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#756948 - 05/01/12 12:03 AM Re: Boat Down on Cowlitz [Re: Saundu]
ColeyG Offline
Ranger Danger

Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 3098
Loc: AK
Originally Posted By: Saundu
"your not the first guy that's lost an anchor on this river."



I've been part of two anchor donations on that river.
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#756965 - 05/01/12 01:32 AM Re: Boat Down on Cowlitz [Re: ColeyG]
Moravec Offline


Registered: 03/27/08
Posts: 1045
Loc: Snoqualmie WA/Cordova AK
Thank the good lord this is not a "fatality" post...everyone made it out safe. Often, our experience with boats makes us brush off this fact. Stay vigilant, you never know when you will be in their shoes!!
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#756970 - 05/01/12 06:08 AM Re: Boat Down on Cowlitz [Re: Moravec]
GutZ Offline
The Original Boat Ho

Registered: 02/08/00
Posts: 2954
Loc: Bellevue
Amazing as it sounds, years ago(20+) saw two dudes on one of those Seyvlor blow up kayaks with a bunch of gear , try and make it from the island (no idea how they made it over there) to the launch . As they were swept past the launch, they turned and began to paddle like hell for the launch. Just a few moments and they were into the trees and turned over. I can remember yelling with all I had and getting the attention of a sled who was back behind the island. He Plucked one out of river and one off of bank. Two lucky mofo's.

I lost an anchor in the very same spot. Tough day on Cow with no anchor. I did have my kicker and can recall that I got a Springer on a blue metallic hotshot. Right were all of the trailers are.
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It's better to have friends with boats
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#756980 - 05/01/12 11:00 AM Re: Boat Down on Cowlitz [Re: GutZ]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
When the upstream end (stern) of the boat goes under water, it fills the entire boat up within seconds.

The stern gets underwater when the weight in the back, current, and angle of the rope add up to more downward force than there is floatation force pushing upwards.

The shorter your anchor rope, the more the force pulls straight down, as the "downward force" is coming directly at the angle of the anchor rope.

The faster the current, the more force that is being exerted down the anchor rope angle.

The more weight in the back of the boat, the less force that is required to pull the stern under.

Can't really math it out, per se, as there are a lot of variables within those three main ones...but the moral is to not overweight your boat, don't anchor in heavy water, and more anchor rope will lead to less downward force on your boat.

Your anchor does not have to be stuck for any of this to happen, but if it is stuck you are in a much worse position...you can actually pull yourself underwater by pulling up on the anchor rope...anchor doesn't move, but boat gets pulled down.

Fish on...

Todd
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#756981 - 05/01/12 11:07 AM Re: Boat Down on Cowlitz [Re: Todd]
IdahoSH Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 08/22/11
Posts: 251
Loc: On the Rogue
good info Todd.

that story makes your hair crawl just reading it.
glad it had a happy ending.
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#757015 - 05/01/12 02:59 PM Re: Boat Down on Cowlitz [Re: IdahoSH]
Direct-Drive Offline
ExtenZe Field Tester

Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 8060
Loc: Vancouver, WA
Sometimes Stupid Tax includes equipment loss or worse.
Glad they made it out.



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NO STEP ON SNEK

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#757031 - 05/01/12 03:50 PM Re: Boat Down on Cowlitz [Re: Direct-Drive]
kalamageo Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 02/27/07
Posts: 297
Loc: Oly
I too have ALMOST lost an anchor in that area. In much lower flows, I used to enjoy anchor fishing herring in that area. I had to let out all my anchor rope and row to shore to try and get a different angle on the stuck anchor. got it back but almost swamped myself trying to pull it up.

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#757035 - 05/01/12 04:35 PM Re: Boat Down on Cowlitz [Re: Todd]
ColeyG Offline
Ranger Danger

Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 3098
Loc: AK
Originally Posted By: Todd


The shorter your anchor rope, the more the force pulls straight down, as the "downward force" is coming directly at the angle of the anchor rope.

The faster the current, the more force that is being exerted down the anchor rope angle.

The more weight in the back of the boat, the less force that is required to pull the stern under.

Can't really math it out, per se, as there are a lot of variables within those three main ones...but the moral is to not overweight your boat, don't anchor in heavy water, and more anchor rope will lead to less downward force on your boat.


