to it as I may be, I feel pretty confident in saying that more traditional fly methods (however you choose to define those) will never rival catch rates on hardware, bait or a number of other methods. Of course there is not a thing wrong with that, but instead of making a value judgement on other methods or those that choose to use them, I think the good attitude to have is one that says "this is how I like to fish" and not "my way is better than your because..."







Of course and I couldn't agree more. My personal formula still gives a little more weight to the "hows" that catch fish more often over those that catch fish less often, admitting my own inadequacies in the process. As more time goes by, I get more and more enjoyment out of some of the smaller facets of the pursuit like getting fish to eat weird unconventional things or reeling them up on a fly rod I built. Who knows, in a few more years I might have a bonfire of my own.

All in good humor and for the sake of interesting discussion of course.

I certainly can't argue that.

Coley,

I don't pretend to understand how all these values figure into the equation. As your questions dig deeper I find myself resorting to "I only know what feels comfortable to me." I think the natural materials fly pattern kick is just that, a phase some guys wanted to try and see if they could have a selection of flies that are effective within this self-created constraint, harkening back to the historical origins of fly fishing in Dame Juliana's day. I don't feel any different swinging a Royal Coachman bucktail than one of marabou and silver tinsel with mylar flashabou streamers I used a couple weeks ago. I do like flies that are aesthetically pleasing, but the funny thing is, the steelhead don't care (trout, however, do). So as long as aesthetic flies catch fish roughly as well as unaesthetic ones, I keep trying to tie the former.

Traditional fly fishing is easy to define. It means fishing only with rods made of split cane, silk lines, reels made in England, gut leaders, and flies dressed only of natural materials. Any departure from that and you're just a bait-slinging whore monger. Can't be simpler than that. As for how many sects and camps I think it does depend on what campfire you hang around.

Regarding the sincere question, if I find a particular fly, technique, gimmick, etc., that just absolutely works so much better than whatever else I tried, I stay with the sure-fire whatever for just a while. After I've caught some fish with it, I switch to see what else will work, even if not as well. I value the unpredictable over the predictable. Which is why I gave up bait and drift fishing for steelhead fly fishing. If I could catch winter steelhead on flies at the rate I can catch them drift fishing bait, then I would switch to fishing dry flies for winter run, upstream, dead drift, not skated. It's like the pole vault and high jump in track and field. When I can consistently nail one height, reasonable challenge is all about raising the bar, not leaving it the same, or lowering it.

I do this. When trout fishing I fish to find what pattern they are eating above all else, and then I switch and see what else they might take. One time I hit a favorite steelhead stream under perfect conditions and rose 15 steelhead to the floating line and wet fly. The next day I decided not to fish any spot that I fished the day before or any spot that I had ever previously hooked fish in. Obviously there were a lot of fresh fish in the river, and they were well distributed. It was the best possible circumstance to discover what new places I'd never caught fish in might hold a fish under these conditions. It wasn't even all that tempting to go back and see if I could hook more fish than the day before, maybe 20, even 30. I got more satisfaction exploring for new holding water, but only hooked 6 or 7 the second day, and was entirely satisfied with that. The alternative would have been to just fish dry flies all day, but I think that would have worked too well under those conditions.

If there is a reason why there needs to be a line between fly fishing and conventional gear, I think it's because they are inherently incompatible. Take the old Fortson Hole on the NF Stilly for instance. In days gone by you could easily have 7 fishermen fishing through in rotation without issue. Throw in one spin fishermen drift fishing in there and it all goes to hell. Same if there were 10 drift fishermen in there in the winter season. One fly guy entering that lineup and the system comes to a halt. Now I guess that happens within the gear fishing ranks where drift fishing and jig and bobber fishing the same hole are not compatible, or so I read on the internet.

". . . I feel pretty confident in saying that more traditional fly methods (however you choose to define those) will never rival catch rates on hardware, bait or a number of other methods. Of course there is not a thing wrong with that, but instead of making a value judgement on other methods or those that choose to use them, I think the good attitude to have is one that says "this is how I like to fish" and not "my way is better than your because..."" I agree almost completely. I do make value judgements according to ease or relative effectiveness of method, which is different than making value judgements about people.

