There's a lot of you on this site that fish the Skykomish River. All I ask is from you is to take a minute or two to sign this petition so they don't put a pointless dam a section of wild fish spawning habitat! This only does not only effect wild salmon or steelhead runs, it will effect the upper trout runs and places where some of you grew to know how to fish!

http://www.savetheskyriver.org/?page_id=527

done

Don't sweat it, it'll be doing as well as the Skagit in no time...maybe they'll build a prison within the dam to help further boost the local economy.

Signed it.

"would produce minimal energy – less than 1% of their energy portfolio"

What a bunch of fvcking idiots! lets build a dam with $150 million dollars of hard working tax payers' money that will destroy valuable habitat, all to produce very little energy. Who's the genius that thought this one through.........!?

Done!

Done

done

Done - thanks for posting this!

One question -- if it's above the falls, is it really a wild fish spawning issue?

I'm a huge fan of protecting our rivers and fish, but choices are hard about how to get the power we need. Dams which are upriver of waterfalls seemed at least worth considering?

Done.

Signed it.

Finished.
-Any dam is just an accident waiting to happen.

Done!!! Thanks for posting this!!!

This is not only about the fish.... It also has to do with the landowners in the area, I also spend a good amount of time at a cabin in that general area... I could see a purpose of additional power for purposes as lost power due to mother nature, besides that I see no positive outcome of it.
This dam will effect the whole natural habitat in the whole system from the birds, the amphibians, to land creatures, it will effect the everything! Not just the fish.....

signed it

Done

Done

Done. Had the wife sign too. Emailed a bunch of dudes as well

Done.

Fully admit that I haven't studied this situation in great detail, and maybe I should have before signing the petition.

But I love that area. I am amazed at how close wilderness settings like the upper Sky are to the Seattle metro area.

We're always going to need more energy sources, but we can't create more areas with the natural beauty of the North and South Fork Sky. It doesn't seem worth it.

done and thanks for the heads up Bantam

Dams suck! Solar and wind energy is the way to go
I'll sign it even though I havnt fished that river... yet

Signed.

done

Done, thanks for putting this up!

Have you ever seen a solar farm or the damage wind turbines do to large raptors? They are called bird cuisinarts for a reason. Of course eagles and hawks aren't fish so they don't matter.

Done

Done.

There was a discussion here about this dam quite a few months ago and some said it would have little impact. However, the Sky means too much to me to allow any meddling with it. Humans have a lousy track record of playing god.

Thanks for the heads up Luis.

Save energy.... turn off your computers.


My home PSE bill for January was 24 dollars and some odd cents.... I've always wondered why we need so many street light and other needless lighting out there? Is the human race so asceered of the dark that we are willing to trade the earth for night light?


.... yeah, stupid question.

BOO-HISS!!! (signed)

signed it

When you're an international fisherman of mystery, one does not have the time or "energy" to be home anyway..........

There are wild fish above Sunset falls. I dont think this is the right way to go building a dam there. I would not support this and signed the petition.

wind would be the way to go there. I live in sultan and think if everyone on the block had small personal inclosed wind generators we would not need to burn wood or use electricity for months. they wouldn't even need to be super efficient. I just haven't been able to find one for sale.

This and the tidal power are insane.

As of 9am this morning we have reached just under 1100 online petition signatures! pretty good I must say for only being online for about 5 weeks now! lets keep it going!

Signed

Done

Signed and posted on Facebook for others to see.

Signed

The dam may be upriver from from a natural fish barrier but the siltation problems the dam will cause downriver is enough cause of concern for me.

Signed! Thanks Bantam.

Thanks for posting this Bantam. Most of us don't do enough (and I'm at the top of the list here) to promote or protect the areas we love.

We're in...

Too bad that this kind of interest and involvement has not or can not be generated on issues that really matter for the fish of the region!

The "dam" here is a relatively low weir to insure a constant diversion of water to the intake. From the project discription it looks like that "impoundment" behind that weir will have about 2 surface acres (average depth of 10 feet). Hardly the vision that comes to mind when talking about "daming" the South Fork Skykomish.

