Salman,

You can be part of the solution by disconnecting yourself from the energy grid. Stop using any electricity, altho we will miss your posts on PP, get rid of your car and or truck so you don't use any gas or oil, and if you have a natural gas furnace, please disconnect that too. Energy is sold only because society demands it. Stop demanding it, and the dams and every other energy production facility and their negative environmental impacts go away.

BTW, what will the effects on fish be from the Sunset Falls hydro dam?

Sg

Society demands energy, nobody said it needs to come from a river although every uninformed person in Washington doesn't know the difference or care or will ever care. I don't want to know what the negative impacts would be to the fish. How will the dam help the fish?

Salman,

The dam won't help the fish. I already pointed that out. And the negative impacts to fish are estimated as negligible, which is in stark contrast to the many dams that have devastating fisheries impacts. My point is about choosing one's battles, and I choose to expend my energy opposing those projects that have significant impacts and that would be difficult or impossible to mitigate.

Energy doesn't have to come from rivers, but hydro is renewable, cleaner, and more cost effective than natural gas, oil, and nuclear. And while not cleaner than solar and wind, hydro is more reliable and cost effective. Leaving hydro out of one's energy portfolio is a deliberate choice to increase pollution of the environment.

The logical alternative would be to reduce one's energy consumption. However, that is exactly the point that makes this subject relevant to fishermen. Fishermen are notoriously heavy energy users. As a group we travel long distances, and usually in fuel guzzling vehicles to tow our boats that also burn excessive fuel, or to enhance our manly self images. You can't have it both ways. Fish need healthy rivers in order to be abundant, but fishermen consume massive amounts of energy in order to pursue them. I guess this makes fishermen unavoidably hypocrites, so it becomes a matter of how far down that path one goes.

And while the Sunset Falls dam won't directly help fish, as has been pointed out, the PUD would upgrade, and I think also assume operational costs, of the fish passage facility that is well beyond its useful economic life. At a time when WDFW needs to make tough budgetary choices, abandoning the uneconomical Sunset Falls fishway is a realistic option. It's difficult to ignore a relatively benign hydro project that could pre-empt making that tough choice about the obsolete fishway.

As I said in my initial post, the best reason for opposing the project is the NIMBY position. The project definitely will not enhance the aesthetic value of Sunset Falls. Might as well be clear and straight about the reasons for opposing the project.

Sg

What is this dam going to do? I mean how much power is it going to support and save people money, I really doubt it is as effective as they think it is. I'll never give in. A guess woud be some developer wants to put in a big development up there and did some talking to whoever in order to get cheaper electricity than if it were to come from the next closer power station. This would be at least the second new dam on the Snohomish system within the last few years.

Salman,

Why guess when you can easily verify? The Snohomish PUD commissioners decided a while back to develop renewable energy resources within Snohomish County. Snohomish PUD owns very little in the way of energy generating resources (Jackson on the Sultan, Woods Ck, and Youngs Ck). They buy most of their power from BPA, the mid-Columbia PUDs, and other public and private energy producers.

The project is tentatively designed (won't know for sure until they study it more) at about 25 MW, which by rule of thumb provides power to about 25,000 people. In reality, most hydro projects average generation is about one-half of the total capacity because they don't run at full generation all the time because river flows vary through the seasons. The way it saves money is through ownership and having greater certainty over future energy costs. It won't cause current energy prices to go down. I'm not sure what you mean by how effective it will be. I cfs of water falling 14' = 1 kwh of electricity. That's determined by the laws of physics; kind of hard to change that.

Any developer anywhere in Snohomish Co. will have to buy his electricity from Sno PUD. They are the only supplier in the county unless the developer goes off the grid and generates his own power. So the power will cost the same if it is supplied by Sno PUD, regardless of whether it is generated by the Sultan R. project, Youngs Ck, Sunset Falls, or one of the Columbia River dams. The PUD has a set pricing structure, and your rate is determined by what category of customer you are.

I don't care if you give in or not, but if you want to effectively oppose the project you'll need to know what you're talking about and articulate a persuasive argument against the project. Good luck.

Sg

Sounds like a way for PUD to put the money right in their pocket to me. No effect at all on the consumer other than the local PUD gets to sell them electricity that they generated in order to not have to be the middleman to BPA.

Salman,

Remember the part in my last post where I said you need to know what you're talking about? PUD stands for "Public Utility District." As a public entity there is zero profit. The PUD sells electricity to cover the costs of producing and obtaining it and selling it to its customers in Snohomish Co. The "pocket" you refer to is the citizenry of Snohomish Co. who buy electricity from the PUD. By by-passing BPA or any other middleman, more money stays in the pockets of the county citizen customers. Looks like you have a lot to learn about how this stuff works.

Sg

It won't cause current energy prices to go down.
By by-passing BPA or any other middleman, more money stays in the pockets of the county citizen customers.

Based on your responses one could believe just about anything.

Sg, I think you explained this as clearly as anyone ever could. If anyone still doesn't understand your words, then I'd surmise they are letting bias cloud their understanding.

Yes, thank you SG for your input, I'm still a no go for no dammo on the SkytuckyO!

The fish issue is one small part of a many pronged approach to resist the dam.

I hear all this outrage on this subject and your preaching to the choir.......ah men.

Now how about preaching to the three Snohomish County Public Utility Commissioners and give them your opinion of this bright idea at the three email addresses below.
Take off the gloves and hit them with your best shot!


emailkathyvaughn@snopud.com

emailtanyaolson@snopud.com

emaildavidaldrich@snopud.com

As a postcard picture, and from a purely natural perspective, its just "some rusty old steel" vs "newer concrete" with the later looking somewhat falls-like as depicted.

Both leave a bit to be desired from that POV, but one option supposedly will provide some cleaner energy back to the ever growing power grid, and some needed $$ for our fish traps with very low impact to our fish?

Something to think about for sure...

Those shots are actually from above the falls, which start just downstream of the very foreground of the picture, so if you are looking at the falls from below (the only easily accessible view of them), they're going to look just the same, only with the dam up above it where the RR bridge is now.

Fish on...

Todd

And i'm pretty sure the dam won't be that tall, either.

Then, again, we are told to trust the Feds to require all the state of the art fish passage required. Kinda like is required it at all dams like Cowlitz, CR, etc.

Done

Done,
Hope my vote helps NO MORE DAMS

Posted today on komo 4...


http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Organ...y&smobile=y

What a goof that guy was who was saying "what people don't realize is this is not the next Grand Coulee Dam". What he doesn't realize is that the people who are against this dam know how big it is and don't want one regardless of how big or small it is, plain and simple.

done again i guess??