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#747250 - 03/14/12 02:19 PM Re: Alleged Afghan shooter is from JBLM [Re: Todd]
stam Offline
Model Citizen,Sneaky, Zero Discipline!

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 8751
Loc: wherever I want to be...
I wish there was this much outrage for even one of our soldiers killed in or even out of action.
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#747372 - 03/14/12 07:40 PM Re: Alleged Afghan shooter is from JBLM [Re: stam]
Hankster Offline
Blue Haired Bay Area Hippie!WILLING DISPENSER OF SAGE ADVICE

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 23229
Loc: City By The Bay
Originally Posted By: stam
I wish there was this much outrage for even one of our soldiers killed in or even out of action.



A big "Amen" to that. thumbs
_________________________
Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.

There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him.
-Robert A. Heinlein









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#747376 - 03/14/12 07:43 PM Re: Alleged Afghan shooter is from JBLM [Re: ]
Todd Offline
Bumpin the 6X9's

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 21526
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Originally Posted By: AuntyM
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/dec/01/nation/la-na-court-combat1-2009dec01

"Our nation has a long tradition of according leniency to veterans in recognition of their service, especially for those who fought on the front lines as [George] Porter did," the justices said in a unanimous, unsigned opinion.
-------------------

That was a civilian case, but even the US Supreme Court understood what can happen to a man when he's been subjected to the horrors of war and having to kill or be killed.

Are the Supremes just making excuses?




I think everyone understands that... but it didn't change his conviction, they just set aside his sentence of death.

If the Court found that his PTSD rendered unable to tell the difference between right and wrong at the time he committed the murders (which is the M'Naughton rule, the standard for how an insanity plea or competency hearing is conducted), then that would be a wholly different matter.

Fish on...

Todd

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#747381 - 03/14/12 07:50 PM Re: Alleged Afghan shooter is from JBLM [Re: Todd]
Todd Offline
Bumpin the 6X9's

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 21526
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
...and, as an aside, reports are coming back that he walked back to his barracks, set down his weapon, and surrendered...that would make it pretty clear to me that he was in no way legally insane at the time of the murders.

Usually the "support our troops" crowd and the "tough on crime" crowd are the same crowd...this time they'll have to pick a side, without being hypocrites, which will be very difficult.

For me, at least, I'm fully in the "support our troops" crowd, but when one of them goes apeshit and shoots a bunch of innocent civilians, well, it's hard to throw much support his way. If he's found to be innocent by way of insanity, then I'll accept that. If he's not, and gets gassed, I'll accept that. If they find a lesser sentence, and base it on his service, then I'm even more ok with that.

He'll get no excuses for what he did from me, though.

If there were folks at the VA or wherever who knew or should have known that this guy was no longer fit for service, then I think they should be run up the flagpole right after him.

I feel sorry for him, and others like him, because it's pretty fukked up to be trained to be a killer, then not be one, but there are a few hundred thousand other soldiers over there, and a few million more in the past, that managed to kill the enemy without going on a rampage and shooting up a family or other civilians.

Fish on...

Todd

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#747472 - 03/15/12 06:48 AM Re: Alleged Afghan shooter is from JBLM [Re: ]
eddie Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 1862
Loc: Kent, WA
Marsha, the Supremes made no excuse for murder. They said that mitigating circumstances (PTSD, combat, etc.) provided reasons for reducing the penalty. Huge difference.

Yes, we trained this man to be a killer. However, he voluntarily joined and as has been said before, there are millions more who were trained that did not kill women and children in a cold blooded way.
_________________________
"You're not a g*dda*n looney Martini, you're a fisherman"

R.P. McMurphy - One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest

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#747479 - 03/15/12 07:58 AM Re: Alleged Afghan shooter is from JBLM [Re: eddie]
Illyrian Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/20/09
Posts: 1473
Loc: Spokane, wa
I remember Mai lai. Calley had a lot of help in shooting up that local.
and he took most of the hit after rather than the mentality that relegates the indigents to enemies all.

What ever made the Sgt decide to off a bunch of civilians, women and
kids, is beyond my ken but I don't think he is 'Criminally insane' by the
definition. Maybe they should send him to Fort Hood to be evaluated
by the shrinks there.