Interest in a low head hydro - run of the river project has been around since at least the early 1980s. These kinds of projects are a different animal than say the large "Spada" type projects. Snohomish County has two operating low head hydro projects in the Basin (one on Woods Creek and another on Youngs River) and a couple others proposed on tirbutaries of the North Fork Snoqualmie.

Maybe some folks here have had the chance to look at the Youngs River project can report on.

The big fish issue with projects like this are screen fish away from the intake, ramping rates at start up and shut down, and in this case attraction of adult fish to the fish trap at Sunset Falls. In saure that the tribes and various state and Federal agencies have been and will be all over the requirements to protect the fish.

BTW -
As part of the project it is reported the PUD will invest in upgrading the fish trap and haul facility at Sunset Falls. The facility is more than 50 years old and reaching the end of its useful life.

Tight lines
Curt

Who cares? Dams are a thing of the past, it's time to use an alternative source of power.

Curt, I am no biologist. However, I have made a few observations below dams that sometimes are forgotten. Do these observations apply to "run of the river" projects as well?

Let me know if I am off base:

Any dam will stop the natural flow of gravel to the spawning beds. For example the S. Fork Tolt; the only remaining native summer run steelhead in the snoqualmie system are starving for gravel to spawn on. This is due to the fact that these fish only spawn above the forks and only in the S Fork. Some years we have seen as low as 60 spawning pairs left in this system.

According to the the King County Snoqualmie/Skykomish watershed forum high water temperature is a major concern of this system. How much effect does a run of the river dam have on water temp? My guess is that more water surface area and discharge levels would increase water temp.

What are some of the other effects of this proposed dam on the Sky?

I signed the petition and hope to again enjoy steelhead fishing in march on the SKY in my lifetime!

Backtrollin -
Great observations on some of the impacts from the hydro dams here in the PNW!

However the situation on the South Fork Skykomish is a very different situation. As I mentioned the "impoundment pool" behind the proposed SF Skykomish project is estimated to be 20 acre feet while the SF Tolt dam impounds 57,500 acre feet of water. The SF Skykomish project is a low head project with a weir to insure water is divert to the pipeline intake and does not rely on storing water to generate power (the reason it has a dramatic lower capacity). Typically such diversion weirs are 10 feet or so high (I could not find any specs on the proposed project) while the South Fork Tolt dam is 200 feet high.

Since the SF Skykomish project is about diversion water to the intake it is safe to assume that it will have to be designed to pass gravel to insure that it will provide the water to the intake. In the Snohomish Basin a better Dam comparison in terms of gravel passage would be the City of Snohomish water diversion dam on the Pilchuck (though the water is not returned to the river). I don't recall anyone being worried about gravel recruitment on the Pilchuck.

Given the small size of the proposed impoundment from the SF Skykomish and the typically river flow I'm not sure that temperature would be much of an issue. As I recall the temperature issues in the basin are more on the Snoqualmie side of the basin (Pilchuck as well).

The big potential fish issues on the type of project being proposed include upstream adult passage, downstream pasage of the juveniles and flow issues in the by-pass reach. Without going into detailed here (I can if you wish) it looks to me they would be adequately addressed (maybe Salmo g can contribute more insight on this).

I too would hope to enjoy that spring steelhead fishing on the Sky! If I thought that opposing the SF Skykomish project would bring that day even one day sooner I would have been the first signing the petition!

I have no problem with folks opposing this project (I'm sure that locals would prefer to not have such a project in their backyards). As I state in my first post if folks are opposing it to protect the anadromous fish resources that time and effort is essentially wasted. There are any number of other issues (past, present, and future) that would be far more productive in that cause.

Tight lines
Curt

PUD can get their dam power somewhere else.

Done and sent a link to everyone I know.

Done

Done

I was hoping this thread was about banning sleds.

Wrong. Dams are the future for better or worse. The newer designs can generate a lot of energy.

Einstein's son was a hydrologist and a genius in his own right. He was obsessed with the power of water and knew it was our future. You can look into his life.

I am still against any dam in any fish passage area, especially this one.

But what alternatives are there? Most all energy is solar powered. How did that water get to the top of the mountain? What heating and cooling caused the winds?

