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#925062 - 03/14/15 07:04 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET *** [Re: Rivrguy]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4147
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
I recently sent this bit to my contact list as Region 6 is seeking feedback ( feedback now guys not blowback) on the following season changes. I cannot get the spread sheet in this but if one would want it fire a PM at me. So here they are the WDF&W staff suggestions on season modifications.

1. Skookumchuck River, delay opening until Oct 16
2. Chehalis River, upstream of Adna, Delay fall opening until Oct. 16
3. Wynoochee River, delay opening until October 1 and extend until (Dec) January 31
4. Newaukum River, delay opening until Oct 16

Number 3 is to protect Wynoochee Fall Chinook but to do so restricts the season for those who fish Coho on the Wynoochee. I requested the Wynoochee Dam trap reports and we still have harvestable fish in January. The Hump, Wishkah, Satsop, and Chehalis close January 31 so my input on that one is OK to the later opening but extend the season to January 31 as in the rest of the streams. What do you think?

Now here is where I really need help. 1,2,& 4 are restrictions to help Spring Chinook in the Chehalis. I am attaching the 2015 Spring Chinook forecast model ( no they do not put the information in the old presentation chart anymore) and hit the tab labeled escapement. Several years of Spring Chinook Escapement by stream are in the sheet so take a look.

The questions to me are :
A. Does this really do something to help Spring Chinook or is this "smoke & mirrors "
B. Does this put a undue burden on the upper basin inriver fisher? October 15th can be rather late some years but this is for the three tribs not the mainstem.

Yes I am very much aware that Region 6 has harvested the heck out of things in the past and then dumped conservation on the inriver fisher. That said I think this is a sincere request. Now I said I think it is a sincere request but more important is what do you guys think. So upper basin guys what do we have here?



Edited by Rivrguy (03/14/15 07:06 AM)
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#925064 - 03/14/15 08:45 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
steely slammer Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 02/24/00
Posts: 1489
whats the starting date for Hump, Wishkah Chehalis satsop ???
_________________________
Where Destroying Fishing in Washington..

mainly region 6

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#925066 - 03/14/15 08:57 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: steely slammer]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4147
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
http://wdfw.wa.gov/fishing/regulations/
Link is to the pamphlet. They sorta move around with the Dec fishery a separate line. So take a peek.
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#925161 - 03/16/15 03:12 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Rivrguy]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4147
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope



Reminder on the GH Adviser Meeting for the 2015 North of Falcon. As always the public comment / participation is the last hour of the meeting.





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Steven L Thiesfeld (DFW)" <Steven.Thiesfeld@dfw.wa.gov>
Sent: Monday, March 16, 2015 2:04:26 PM
Subject: Reminder: Grays Harbor Salmon Advisor Meeting tomorrow night



Hi Everyone,



Just a reminder that we will have a Grays Harbor Advisor Meeting tomorrow night. As has been our recent practice, we will reserve time beginning at 8:00 for any public comment or questions.



Cheers.



March 17

Grays Harbor Advisory Group Meeting

6 p.m.-9 p.m., Montesano Public Library, 125 Main St. S, Montesano


Steve Thiesfeld

Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife

Region 6 Fish Program Manager

48 Devonshire Road, Montesano, WA 98563

Steven.Thiesfeld@dfw.wa.gov

360-249-1201







http://www.wdfw.wa.gov/fishing/washington/
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#925336 - 03/19/15 11:16 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Rivrguy]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4147
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope

Back to Willapa and here is the draft for the 2015 INTERIM harvest policy. The agency is seeking comment and everyone should take a look and what they like and do not. I have several issues with it but that is for another day so thoughts all?

Washington Fish and Wildlife Commission
2015 Willapa Bay Salmon Management Interim Guidance
March 13, 2015 Draft

The Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (Department) shall use the following guidance for managing salmon fisheries in Willapa Bay and tributary rivers in 2015.

Fall Chinook Salmon:

The Department shall initiate a rebuilding program to conserve and restore wild Chinook salmon in Willapa Bay. For 2015, limit harvest rates on Naselle and Willapa River natural-origin Chinook salmon to no more than 20% to initiate rebuilding the number of natural-origin spawners. Within the conservation constraints of the rebuilding program, fisheries will be managed within the following intent:

• Chinook salmon will be managed to provide for a full recreational fishing season with increased participation and/or catch.

• For all fisheries through September 30, close the area north of a line from Toke Point channel marker 3 easterly through Willapa Harbor channel marker 13 (green) then, northeasterly to the power transmission pole located at 46 degrees 43.19'N, 123 degrees 50.83'W.

• Commercial fisheries prior to August 8 shall be limited to one 48 consecutive- hour period. No commercial fisheries shall occur from August 8 through Labor Day. Commercial fisheries in areas 2T and 2U after Labor Day but before Sept. 16 shall use mark-selective fishing gear (6.5” maximum mesh or 4.5” maximum mesh tangle net) and recovery boxes.