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#747825 - 03/16/12 07:07 AM Re: Alleged Afghan shooter is from JBLM [Re: ]
Hankster Offline
Blue Haired Bay Area Hippie!WILLING DISPENSER OF SAGE ADVICE

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 23229
Loc: City By The Bay
The U.S. staff sergeant suspected of killing 16 Afghan villagers had been drinking alcohol - a violation of military rules in combat zones - and suffering from the stress related to his fourth combat tour and tensions with his wife about the deployments on the night of the massacre, a senior American official said Thursday.

The American official said the military was preparing to move the sergeant to a prison in the United States as early as today, most likely to Fort Leavenworth, Kan., just a day after he was flown to a detention site in Kuwait from Afghanistan.

The suspect also saw a friend's leg blown off the day before the rampage, his lawyer said Thursday. Seattle attorney John Henry Browne said that according to his client's family, the staff sergeant was standing next to another U.S. soldier when that soldier was gravely injured, the Associated Press reported. He offered no other details of the incident, and it isn't clear whether it prompted the horrific middle-of-the-night attack. The Army still has not named the soldier.
_________________________
Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.

There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him.
-Robert A. Heinlein









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#747833 - 03/16/12 07:57 AM Re: Alleged Afghan shooter is from JBLM [Re: Hankster]
Hankster Offline
Blue Haired Bay Area Hippie!WILLING DISPENSER OF SAGE ADVICE

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 23229
Loc: City By The Bay
An Iraq war veteran said by his family to be suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder killed his 11-year-old sister and himself in their Gilroy apartment, and authorities fear he may have also wounded or slain his mother, police said Thursday.

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2012/03/15/BAP61NLM6A.DTL#ixzz1pIAFZrO9
_________________________
Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.

There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him.
-Robert A. Heinlein









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#748452 - 03/18/12 04:08 PM Re: Alleged Afghan shooter is from JBLM [Re: Hankster]
Slab Happy Offline
WINNER

Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 10479
Loc: Discovery Bay, Wa.
This whole story saddens me and the media is loving it. I thought at first that he had volunteered for a fourth tour and figured that he was doing what he wanted to be doing.
Then I found out that he was "sent over" and was having family problems and unhappy about another tour (who could blame him?). The whole thing really sucks. Four combat tours is too much for anyone....so is three.
His thinker was no doubt so screwed up with being powerless to do anything about "home", that I'm guessing he said to himself....."I'm getting out of here.....NOW! To Hell with the price!"

Desperate men do desperate things. Very sad.
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#748457 - 03/18/12 04:20 PM Re: Alleged Afghan shooter is from JBLM [Re: Slab Happy]
Sol Duc Offline
12-25-1997

Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 9439
Loc: Bellevue
He won't get the death penalty.
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#748557 - 03/19/12 07:10 AM Re: Alleged Afghan shooter is from JBLM [Re: Sol Duc]
Chuck S. Offline
Purple Passion

Registered: 02/19/03
Posts: 14375
Loc: waiting on the hope and change...
Originally Posted By: Sol Duc
He won't get the death penalty.


Shouldnt even be considered.

The military screwed this young man up. It isnt any more complicated than that. Now, while his wife is here losing their home he is going to be sent to some military prison.
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#748569 - 03/19/12 08:51 AM Re: Alleged Afghan shooter is from JBLM [Re: Chuck S.]
Illyrian Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/20/09
Posts: 1473
Loc: Spokane, wa

His wife and kids are victims too. But of who? His commanding
officers perhaps. Those that used him once too many times. jail

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#748767 - 03/19/12 07:59 PM Re: Alleged Afghan shooter is from JBLM [Re: Illyrian]
eddie Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 1862
Loc: Kent, WA
Bearing in mind that this man is innocent until proven guilty, I still have to call BS on all the excuses that are being made about how this guy is a victim. That dishonors every combat soldier in theater that chooses not to deal with his/her issues by killing women and children. What next, we make excuses for Ted Bundy because his mother abandoned him?
_________________________
"You're not a g*dda*n looney Martini, you're a fisherman"

R.P. McMurphy - One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest

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#748773 - 03/19/12 08:11 PM Re: Alleged Afghan shooter is from JBLM [Re: eddie]
Chuck S. Offline
Purple Passion

Registered: 02/19/03
Posts: 14375
Loc: waiting on the hope and change...
How many tours of active war have you been through Eddie?