I think it is safe to say that a dam powered world is more attainable than solar panel world or wind turbine world.

signed.

Signature completed.

People should be just as enthusiastic about the small stuff as the big stuff. After all we are resorted to the small stuff compared to the big C because of the dams it has. Who would want a disaster like that on a resource so close to many people's homes. I don't see any advantage to it, all I see is an impact to this watershed which is not wanted. Why the hell would anyone support it when they can not even access Sunset Falls as it is? If I can't access it why should another user group be allowed to build a frickin dam in it? Even if I could access it I would not want the moment destroyed by a frickin pile of shitt.

I really appreciate Bantam's enthusiasm for activism, but as this forum's unofficial hydroid I'll explain why I haven't and won't sign the petition.

Dams always have negative effects on rivers and their fish. Even when dams have beneficial effects, there are still negative impacts associated with development and operation of dams. The proposed Sunset Falls project is no different. The salient issue is "how much" effect. So far my worst case estimate of the negative fisheries impacts of the Sunset Falls project is that the negative effects may be enough to be measurable. Maybe measurable. That's kinda' different from dam projects that extirpate entire fish populations.

If Snohomish PUD develops Sunset Falls, it will be required to equip its water supply diversion with a NMFS criteria juvenile fish screen to prevent - that's prevent, not reduce - entrainment of any juvenile fish into the penstock that delivers water to the project turbine or turbines. So what is a NMFS criteria fish screen anyway? Most are made of stainless steel wedgewire with a bar spacing of 2 mm (two millimeters) which even a newly emerged pink salmon fry cannot squeeze through. Another requirement is that the water approach velocity cannot exceed 0.4 fps, so that said pink salmon fry can swim fast enough to avoid being impinged on the screen. Consequently the negative impacts of Sunset Falls on juvenile fish is likely to be low enough that they cannot be measured.

As Smalma mentioned, the PUD will also be required to maintain a minimum instream flow in the stream channel and over the falls sufficient to pass fish downstream and most probably to also maintain some aesthetic quality to the falls, which BTW are pretty spectacular.

Since Sunset Falls is a natural fish barrier, upstream fish passage would not normally be required. However, in order to build the project, the PUD needs space. Some of that space is currently owned by WDFW for the fish trap and haul operation that it has done there since the 1950s. In return for sharing some of that valuable and necessary space, the PUD would make much needed improvements and modernization, not of the fish ladder, but of all the associated fish trapping and sorting and loading and unloading activities that are necessary to maintain the naturally reproducing salmon, steelhead, and bull trout populations that inhabit the upper SF Skykomish watershed.

Other concerns that come up with projects of this sort include gravel transport and silt/sediment/erosion. The small dam would include provisions to pass gravel seasonally. The total silt and sediment generated from building the project would be temporary and amount to less than goes into the river during one typical autumn spate freshet, in other words, nothing I'm going to worry about.

I was contacted by a local group of project opponents and asked about project impacts to fish. I described much of what I wrote above and suggested that the most viable reason for opposition is the NIMBY position because the aesthetic qualities of Sunset Falls won't be improved by adding a hydro project to the scene, no matter how well it's executed. Apparently that wasn't the answer they were seeking as I haven't been contacted subsequently.

Sg

why screw with such a perfect thing?





NO DAMS on the South Fork!

Eagle, Canyon, and Sunset are awesome places, dont mess with it...

Redhook

In order to preserve/restore the scenery at Sunset how about supporting removal of the artificial trapping structures?

the fish traps have been there for a while now, and has helped tremendously... there is zero chance of a fish going up Sunset, the first of the 3 falls... and zero at Canyon as well... they need to be trucked up, otherwise, the pool below Sunset will become Poachfest and would have been done a long time ago... the traps are needed to make sure the fish can go even further up... taking them out, would be worse than putting a dam in...

Why would it become poachfest? I didn't think there was a public access. Now I see why they want a dam. A dam now is just a baby step, when and if this dam goes in they'll wait about 50 years and then try to build as big of a dam as possible. Screw a dam. I don't/won't support no fucin dam that fuks that thing up.