The relationship between load and angle/direction of force applied fits under the umbrella of vector force analysis, something that comes into play in the climbing/rescue world all of the time. Mathing it out is definitely possible, but to do that you would need to collect a lot of super boring information such as forward speed of the boat, current speed, weight of the boat and occupants, coefficient of friction between anchor and substrate, angle that water impacts the stern, on and on. The common sense method is a lot easier and more practical.

As has been stated, a steeper angle is achieved with less scope, or anchor rope in service. The steeper the angle, the more the force is applied in a downward direction. The amount of force is a significant factor, as is the direction in which it is being applied. Take the same load or force factor and apply it at two drastically different vector angles, and you will get very different force values in the critical area, in this case the stern of the boat. The same amount of force exists in each equation, but it is dissipated and shared between the components very differently based on the vector angle.

So, as Todd said, consider your force factors or force potential. Weight of the boat, speed of the current, weight of the anchor and manner in which is dropped, etc. The perfect storm is a heavy load in the boat, poor job of weighting and balancing (favoring the rear), heavy flow, and a heavy anchor that is dropped quickly to the bottom and hangs up immediately. If all of these things happened to combine in one event, well, we have all seen how that can go.

So, how do you mitigate? One, don’t overload the boat. Two pay attention to weight and balance issues. Be very cautious about dropping the rock in heavy flows where there is the potential for the anchor to stick before an appropriate amount of anchor line is out. I anchor in heavy water all of the time and have never had an issue, due in large part to paying attention to what has been described above. Additionally, rather than drop the rock immediately to the bottom at full speed, I will often grab a few hard oar strokes to slow my forward speed, slowly lower the anchor to the bottom, and then pay out line slowly until an effective scope/angle has been achieved, sometimes dragging the anchor on the bottom gradually and/or gradually transferring load to the anchor while paying out line should the rock stick immediately.
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EZ Thread Yarn Balls

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#757036 - 05/01/12 04:35 PM Re: Boat Down on Cowlitz [Re: kalamageo]
STRIKE ZONE Offline
GOOD LUCK

Registered: 08/09/00
Posts: 12107
Loc: Hobart,Wa U.S.A
Sounds like they got lucky.Thank god the sledder was on it.Good luck,
SZ

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#757051 - 05/01/12 05:39 PM Re: Boat Down on Cowlitz [Re: ColeyG]
Direct-Drive Offline
ExtenZe Field Tester

Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 8060
Loc: Vancouver, WA
Originally Posted By: ColeyG

So, how do you mitigate? One, don’t overload the boat. Two pay attention to weight and balance issues. Be very cautious about dropping the rock in heavy flows where there is the potential for the anchor to stick before an appropriate amount of anchor line is out. I anchor in heavy water all of the time and have never had an issue, due in large part to paying attention to what has been described above. Additionally, rather than drop the rock immediately to the bottom at full speed, I will often grab a few hard oar strokes to slow my forward speed, slowly lower the anchor to the bottom, and then pay out line slowly until an effective scope/angle has been achieved, sometimes dragging the anchor on the bottom gradually and/or gradually transferring load to the anchor while paying out line should the rock stick immediately.

In a DB in small rivers, I like to avoid dropping the hook in heavy water.
Safety, anchor recovery and I don't want to tie up the passage or the meat of the run.

I look for easier water, that gives me access to prime water to drop hook into.
Also helps to eyeball the structure of the adjacent bank.....often the river bottom is the same. I try to avoid craggy stuff and look for freestone.
Still have my original, lead bodied Ramsey (Animal) anchor....crap, I hope I didn't just put the jinx on blush

I've seen 18" round bumpers completely submerged while anchoring power boats below Bonneville at the old deadline.
Bare minimum 350' anchor rope and big tined, break away anchors. Some carry 600'.
Rooster tail trying to form off the stern once you get a hold....might take a few tries.
Different class of anchoring, but the basic principles remain the same.
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#757432 - 05/02/12 09:06 PM Re: Boat Down on Cowlitz [Re: ]
Eric Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 3513
Originally Posted By: 2MANY
Drift boats should be outlawed.




