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#1060684 - 10/20/22 11:41 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET *** [Re: eyeFISH]
seabeckraised Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 05/12/21
Posts: 183
Loc: Mason County
Also, not using an abundance of caution is what got us into the position we’re in with many fisheries. As I stated last Spring while they were season setting (paraphrasing), the more fish on the gravel, the better. To be clear, I disagree with the open season on the Lower Chehalis right now. If the department’s priority was Chinook hitting the gravel, they’d start with offshore mixed-stock fisheries, and not try to fix the problem in reverse order.

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#1060685 - 10/20/22 12:07 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: seabeckraised]
jgreen Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 04/18/12
Posts: 310
Loc: Elma, WA
Fine man. Great attitude. That kind of attitude is the problem.

Meanwhile WFC and other anti fishing groups are sitting around at a camp on vashon with WDFW staff and legislators eating vegan food and singing Kumbaya around the campfire. Making changes and closed door discussions.

Good for them. They are unified. We are not. Sucks for us.

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#1060686 - 10/20/22 12:13 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
seabeckraised Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 05/12/21
Posts: 183
Loc: Mason County
Not sure what attitude it is you’re referencing.. this side conversation is getting into the weeds. You’re welcome to PM me so we’re not bogging down this thread. In the meantime, I‘ll be optimistic we’ll get an opportunity to fish for Coho sometime in the next couple weeks. Hopefully sooner than later. Raining at work here in Bremerton.

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#1060687 - 10/20/22 12:15 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: seabeckraised]
jgreen Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 04/18/12
Posts: 310
Loc: Elma, WA
Sportsman aren’t the problem. Keep drinking that kool-Aid and living in that delusion. We don’t even crack the top ten for reasons fishing sucks.

1. Over harvest in the ocean
2. Birds eating smolt
3. Predators eating adults
4. In river commercial fisheries (tribal and state)
5. Fish passage being blocked (dams and other blockages)
6. Bycatch from domestic and foreign trawlers.
7. Logging
8. Commercial and residential development
9. Poor waste water management
10. Unfavorable ocean conditions


And probably a few others before you get to sportsman.

We could take care of the majority of those problems with a little effort and money…but shutting down in river recreational anglers is the laziest and cheapest “solution”.

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#1060688 - 10/20/22 12:39 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: seabeckraised]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4175
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
Guys the closure was about Chinook spawning low due to flows and release mortalities. All that said it was centered the optics of combat fishing with bankies and boats working the holding areas.

Now let us get this conservation thing correct. This year it was estimated Grays Harbor Chinook harvest is AK 11,617 BC 4637 for 16,250 taken and the Grays harbor Chinook escapement goal is 13,326. This left a total Chehalis terminal runsize of 14,957 with QIN taking 3,566 Chehalis tribal 257 and Rec bay and inriver 567 with C&R. Always remember only WDFW separate Humptulips and the Chehalis for all other entities it is all combined Grays Harbor.

Conservation is always a real thing with the vast majority of Rec fishers but some not so much. Things could have been done differently but WDFW chose to do it this way. All that said there are no conservations concerns for GH Chinook when one grasps that the ocean managers fed and state allowed over half of the run to be harvested in the ocean.

For years I have been told by staff that oh they cannot do anything about the ocean fisheries. What happens year after year is the terminal fishers fish on what remains of the Chinook run after being butchered by AK & BC. I do not recall a WDFW staffer or Director or the Commission or the Governor or state legislators or our federal Senators or Representatives in congress speak out in an effort to stop this. What I hear is habitat habitat which by definition of results would mean more ocean harvest with the SAME terminal runs.

So what you end up with is the inriver with the least impacts is expected to take the brunt of conservation as viewed by Region 6. Now if your fine with that it is OK as everyone is entitled to their own views. For myself not so much and as far as I am concerned it is money and political power enabling this harvest that is concealed by the words conservation and habitat. Boiled down this is pure 100% grade A BS and hypocrisy. Conservation my ass!
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#1060689 - 10/20/22 12:39 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
seabeckraised Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 05/12/21
Posts: 183
Loc: Mason County
Green-
Where did I say sportsmen are the main problem? I agree those issues you listed have a greater impact than we do fishing the tribs. But at some point we do have to acknowledge there is blood on our hands, figuratively and literally. Yes, actions should be taken to address those other issues, but unfortunately at THIS point, the only options the department has is to limit us and the netting. I wish they weren’t netting or fishing the lower river as well. Just sends a mixed message.


Edited by seabeckraised (10/20/22 12:40 PM)

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#1060690 - 10/20/22 01:02 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: jgreen]
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1281
Originally Posted By: jgreen


I’m starting to think most of the people working for the department spent most of their younger life in a classroom learning about fisheries rather than spending time on the river. A bunch of overpaid paper pushers have less idea what is going on in the river than the average fisherman. That’s just sad. Likely had some of their student loans paid off by most of you (well, $10,000 of it) just be piss poor at their “job”.