Around my campfire it goes like this in descending order of high falutin' preference which should help define "the easy way out":

1. upstream dead drift dry fly
2. skated dry
3. damp wet fly swing
4. deep wet fly swing
5. nymphing, no split shot, no bobber/indicator
6. nymphing with split shot and or indicator
7. jig and bobber with spinning/casting rod
8. drift fishing spinners and spoons
9. drift fishing bait
10. pulling plugs

Although I think bait is the absolute most effective day in, day out, year round, I put plugs at the bottom because only the boatman is fishing. The dudes in the front seat are really no more than ballast. I don't compete with other fishermen either. After all, I fly fish. If it was about competition I go straight for blasting caps and gillnets. I think I have a good understanding of gear effectiveness.

Always interested in interesting discussions, and yours are right up with the best. I'm not sure I understand all my biases. It's never occurred to me to take a spinning or casting rod to Alaska or the Caribbean for instance. I go there specifically to fly fish. If there were no fly fishing there, I'd just go sight seeing. And I guess that's what earns me one of Stam's ascots.

Which leads me back to the topic of this thread you began. Is a Skunk Intruder an "engineered" fly? I've talked with Ed about his and Jerry's experience in developing it, and the approach was decidedly different than anything I'd heard about steelhead flies previously. I think this concept is becoming more common, and that the salt water guys are the ones on the cutting edge, trying to simulate bait or squid with something castable and manageable as a fly.

Sg

I see KK is adding value through content sorta' like Abu on the main page. Way to contribute you reprobate! Stam's gonna' revoke your ascot if you can't do better than that.

Avid,

I think you have to be a member of the club and know the secret handshake to get it. Or maybe they had some financial regrets when they woke up the next morning. I've got just enough Scot in me to know I would. Yikes!

Sg

Thank you and I would certainly say the same. Thanks for engaging and for the perspective. Are bait slinging whore mongers and Dame Juliana devotees allowed round the same campfire


Much to ponder for now.

Cheers.

I was trying to work up the nerve to tell a story about the time I was short a plug rod so I strung my 6wt and lashed on a tad polly, but I thought better of it at the last minute.

Heathens.

hey, i fish bait, i dont appreciate that stam...

That Stam, he's a purist.

Coley,

Dame Juliana and the whore mongers are all brothers and sisters of the angle. Not a gillnetter among them, blasting caps having not been invented. The campfire's big enough for all those who revere the fish and the sport.

Redhook,

It's OK. Stam prides himself on his primitiveness. It's a special cult thing.

Sg

Just to throw a wrench in the works a bit...



Float and jig is very effective, and very easy, which is why you see so many beginners using it, and why you see virtually every guide who has fishermen good enough to pass on pulling plugs throwing things out there with boobers on them...

But...I suspect it rates higher on the "I'm better than you" scale solely because it is a LOT more like a particular style of "flyfishing" (purposely in quotes) than are the rest...

You will find far, far more proficient jig/boober fishermen than spoon or driftfishermen because it is far, far easier to do...

Fish on...

Todd

Just picture Salmo sitting on his dark brown lazy boy chair in his reading/cigar room. Handmade wall-to-wall bookshelves filled with books on fly fishing, flies, and golf line the room along with a lit fireplace. He's got a fine crystal tumbler in his hand filled with 25 year old Laphroig, neat. The other hand is holding a lit Partagas Series D cigar. He's in his fine reading afternoon attire, complete with ascot, and tweed jacket.

Insert your best elitist nasal voice now and read the following quote:

Partagas suck... get with the program Parker...


id sit there with a bottle of Mums and a Swisher Sweet...

Thanks for revisiting that bit Parker.

I am not sure what stung worse, the fact that he said it, or that the statement is accurate in more ways than one

I am more of a Monte Cristo #2 sorta guy. They go well with PBR.

That was of those "Pot........Kettle........Black" moments, wasn't it?

If you're a flyfisherman, and you are out looking for the "elitist" flyfisherman, and in spite of talking to several flyfishermen you still cannot find one...well...

You probably know the rest



Fish on...

Todd

The thing I love most about you guys who never to seldom fly fish in this, the fly forum, is that you are such dependable biters and join right in with such authority. A lot of what I have to read at work is so very dry, and this stuff is invariably a relief.

I thought I hung with some pretty high profile and highbrow fly fishermen and earned my steelheading degree while sitting around their campfires, but now I feel like maybe I was never an accepted member of the club cuz I never, ever have seen an ascot. Maybe they put 'em away and hid 'em every time they saw me wander in. And I never got to learn the secret handshake. Man that hurts a guy.