Yop! moose


Edited by Eric (05/02/12 09:07 PM)

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#757536 - 05/03/12 01:23 PM Re: Boat Down on Cowlitz [Re: Eric]
fishnbear Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 11/30/99
Posts: 341
Loc: A coastal river with fish
Sound to me like they didnt have the boat set up right to run 4 guys out of, maybe they should have moved the front seat forward, and the rower seat forward to lift the back end up. Plus theres alot of snags, stumps ect in the area there trying to anchor in, cuz in my early years of rowing I have lost an anchor in that same area. Not sure if I would have anchored in that area, with the flows over 8k, I also like having over 60ft of anchor rope. so I can change the pitch/ angle when anchored. I remember one thing Bob told me when in heavy water try and find some soft water before anchoring, so you dont suck the back down. Driftboats outlawed? why cant you row!!!!!!
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#757546 - 05/03/12 01:49 PM Re: Boat Down on Cowlitz [Re: ]
steeliedrew Offline
SRC Poser

Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 2143
Loc: Snohomish
Originally Posted By: 2MANY
People don't kill people.................Drift boats kill people.


not all of us have the luxury of owning a big fancy fish rite sled. wink I kid, I kid. Haha.
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#757547 - 05/03/12 01:52 PM Re: Boat Down on Cowlitz [Re: ]
Direct-Drive Offline
ExtenZe Field Tester

Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 8060
Loc: Vancouver, WA
Originally Posted By: 2MANY
People don't kill people.................Drift boats kill people.

Well, that's one way for a bank maggot to troll.

This doesn't count as a bite.





grin
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#757580 - 05/03/12 05:38 PM Re: Boat Down on Cowlitz [Re: ]
Mooch Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 12/24/01
Posts: 1972
Loc: Kingston, WA
Originally Posted By: 2MANY
Drift boats should be outlawed.


Then there would be lotz more room for sledz on the Cowlitz.
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#757639 - 05/04/12 04:30 AM Re: Boat Down on Cowlitz [Re: Mooch]
bhudda Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 04/06/11
Posts: 224
Loc: S River central
foot releases should be outlawed:) at least around me! i got a leelock on my boat and my friend has the foot release. i made a bad mistake while rowing his boat coming into a dogleg turn i shifted my feet while digging, foot slipped, hit the release, going thru the tailout w/only a lil rope out, it grabs,gives,grabs then , yanked the line tight, boat starts to sway, i do a 180* stroke against the sway and anchor gives, we get thru and my friend up front had some memorable things to say for his " loss of beer".....and whiplash:)
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#757640 - 05/04/12 08:01 AM Re: Boat Down on Cowlitz [Re: ]
DrifterWA Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 04/25/00
Posts: 5077
Loc: East of Aberdeen, West of Mont...
Originally Posted By: 2MANY
Drift boats are great..............if you have a shuttle and can fish during the week.
Unfortunatly mine sits in the barn 362 days a year.


Maybe I should buy it?????? Then it could sit on my property 365 days a year........ lol
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"I thought growing older, would take longer"

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#757676 - 05/04/12 01:13 PM Re: Boat Down on Cowlitz [Re: Driftfishnw]
gooybob Offline
Spawner

Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 993
Loc: Tacoma
People have to realize that a boat can go under even if the flow isn't way up. I think all of us that own boats at some point have either had a close call, have seen a close call or have seen what happened on the Cowlitz. I wear an inflatable vest even though I can swim well but I realize that even if you are good swimmer cold water shock can turn into a stroke or heart attack. The life vest can keep you floating above water but it won’t matter if you’re dead.

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#757678 - 05/04/12 01:23 PM Re: Boat Down on Cowlitz [Re: bhudda]
Direct-Drive Offline
ExtenZe Field Tester

Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 8060
Loc: Vancouver, WA
Originally Posted By: bhudda
foot releases should be outlawed:) at least around me! i got a leelock on my boat and my friend has the foot release. i made a bad mistake while rowing his boat coming into a dogleg turn i shifted my feet while digging, foot slipped, hit the release, going thru the tailout w/only a lil rope out, it grabs,gives,grabs then , yanked the line tight, boat starts to sway, i do a 180* stroke against the sway and anchor gives, we get thru and my friend up front had some memorable things to say for his " loss of beer".....and whiplash:)

A friend has one, not a fan for numerous reasons.
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#757739 - 05/04/12 08:38 PM Re: Boat Down on Cowlitz [Re: Direct-Drive]
gregsalmon Offline
Spawner

Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 534
Loc: alaska and washington
Dont learn to swim, it just prolongs the dyin

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