A message for the group(s) behind the dam: Why can't you find a better way to make power than a dam? Don't you understand that dam's are a big deal in this day and age as they relate to salmon/steelhead/trout/other fish? Many and I mean many people are against them, why does it seem like you need to push the envelope? WTH is the big dam deal? To put it in terms that relate to this day and age "FIND YOUR OWN DAM PLACE TO PLAY!". I mean it, I as well as many other people do not appreciate being pushed around like we don't belong here or something, you need to find a better dam way to take care of your business that doesn't affect people like me! Get on it! Find another dam way!

Salman,

You can be part of the solution by disconnecting yourself from the energy grid. Stop using any electricity, altho we will miss your posts on PP, get rid of your car and or truck so you don't use any gas or oil, and if you have a natural gas furnace, please disconnect that too. Energy is sold only because society demands it. Stop demanding it, and the dams and every other energy production facility and their negative environmental impacts go away.

BTW, what will the effects on fish be from the Sunset Falls hydro dam?

Sg

Society demands energy, nobody said it needs to come from a river although every uninformed person in Washington doesn't know the difference or care or will ever care. I don't want to know what the negative impacts would be to the fish. How will the dam help the fish?

Salman,

The dam won't help the fish. I already pointed that out. And the negative impacts to fish are estimated as negligible, which is in stark contrast to the many dams that have devastating fisheries impacts. My point is about choosing one's battles, and I choose to expend my energy opposing those projects that have significant impacts and that would be difficult or impossible to mitigate.

Energy doesn't have to come from rivers, but hydro is renewable, cleaner, and more cost effective than natural gas, oil, and nuclear. And while not cleaner than solar and wind, hydro is more reliable and cost effective. Leaving hydro out of one's energy portfolio is a deliberate choice to increase pollution of the environment.

The logical alternative would be to reduce one's energy consumption. However, that is exactly the point that makes this subject relevant to fishermen. Fishermen are notoriously heavy energy users. As a group we travel long distances, and usually in fuel guzzling vehicles to tow our boats that also burn excessive fuel, or to enhance our manly self images. You can't have it both ways. Fish need healthy rivers in order to be abundant, but fishermen consume massive amounts of energy in order to pursue them. I guess this makes fishermen unavoidably hypocrites, so it becomes a matter of how far down that path one goes.

And while the Sunset Falls dam won't directly help fish, as has been pointed out, the PUD would upgrade, and I think also assume operational costs, of the fish passage facility that is well beyond its useful economic life. At a time when WDFW needs to make tough budgetary choices, abandoning the uneconomical Sunset Falls fishway is a realistic option. It's difficult to ignore a relatively benign hydro project that could pre-empt making that tough choice about the obsolete fishway.

As I said in my initial post, the best reason for opposing the project is the NIMBY position. The project definitely will not enhance the aesthetic value of Sunset Falls. Might as well be clear and straight about the reasons for opposing the project.

Sg

What is this dam going to do? I mean how much power is it going to support and save people money, I really doubt it is as effective as they think it is. I'll never give in. A guess woud be some developer wants to put in a big development up there and did some talking to whoever in order to get cheaper electricity than if it were to come from the next closer power station. This would be at least the second new dam on the Snohomish system within the last few years.

Salman,

Why guess when you can easily verify? The Snohomish PUD commissioners decided a while back to develop renewable energy resources within Snohomish County. Snohomish PUD owns very little in the way of energy generating resources (Jackson on the Sultan, Woods Ck, and Youngs Ck). They buy most of their power from BPA, the mid-Columbia PUDs, and other public and private energy producers.

The project is tentatively designed (won't know for sure until they study it more) at about 25 MW, which by rule of thumb provides power to about 25,000 people. In reality, most hydro projects average generation is about one-half of the total capacity because they don't run at full generation all the time because river flows vary through the seasons. The way it saves money is through ownership and having greater certainty over future energy costs. It won't cause current energy prices to go down. I'm not sure what you mean by how effective it will be. I cfs of water falling 14' = 1 kwh of electricity. That's determined by the laws of physics; kind of hard to change that.