Toddster, better late than never,

The easy way out ranking isn't about how easy a method is to do, or else seat ballast while plug pulling and bobber and jig would have been at the top. The ranking is about relative effectiveness, year around under all conditions, yada, yada. That indicator and nymph and bobber and jig are similar are irrelevant on this scale. Ergo, you flunked the scale ranking. But thanks for playing.

Hey Paker,

Are you volunteering your chicken wings to come help build some bookshelves? I sure need more, ya' know, for the reading room. No cigars; mine is a strictly non-smoking house, no exceptions. Nothing golf related either. And no Lazy Boy. But I won't dismiss the concept.

As for the quote, if you don't get it, I think I understand, and you're not alone. A lot of guys don't care how they catch fish as long as they catch fish. Remember "she who cannot be named"? That's what she said; "fishing is about catching fish." As for your fly fishing expertise, KK appears to have summed it up nicely. Thank you for your contribution to a fly fishing thread. It wouldn't have been the same without you.

Stamley,

Not all, but some of the best steelhead fly guys I've known were superb bait slingers in their formative years, which kinda' hints toward a key thing about steelhead fishing that isn't a part of this thread. Not that Coley's success matters, but when you refer to his fly fishing, you mean swung flies, right? No split shot, no nymphs, no beads? Cuz we all know that ain't fly fishing if you recall that thread.

The best thing I can think of about beer in aluminum cans is that it allows the undiscriminating to get drunk cheaply. The second best thing about it is that it'll do in a pinch, like a rafting float trip where having a lot of glass around is a liability. I resort to Budweiser on such occasions, but it makes me feel like I do when I pinch a split shot on my leader. Are we still at Level 5?

Sg

Meter busted through the glass on the first page.

I can only hope that a lot of what has been said is tongue-and-cheek and that those cracking the jokes know they are doing it. Grade A stuff, for sure.

Those guys should have known that a Sage thown in a fire supplies virtual ascots for all in attendance. They really could have saved some money.

AP,

I'll be sure and tell them, and after I explain what it means, at least within the narrow context of this forum, I already know they'll be unimpressed and not give a sh!t. People who toss Sage rods in a campfire are too far beyond giving a sh!t what anyone else thinks.

I don't know who knows what's t.i.c. or not, and that's part of the fun.

Sg

Tongue in crack? Sorry that was T.I.C.

Anyone who thinks it's not virtually all tongue in cheek probably really does wear an ascot, and needs to stay away from the InterWebz, or might be in danger of an aneurysm or, at the very least, an ulcer the size of Rhode Island.

Fish on...

Todd

P.S. Salmo g., where does that single hander with the pencil lead, four foot leader, and yarn tied into the knot of a 1/0 Octopus hook fall on that scale?

Bantam's Nightmaretruder

Salmo - I got myself into refinishing my kitchen cabinets now. Hours and hours of sanding, staining, and finishing. I don't need or want another wood working project at the moment.

KK - the only person that I enjoy sitting around the camp fire with and telling them how to fly fish is Maris. He makes a great face when contemplating either suicide or just killing me outright.

Oh sh!t! Vedder showed up. I should have ranked his bobber and jig mo' betta'.

Todd,

There ya' go, asking the tough question. Would you believe I over looked that particular specific gear type? I mean, I could have. But why would I? BTW, RI sized ulcers is taking this stuff waaaay too seriously.

Coley,

That Nightmare-truder looks like some serious bait. Of course I'm not a fish, so what would I know? But it looks like it uses all of the Intruder concept. Yep, that dog will hunt. Er, that fly will fish. Probably work better than its namesake jig.

I've never actually tied any Intruders. Don't have all the materials. I've got a couple ostrich feathers but no rhea, and that stuff's expensive. Cheap guy that I am, after learning a long time ago that a marabou feather tied to a hook is about as good a fish getter as there is, I have to force myself to tie up some quality bait. Which is likely why I still have pre-ban polar bear and heron after all these years.

Sg

Paker,

Quality post there, Bro. Glad I wasn't sipping any 25 year old Scotch when I read that!

Sg

A couple of years back I found a place out of oregon that was selling rhea feathers for a very good price. I bought a crap ton and still have half of a crap ton. Happy to send you a few feathers if you would like to give some a go.