Every soldier has their own ability to cope with the downside of combat. It shouldn't surprise you that this country does a lousy job or evaluating our soldiers in/out of it.

Wanna bet that if he was held back after his 3rd tour of duty he would probably be home with his family right now.
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#748777 - 03/19/12 08:29 PM Re: Alleged Afghan shooter is from JBLM [Re: Chuck S.]
Todd Offline
Bumpin the 6X9's

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 21526
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Most everyone who goes apeshit and massacres multiple people was dealt some sort of shitsandwich by life...do they all get free passes, or just soldiers?

Fish on...

Todd

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#748783 - 03/19/12 08:50 PM Re: Alleged Afghan shooter is from JBLM [Re: ]
Todd Offline
Bumpin the 6X9's

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 21526
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Yes it is...and there's no way to make it less than it is...but soldiers who turn mass murderer aren't the only mass murderers who have had schit go sideways in their lives.

Fish on...

Todd

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#748787 - 03/19/12 09:00 PM Re: Alleged Afghan shooter is from JBLM [Re: Todd]
Dave Vedder Offline
Reverend Tarpones

Registered: 10/09/02
Posts: 8445
Loc: West Duvall
We need to get out of there NOW!! No way any of our fine patriots should have to do four tours in a hell hole. Why doesn't Obama or any of the Rs stand up and say let's stop this nonsense. WTF do we think we will accomplish with another summer there?

I heard yesterday that suicides and attempted suicides among our service people are through the roof. We are quick to send them, off to war - slow to take care of them when they return. 32,000 wounded in Iraq. It a damn crime.

This from Washington Post

LAST YEAR, 143 soldiers, 41 sailors, 41 Marines and 31 airmen took their own lives. For the first time, suicides in the Army have outpaced the rate for the same demographic group in the nation at large, with the highest number since the Pentagon began keeping track in 1980.


Edited by Dave Vedder (03/19/12 09:03 PM)
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No huevos no pollo.


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#748839 - 03/20/12 07:15 AM Re: Alleged Afghan shooter is from JBLM [Re: Dave Vedder]
eddie Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 1862
Loc: Kent, WA
Chuck, no I have not served in the Armed Forces. Does your question mean that for every other mass murderer, we can only understand if we have been:

orphaned
sexually abused
had drug addicted parents
lost family members due to murder
locked up in the home

I am very appreciative of this man's service and his mental state should absolutely be used as a mitigating factor in sentencing (if found guilty). But, it can never be used as an excuse for the act itself unless you are willing to let everyone else use any excuse that they have.


Edited by eddie (03/20/12 08:03 AM)
_________________________
"You're not a g*dda*n looney Martini, you're a fisherman"

R.P. McMurphy - One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest

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#748860 - 03/20/12 08:23 AM Re: Alleged Afghan shooter is from JBLM [Re: eddie]
Illyrian Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/20/09
Posts: 1473
Loc: Spokane, wa
There is no excuse. However, there are apparently some mitigating
circumstances. What he did, based on his training and who he is
is absolutely insane. For what it's worth I cannot accept the fact
that if he had just ate a bullet it would be no big deal. The chit
that goes on in the sand box called the ME is truly what the Heart
of Darkenss is all about.

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#748868 - 03/20/12 08:52 AM Re: Alleged Afghan shooter is from JBLM [Re: ]
eddie Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 1862
Loc: Kent, WA
Aunty, you are now dancing on the head of a pin. Some excuses for mass murder are more worthy than others. I don't consider myself unempathatetic in this, or any other, case. However, there has to be a reason why the other combat soldiers in theater have not resorted to this.
_________________________
"You're not a g*dda*n looney Martini, you're a fisherman"

R.P. McMurphy - One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest

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