Any developer anywhere in Snohomish Co. will have to buy his electricity from Sno PUD. They are the only supplier in the county unless the developer goes off the grid and generates his own power. So the power will cost the same if it is supplied by Sno PUD, regardless of whether it is generated by the Sultan R. project, Youngs Ck, Sunset Falls, or one of the Columbia River dams. The PUD has a set pricing structure, and your rate is determined by what category of customer you are.

I don't care if you give in or not, but if you want to effectively oppose the project you'll need to know what you're talking about and articulate a persuasive argument against the project. Good luck.

Sg

Sounds like a way for PUD to put the money right in their pocket to me. No effect at all on the consumer other than the local PUD gets to sell them electricity that they generated in order to not have to be the middleman to BPA.

Salman,

Remember the part in my last post where I said you need to know what you're talking about? PUD stands for "Public Utility District." As a public entity there is zero profit. The PUD sells electricity to cover the costs of producing and obtaining it and selling it to its customers in Snohomish Co. The "pocket" you refer to is the citizenry of Snohomish Co. who buy electricity from the PUD. By by-passing BPA or any other middleman, more money stays in the pockets of the county citizen customers. Looks like you have a lot to learn about how this stuff works.

Sg

It won't cause current energy prices to go down.
By by-passing BPA or any other middleman, more money stays in the pockets of the county citizen customers.

Based on your responses one could believe just about anything.

Sg, I think you explained this as clearly as anyone ever could. If anyone still doesn't understand your words, then I'd surmise they are letting bias cloud their understanding.

Yes, thank you SG for your input, I'm still a no go for no dammo on the SkytuckyO!

The fish issue is one small part of a many pronged approach to resist the dam.

I hear all this outrage on this subject and your preaching to the choir.......ah men.

Now how about preaching to the three Snohomish County Public Utility Commissioners and give them your opinion of this bright idea at the three email addresses below.
Take off the gloves and hit them with your best shot!


emailkathyvaughn@snopud.com

emailtanyaolson@snopud.com

emaildavidaldrich@snopud.com

As a postcard picture, and from a purely natural perspective, its just "some rusty old steel" vs "newer concrete" with the later looking somewhat falls-like as depicted.

Both leave a bit to be desired from that POV, but one option supposedly will provide some cleaner energy back to the ever growing power grid, and some needed $$ for our fish traps with very low impact to our fish?

Something to think about for sure...

Those shots are actually from above the falls, which start just downstream of the very foreground of the picture, so if you are looking at the falls from below (the only easily accessible view of them), they're going to look just the same, only with the dam up above it where the RR bridge is now.

Fish on...

Todd

And i'm pretty sure the dam won't be that tall, either.

Then, again, we are told to trust the Feds to require all the state of the art fish passage required. Kinda like is required it at all dams like Cowlitz, CR, etc.

Done

Done,
Hope my vote helps NO MORE DAMS

Posted today on komo 4...


http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Organ...y&smobile=y

What a goof that guy was who was saying "what people don't realize is this is not the next Grand Coulee Dam". What he doesn't realize is that the people who are against this dam know how big it is and don't want one regardless of how big or small it is, plain and simple.

done again i guess??

done

Yea! This brought the Dr. back!

Good to hear from you Doc.

Thanks Twitch and JG,

I had to step out of the game for awhile and am happy to be back.

Sincere Thanks and Very Best,

Rick

Nice to see you around, Rick!

Fish on...

Todd

Here's a link to a anti-Sunset Falls dam website. Don't be shy, send SnoPUD an e-mail with your thoughts.

http://www.americanrivers.org/newsroom/blog/dnonemacher-20120526-saving-the-sky.html

Done

signed

Done.

I'll be damned,if I'd curb a dam.

I vote hydro-electric.

Stick must be bored

grinolla krunchers are rooteenlie whyning bunchers.

Or drunk.

I like the "look how smart I am" Stick better than the "look what a fuckin idiot I am" Stick...I guess you can't have it all.

Fish on...

Todd

I don't think that is Stick. Reminds me of some other troll tho.

Better late than never. Think most of the local TU guys have signed on.