Lady Amherst is another nice addition, though it adds a bit of contrast+color, I don't think it does much for the action of the fly, thus I have been leaving it out more that putting it in lately. Guinea feathers under the rhea and ostrich.

That is the place.

Looks like a plug.

Blasphemy and sacrilege!!!

Thanks Coley, I might take you up on that.

Yeah KK, at least not a bobber and split shot. Which takes us just about full circle again. I think my first line of departure in this thread was the reference to the Prom Dress flashabou pattern, being intended to simulate a plug, which led me to remark, why not just use a plug? The use of 2-handed rods has done a lot to blur the distinction between fly and conventional gear because they can effectively cast larger, bulkier, and heavier flies than most guys were willing to use with single hand rods. So now we have guys throwing what have become known as "half chickens," larger than Intruders at 6 - 8" or more.

BTW, when Paker wrote a page back about delivering a quote with a Thurston Howell accent (I think he was referring to Gilligan's Island? I'm not sure), that was the wrong character. The better reference is ol' H2O, Hale Harrington Orviston from "The River Why." It's a movie now, but came out as a novel in 1983 and is genuinely hilarious. Gus' dad is a level 5 or better ascot-wearing, tweed coat, cigar and Scotch high falutin' fly fishing magazine writer, and lets everyone know it. Gus' mom was a country girl raised on the banks of Orygun's Deschutes River and fishes worms. So Gus grows up in the tradition of eternal family squabbles over fishing methods, but he attains a synergistic fishing prowess greater than his mom and dad combined. If you haven't, read it. You'll bust a gut. It's way funnier than this thread.

Sg

I think of the H2O and Ma juxtaposition quite often when we get into these diatribes. The River Why is one of the best books ever written. The movie, unfortunately, sucked butt. No real surprise.

Why not use a plug? Because then it wouldn't be fly fishing...duh.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzing!!

Stam,

". . . the self appointed keepers of the true faith . . ."

And this would be you, right? I mean, you've fly fished all of what, once? Yet here you are, monitoring the goings on of fly fishing, contributing to our high brow, high falutin' fly fishing discussions, in a strictly and consistently negative manner. And my list is my list. Yours is yours and is in no way a rebuttal, and calling it that sounds defensive. What's to defend? There's nothing to rebutt. Your list, should you compile one, is irrelevant to me.

Dan,

No ziinnnnngggg noticed or felt. My sensibilities must be numb. That, or Stam's ascot has choked off my air supply and thence my nerves.

And to think tying a Skunk in Intruder style caused all this! It could only be better if we were all juiced up.

Sg

Who says we're not?

Fish on...

Todd

Ya' got a point Todd. But I'm not, altho I favor the notion of keeping a fifth in the lower right hand desk drawer. However management would frown on it.

That's why some of us prefer to be self-managed

One last point...folks can take it how they please, and apply it to themselves or others as much or little as they would like.

In some situations people talk as if they are speaking well known and altogether obvious and simple facts...the problem is that they have accepted them as obvious and simple facts, and they are not. This in turn leads to them sounding like pompous ascot wearers when they truly do not feel that they bear even the slightest resemblance to one.

If we were talking about actual and measurable facts, then that's one thing...but in this case we are not, not by a long, long length.

It's not a perfect fit, but it would be like telling a long time racist that grew up in Alabama that he's being a racist...I have no doubt that he truly disagrees with that, and that he also truly thinks that what he is saying is not just true, but accepted Gospel, and that said racist is very offended by being called a racist.

Being an elitist is not something you try to do...it's something you are without trying, like Mitt Romney saying that the few hundred thousand he makes from speaking engagements is just peanuts...because to him, not only is it peanuts, but he has no idea that the other 99.9% of the nation does not consider it peanuts.

He truly thinks it is peanuts.

Fish on...

Todd

P.S. I think I'll rate this thread as a "Five Star"...it's got it all.

How well do those fancy feathers hold scent?

Depends...we talkin' Polo, or Chanel?

Fish on...

Todd

Uh oh, the subject of politics has been breached.

I am out.

Following up Todd's thought. Salmo, in his introspective and thoughtful response a while back now, made a comment about not being aware of all of his biases. None of us are, which is one of the reasons I enjoy these types of discussions. Quite often they have encourage if not forced me to look at my thoughts, actions, and attitudes and consider the reasons for their existence. Through a few of these types exchanges I feel like I have definitely had my mind opened and considered some things that I otherwise would not have. At the very least hopefully we can gain more of a mutual understanding of our fellow fishers even if we might don't agree with or understand their perspective.