Most definitely! It's been that way ever since the WDG and WDF merged in 1994. Everything has gone down hill since. A large group of WDG guys fished and hunted and therefor had a vested interest in it. Most either retired or left after the merger. Today far less are directly involved and sorry to say, what we have is what you get. By the way. Thanks for the meeting reminder for tonight.


Edited by RUNnGUN (10/20/22 01:03 PM)
_________________________
“Smart people only believe half of what they hear. Smarter people know which half to believe”

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#1060691 - 10/20/22 01:07 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Carcassman]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3253
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
GH Chinook are not ESA-listed. While some would say that QIN and WDFW are working hard at getting them listed, they aren't. Yet.


Oops. Must have had my Puget Sound hat on there.

SO: Not ESA listed, but nonetheless, the stock that limits our fisheries on the Chehalis side. Does that sound more correct?

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#1060692 - 10/20/22 01:32 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: FleaFlickr02]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4175
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
Yes /No A bit back we failed to make Chehalis escapement 3 out of 5 years so the GHMP limited NT (all) impacts to 5% of the runsize terminal. Now the reason was more AK and BC harvest than terminal QIN or NT.

This year it was simply that after the ocean harvest the NT terminal share of harvestable Chinook was not enough to allow harvest. In other words we would blow escapement if we retained Chinook and take us off the water for Coho. The Rec fisher bay and fresh water is capable of taking a rather substantial number of Chinook if allowed to do so, really fast!

Just for conversation say the AK BC harvest had been reduced 20% that would put 3250 more Chinook across the bar. Right there you have a season.




Little edit: The numbers do not include draggers and other things by catch which is also substantial. Cheap fish and chips / fish burgers are not so cheap.


Edited by Rivrguy (10/20/22 01:42 PM)
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#1060694 - 10/20/22 01:51 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: jgreen]
Get Bent Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 05/13/03
Posts: 231
Loc: Vashon/Grayland
Hey now, I live on Vashon/Grayland and most of my buddies eat venison.

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#1060695 - 10/20/22 01:51 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Rivrguy]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3253
Originally Posted By: Rivrguy
Yes /No A bit back we failed to make Chehalis escapement 3 out of 5 years so the GHMP limited NT (all) impacts to 5% of the runsize terminal. Now the reason was more AK and BC harvest than terminal QIN or NT.

This year it was simply that after the ocean harvest the NT terminal share of harvestable Chinook was not enough to allow harvest. In other words we would blow escapement if we retained Chinook and take us off the water for Coho. The Rec fisher bay and fresh water is capable of taking a rather substantial number of Chinook if allowed to do so, really fast!

Just for conversation say the AK BC harvest had been reduced 20% that would put 3250 more Chinook across the bar. Right there you have a season.




Little edit: The numbers do not include draggers and other things by catch which is also substantial. Cheap fish and chips / fish burgers are not so cheap.


That's right. The dreaded "Penalty Box." Been a while.

No doubt, the ocean is where the action is on kings. I have no problem with that, as long as they don't harvest into escapement then kick me off the river. That's especially cruel....

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#1060697 - 10/20/22 03:11 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Get Bent]
jgreen Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 04/18/12
Posts: 310
Loc: Elma, WA
Oh no, I wasn’t referring to the people of vashon. I was referring to the group meeting there for the camp.

Seabeck:

I’m sure we probably agree on most of the issues. I will die on the hill that in river sports anglers don’t have the blood on their hands. Yes we kill fish. Some of those fish (1%-3%) hooked, die. I could, and have been able to, fish every day; and not make the impact of one day of a net in the river.

Most fisherman suck. It’s only the guides and some rec fisherman that can catch fish in any numbers. That’s not saying I’m better than anyone else, or any of us are…but A LOT of people we see on the rivers are pretty novice and not hooking a lot fish.

I’ve talked to bios and WDFW employees that will tell you that if you see XXX amount of anglers, they can determine the amount of fish hooked. That’s patently untrue.

We aren’t the problem. Like riverguy said…it’s the Alaska, BC and commercial Washington fleet killing the vast, vast majority of chehalis bound chinook…and it’s not even close. Telling the recreational bank anglers to stop fishing is like treating a scratch on the leg on a gun shot victim shot in the head…it’s pointless.

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#1060698 - 10/20/22 03:18 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7012
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Regardless of how many fish one kills, that fish won't spawn. If, as is normally the case, the harvestable surplus is taken certainly outside the tributaries if not outside the river then those dead fish eat into the escapement goal. It's a numbers game.

Certainly nets can and generally do take more fish in a day than any one angler does. Look how fast the Lake WA sockeye anglers take fish out whenever there is a fishery. A fishery that was historically inefficient enough to last months now (when open) lasts days.

Volume-wise, the problem for WA Chinook is AK and BC; no argument there. But WA anglers can and do remove enough fish to impact escapement. Dead fish don't spawn.