...all of that, plus it is fun to call bullshite and point out the ascotholes

Believe me............it was a solid Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzing.

Your Spidey senses must be dulled by the presence of bait thugs or something.

Todd,

I've assumed that your "last point" has been in active play since the first comeback regarding my questioning tying the Prom Dress to simulate a plug. This is a discussion of far more opinions than facts. I think sharing our opinions helps all of us broaden our respective perspectives, for those who are open to it. I'm having fun; I presume all participants are, or why else bother to post? I have no illusions about my posts here being gospel or anything close to it. This isn't like the main board where I do my best to share objective information on fish management, biology, ecology, etc. My pompous arrogant H2O tone is part of the act, and it usually works pretty good. I get more bites in here than I have fishing this year. I 'spose that makes me a troll.

AP,

Feathers hold scent well, but the problem is that then they smoosh down and have little or no action. So ya' makes yer choice, go for the visual or the smell. Ya' get one, but not both.

Coley,

Aye that. That's my primary reason for contributing what I have here. However I confess that as soon as Stam reveals his button being pushed I just can't resist probing a bit to see what pushes draw the most reaction. That's my mean streak, but my defense is the devil makes me do it.

OK Stam,

If my posts are nauseous I figure you wouldn't bother reading, let alone responding. And I apologize to the extent I've been pushing your bait button. But you have an eloquence of your own that makes it too fun to pass up.

As for my list, it isn't skewed. It's my list, and it's based on my experience and observation. I'm not putting anybody down with it. That's a value and judgement you're assigning to it, which you're free to do, but that's not my doing. As evidence, I never mentioned any of the drift fishing pioneers who you name, so clearly this is a put down that you're inventing. I don't judge people by how they choose to fish. If I did, I wouldn't spend the time I do on this forum. Instead I've found this to be a valuable place that transcends fishing methods and a lot more.

BTW, the first recorded sport fishing for steelhead in the U.S. was fly fishing, not drift fishing. Not trying to poke you in the eye with a stick, just sharing the history. Fly fishing tackle existed before spinning and casting reels, so it's natural and logical that the first attempts to catch steelhead on hook and line was with fly gear - greenheart and bamboo rods, those reels made in England I (humorously) referred to on page 1 or 2, silk lines and gut leaders. The first drift fishing I know of actually used fly rods and reels (and I kinda' thought maybe Todd was referring to that a couple pages back) linen line, gut leaders and worms or roe for bait. The method was known as strip casting, and was popular on the NF Stilly and Sky pre and post WWII.

As for your plug pulling example, we both know that is the exception to the rule and would be a difficult trick for anyone to pull off. And that example hardly exemplifies the far more typical plug pulling alongside the high bank side of the slow hole for 200 yards where the boatman is still doing all the work, all the fishing, and the front seaters are boat ballast in terms of who is fishing. And if people choose to do that as a conscious choice or because they really have a limited understanding of steelheading, I don't care. I'm not judging those foks, but I am judging the method in terms of what it means to me and how I would stack it up with alternative methods. I'm drawing a distinction between fishing tackle and methods and judging people. It looks like you make no such distinction and that it's all the same to you.

The pinnacle of the sport is whatever you decide it is for you, and I for me. While I might rate an upstream drag free dead drifting dry fly as the pinnacle of my steelheading, I don't for general trout fishing. That's how I've caught most of my stream trout, and so I've been practicing nymphing for trout, partly to broaden my fishing horizon and also because I know full well that trout eat nymphs for about 90% of their diet, not dry flies. And because nymphing, at least at the start, turns out to be more difficult than fishing dries.

And:
". . . I just don't appreciate the attitude.. and that is what I enjoy monitoring..." Man, that's just sick, or perverse, or something. And of course there's attitude. This is the fly fishing forum, and I've made a heck of an effort to exude the attitude. That you find it offensive and a put down to you and people who you hold in high esteem is funny, as in funny odd to me, since you invented the ascot fly label, and this forum is replete with all kinds of comments about fairy wands, Spey pride, and elite fly fags, and you've been azzcrack deep in most of that. Are you suggesting I should take some offense at that? I've interpreted that attitude is part and parcel of the schtick here. I could be wrong.

Dan,

I don't think I have Spidey senses, but whatever senses they are have surely been numbed by bait thuggery. But I'm off the clock now and intend to dull them with something else.

Sg

I am too lazy/smart to bother reading this entire thread. But do want to note that with hard work, perseverance and innate ability one can achieve proficiency that exceeds their peers in any method and that the level of difficulty in achieving extraordinary proficiency at any given method can be extreme. Yet climbing that pinnacle does not appeal to everyone, nor should it. (I think in some cases the quest for perfection takes all the enjoyment from the activity.) Many just want to have a good time on the water.

I will be the first to admit the float and jig fishing is relatively easy. Hell, that's why I like it. I like catching fish. But try keeping up with Nick Amato when you are both fishing floats and I'm pretty sure he will school ya. I see even less skill required to huck a fly out there and let it swing across the river.
Bill Herzog wrote what many consider to be the quintessential book on drift fishing but thinks mastering spoon fishing is more difficult. In his opinion swinging a fly is the least demanding way to fish. Note least demanding and most productive are not the same thing by a dan site.

I enjoy it all including fly fishing. It seems to me that whoever has the most fun wins. If you can have more fun than I do and avoid thinking you are somehow superior because of the method you choose you are a real winner.

^This is where the thread turned. If this was all said t.i.c. then it definitely went over my head. If you don't see judgement going on then, well, as Stam said...

I'd say this is a misconception that is worth pointing out. Perhaps I'm just out-of-the-loop but I just don't see people "looking down on flyfishermen". Non-flyfishermen simply don't hang out all night curing eggs and talking trash about flyfishermen. I guess I just don't think the line exists like a lot of people do?

LMAO (lauging my ascot off). This thread is great!

Funny you mention that book Salmo. I'm working my way through it now. It is a good read. This thread is a good read too. Some things you just can't make up.

So true Sam. I can hardly wait for the movie version of this thread!

I think Billy Bob Thornton should play Stam.

George Clooney or Brad Pitt for me...obviously.

I am still thinking on the others...

Maybe Pierce Brosnan or Sean Connery for Salmo

and this guy for Chucky?

Here ya go:

I couldn't help myself. When I stop laughing I will get around to apologizing

AP. Brilliant!

Excellent!

Fish on...

Todd

P.S. I knew this thread had legs.

Wait a minute, if Stam's good, Salmo's bad, that makes me...

twoshay

Still need characters for Todd and KK.

Wait, I think KK has previously been represented as the creeper from Silence of the Lambs. I will poke around on gamefishin for Todd's doppelganger.

Try and find a brilliant and very good looking character who stands to the side and points and laughs...that one would be me

Fish on...

Todd

P.S. Where's bantam's character? It is, after all, his thread.

Got it.




Bantam? Nearly forgot about him Sorry about that anyhow Luis. didn't mean to drag you innocently through the mud in all of this. He is probably second guessing his foray into the ascot arena after watching this unfold.

Pretty much perfect, 'cept I don't think ET laughs...I'd just play myself if I could conjure up the creation of "Spey Pride!" as I floated past the Spey Clave on the bar at Barnaby as I caught back to back fish on worms

Fish on...

Todd

All I know is stam was just quoting The Good, The Bad and The Ugly.

And that makes him f'n cool.

Insert walter brennan
photo for kk. for myself jason robards would do nicely.

Throw in some Josey Wales and it would be over the top.

Bantam















































the worlds smallest Filipino!

yes.

Tony's real future in the coffee world



Coley's big secret

Alaska is just a cover.....

Well played sir.

This thread never disappoints.

Fish on...

Todd

Im just glad I have so many friends on here, especially the ones who pick on the vertically challenged.....fvcken assh0les! See you the rivers b!itches!

Sorry you got kinda' left out Luis. I almost forgot we were trying to talk about the how and why of fly pattern development. Threads do have a way of going off on a tangent around here. Must be because everyone is so . . . tangential.

Great to see Roberto Duran back in action, but it looks like he's about the lay his infamous Hands Of Stone "nap time" knockout on a midget or a baby.........or a ???

Ah Ha! New word for the day.

Tangential: "divergent or digressive, as from a subject under consideration: tangential remarks." (dictionary dot com)

Not only is this thread entertaining, but, educational!!!