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#1060700 - 10/20/22 03:49 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: seabeckraised]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3253
Originally Posted By: seabeckraised
FF,
Posting those numbers was more to show that fish are moving, I probably should have specified this. That, along with Mr. Scharpf’s comments lead me to believe at some point *hopefully soon*, the Department will be satisfied by river conditions allowing fish (Chinook) passage, and a re-opening of the tribs. This might even require crafting rules such as a bait ban which I would be all for, or getting creative in other ways to mitigate impacts on Chinook.

All I’m saying is I DO have a little faith that the department will find a way to provide tributary opportunity for Coho prior to Demeber 1st. I may be naive in this, and will gladly swallow my words if incorrect, as anyone should.


Man, do I hope you're right, but it's going to take more than water to make enough kings magically appear to meet escapement, and I think that's the only way this thing can be opened. It's far from unprecedented that we seem to have overharvested kings, but this is the first time the tribs have been outright closed to protect them that I can recall.....

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#1060703 - 10/20/22 05:04 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
seabeckraised Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 05/12/21
Posts: 183
Loc: Mason County
Green-
We clearly aren’t in agreement on the impact of sportfishers. You mentioned it yourself, guides are very efficient in the taking of fish. Take an average day on the Hump… let’s say 10 guides, 3 clients each, 2 fish limit.. they don’t always limit out, but when the fish are in, let’s say 1.5 fish per client. That’s 45 fish kept per day JUST through guides. Figure another 45 impacted (released, lost at boat, whatever). That really adds up.

Mixed stock commercial fisheries are an absolute meat cleaver on these populations, but we as recreational fishermen and ESPECIALLY guides are absolutely part of the whole “death by 1000 cuts.”

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#1060704 - 10/20/22 05:05 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
seabeckraised Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 05/12/21
Posts: 183
Loc: Mason County
Further, I agree it’s not fair that we bear the brunt of the challenge to make escapement, but that’s where we’re at: the terminal end of the fishery.

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#1060720 - 10/21/22 10:26 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
jgreen Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 04/18/12
Posts: 310
Loc: Elma, WA
Remember the email I got back from Mike Scharpf? The one where he said they can’t/won’t use weather or flow forecasts to reopen rivers? Well, the state just opened up the dungeness and Wallace river.

Under reason for action: With forecasted rain and increasing flows predicted and most of the Chinook salmon spawning complete in the Wallace River conditions are improved for allowing fishing to resume in Wallace River.

So which is it? It’s like they think we are stupid and won’t notice.

The amount of superiority complex at work at the WDFW is staggering. They act like they don’t HAVE to answer for their decisions. They are public SERVANTS and in such are subservient to the people of Washington. If we ask for a number, give us the number..not some BS “we don’t know” or “we assume”, if that’s the case…manage to keep it open, not closed.

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#1060721 - 10/21/22 10:34 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
jgreen Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 04/18/12
Posts: 310
Loc: Elma, WA
I got a response back right after this from Mike. Essentially, no fishing until MAYBE later next week after the do more spawning surveys on Chinook. Unfortunately it’s looking like we won’t get to fish until maybe November…they probably aren’t going to find a lot redds when the river is turbid…

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#1060722 - 10/21/22 10:57 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: jgreen]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3253
Originally Posted By: jgreen
Remember the email I got back from Mike Scharpf? The one where he said they can’t/won’t use weather or flow forecasts to reopen rivers? Well, the state just opened up the dungeness and Wallace river.

Under reason for action: With forecasted rain and increasing flows predicted and most of the Chinook salmon spawning complete in the Wallace River conditions are improved for allowing fishing to resume in Wallace River.

So which is it? It’s like they think we are stupid and won’t notice.

The amount of superiority complex at work at the WDFW is staggering. They act like they don’t HAVE to answer for their decisions. They are public SERVANTS and in such are subservient to the people of Washington. If we ask for a number, give us the number..not some BS “we don’t know” or “we assume”, if that’s the case…manage to keep it open, not closed.


The key phrase in their justification is that the Chinook are thought to be done spawning. It was never about flow; it was always about Chinook, specifically numbers of spawners observed in tribs. Given that the Chinook in the Dungeness are endangered, I question the wisdom, but hey, I'm glad someone gets to fish.

I'm encouraged to hear that Scharpf left the door open for an opening; that's encouraging, but for all the reasons you mentioned (plus the fact the Chinook probably won't be there in sufficient numbers when they DO get a chance to do a survey), I have serious doubts. But hey, more positive than I felt yesterday....

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#1060723 - 10/21/22 11:01 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: jgreen]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4175
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
The NT Commercial numbers are up for the last two day set Chinook Actual 1 Modeled 68 Coho Actual 282 Modeled 1710 Chum Actual 337 Modeled 1462. Keep in mind that many of the fish modeled are already up.

Fishing this morning water temp 57.6 and clear, like really clear! Not much as to numbers of fish showing. It was slow enough that I can say I lost a jumper as an highlight! Oh almost forgot, the lock jaw bit is still on as a couple followed the spinner to he boat.

So how is fishing ? The word ugly comes to mind.


Edited by Rivrguy (10/21/22 12:07 PM)
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