I think that between this thread and the "Sage One" thread you can learn all you'll ever need to know about flyfishing!



Fish on...

Todd

Provided you don't intend to actually fly fish.

Sg

And then some.

So true. For some, there can be a difference. NTTAWWT.

Doc?

WTF?

stam-

It took me a minute, but.................

It's okay, salmo, you just need to get yourself a translator

There's definitely a difference between "flyfishing" and "fishing with flies"...but the difference is more stark between "flyfishing" and "fly casting"...even when the "fly casting" is done on a river, with a fly.

Fish on...

Todd

Last word!

Don't think I ever had that with Todd before.

Neither has anyone else.

Today's word of the day is

immutable.

I had to look it up.

Good one.

Pardon the resurrection.

Bantam's Pinktruder, the final installment.



That is it Luis, I am done and the final batch is in the mail. I am not tying another intruder for a long, long time

You better catch something on one of these after all you have put us through.

No. I am over tying things, trimming things, and organizing things. I am ready for the ice to melt and the water to come back.

For the record, I think Avid is into the cripples (especially the older ones) not me.

Those look pretty nice there Coley.

Maybe you should take up rod building

Pinktruder be good. Pink and purple combo be good too. Coley, I'm finding I'm needing some large but unweighted patterns. Got any without the dumbell eyes? I literally ran out the other day, and I hate running out of bait. Either I have to tie the next few nights, or use a floating line and long leader next week to use the weighted -truders I have.

You guys read the part where I said I was going to put my vise into a dark corner and ignore it for a long time right?

If'n your serious and not just mocking me, I might be able to come up with a few more before going into retirement. For Bantam's I tied half with 3/16" I-ballz and half with bead chain eyes, which are quite a bit lighter. I don't have any unweighted on-hand, but could change that without too much headache.

Stam, you shoppin for spring plans or fall plans? I will get a care package together for you.

Salmo's Purple and Pink lightweight-truder?

Good looking bait there, my friend. That dog will hunt!

I've been putting 3 or 4 strips of purplish-pink flashabou down each side, and wow!, that adds a lot of flash to the fly.

Good idea about the bead chain, like with bonefish flies, keeps the attraction that eyes add without significant weight. I shoulda' thought of that.

Chronomid's, plural, you had a minimum order of two remember?

Emergers. Show me an example and a parts list and I might be able to figger it out. No promises. I am in the hills 15 of the next 17 days though...

That KK, he's a big spender all right. Yeah, that flashabou is right up there, about 1/20th the cost of decent hackle I suppose. Totally violates the "all natural materials" rule however, sending me to the ranks of the bait thugs and un-ascot worthy. But I seem to be getting over it OK.

I can't believe all the tiny trout hooks I still have laying around. I used to tie all my trout flies. A few years back I realized that flies size 14 and smaller are for younger eyes to tie. A few more years and I'm gonna' need my own young ghillie to tie flies on my leader riverside in order to fish.

Yeah, I wear 3x to tie all flies including Intruders. 2x on the river to tie to leader.

. . . and then comes along the perennial PP smart azz thinks he knows it all punk who isn't smart enough to know yet that he's still a long ways from knowing sh!t to weigh in yet again with adolescent blather. Thank you for your insipid contribution. Don't know how we got along without it.

Abu, you might study up and learn how to tell a joke. It may not have filtered down to your level yet, but there's a distinct difference between saying something that is humorous and saying something stupid. You can probably find online info about how to make a good joke. Good luck.

And if by grouchy you mean someone who has a low tolerance for stupidity, well then, yes, I'm grouchy.

Jeak,

Pay no mind to Salmo.

He has no say in what is deemed funny and what isn't.



I make those decisions.

That Dan S. guy, he wrote the book on how to make a joke.

I did too.

Granted, I find humor in a lot of things.

I like where Coley said he was retired and then was promptly asked to make more flies.

I like the flies that Coley tied.

I like jake's contribution, and I like Salmo g.'s response to it.

I've chuckled a lot at this thread.

Mostly I like that it's still alive.

This weekend I used a centerpin, with a DNE float, and a plastic bead...does that count as flyfishing? I didn't wear an ascot.

I caught a lot of fish, too...that right there might be the best evidence that it's not flyfishing.

TIA for your input.

Fish on...

Todd

I just finished reading "The River Why". I checked it out from the library after it was mentioned in this thread. Dang good book!