• If it becomes apparent that scheduled commercial fisheries will exceed the aggregated pre-season natural-origin Chinook mortality expectation, the Department shall implement in-season management actions so that mortalities of natural-origin Chinook shall not exceed the aggregated pre-season projection.


Coho Salmon:

Fisheries will be managed with the intent of achieving the aggregate spawner goal for Willapa Bay natural-origin Coho salmon. Within the conservation constraints of meeting the aggregate escapement goal, fisheries will be managed within the following intent:

• Prioritize commercial fishing opportunities during the Coho fishery management period (September 16 through October 14 and after October 31); and

• Provide recreational fishing opportunities.




Chum Salmon:

Fisheries will be managed with the intent of achieving the aggregate spawner goal for Willapa Bay natural-origin Chum salmon. Within the conservation constraints of meeting the aggregate escapement goal, fisheries will be managed within the following intent:

• The maximum fishery impact shall not exceed a 10% harvest rate.

• No commercial fisheries will occur in the period from October 15-31.

• Provide recreational fishing opportunities. Recreational fisheries will be allowed to retain Chum salmon if retention is not prohibited in the commercial fishery.


Adaptive Management:

The Commission recognizes that adaptive management will be essential to achieve the intent of this interim guidance. Department staff may implement actions to manage adaptively and will coordinate with the Commission, as needed, in order to implement corrective actions.
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#925455 - 03/20/15 11:01 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Rivrguy]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4147
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope


Here are my thoughts at the moment on the Willapa interim 2015 harvest policy. I have put my thoughts in red so all can take a look at just to get a feel for what one can see as weaknesses in the WDF&W draft. That said the draft produced by staff is well above past efforts but still falls short for Rec opportunity and the needs future challenges will present.



Washington Fish and Wildlife Commission
2015 Willapa Bay Salmon Management Interim Guidance
March 13, 2015 Draft

The Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (Department) shall use the following guidance for managing salmon fisheries in Willapa Bay and tributary rivers in 2015.

Fall Chinook Salmon:

The Department shall initiate a rebuilding program to conserve and restore wild Chinook salmon in Willapa Bay. For 2015, limit harvest rates on Naselle and Willapa River natural-origin Chinook salmon to no more than 20% to initiate rebuilding the number of natural-origin spawners. Within the conservation constraints of the rebuilding program, fisheries will be managed within the following intent:

In the AHA model runs it was a 14% harvest rate to graph upwards to recovery and limiting it to 20% on the Naselle can lead to serious issues on the Willapa for overharvest. Add to the mix that Forks Cr Chinook ( Willapa River ) production must be reduced to meet HSRG requirements for hatchery reform. Simply put in the transition cycle for Chinook ( the first four years ) to HSRG standards if we do not control natural spawner impacts to escapement with commercial over harvest it will be the Rec fisher in 2T & U who pays the price. In particular after the first four cycle and the Chinook hatchery production is reduced leaving the mix of hatchery / wild drastically reduced.


• Chinook salmon will be managed to provide for a full recreational fishing season with increased participation and/or catch.

A liberal bag limit needs to be clearly defined for both marine & freshwater Rec fishers. The old WDF&W standard that Recs cannot catch enough fish is driven by the heavy commercial harvest and restricted Rec opportunity. That must end and the Rec fishers release mortality is well below the commercial rate so they can harvest a much expanded number with much less impact on the limiting natural origin Chinook.

• For all fisheries through September 30, close the area north of a line from Toke Point channel marker 3 easterly through Willapa Harbor channel marker 13 (green) then, northeasterly to the power transmission pole located at 46 degrees 43.19'N, 123 degrees 50.83'W.

This is the North River exclusion zone and remains in place.

• Commercial fisheries prior to August 8 shall be limited to one 48 consecutive- hour period. No commercial fisheries shall occur from August 8 through Labor Day. Commercial fisheries in areas 2T and 2U after Labor Day but before Sept. 16 shall use mark-selective fishing gear (6.5” maximum mesh or 4.5” maximum mesh tangle net) and recovery boxes.

The commercials need to be out of 2T & U until September 16th, period. There is no need to continue to destroy the Rec 2T & U fisheries as has been done for the last four years.

• If it becomes apparent that scheduled commercial fisheries will exceed the aggregated pre-season natural-origin Chinook mortality expectation, the Department shall implement in-season management actions so that mortalities of natural-origin Chinook shall not exceed the aggregated pre-season projection.


Coho Salmon:

Fisheries will be managed with the intent of achieving the aggregate spawner goal for Willapa Bay natural-origin Coho salmon. Within the conservation constraints of meeting the aggregate escapement goal, fisheries will be managed within the following intent:

• Prioritize commercial fishing opportunities during the Coho fishery management period (September 16 through October 14 and after October 31); and

• Provide recreational fishing opportunities.
Chum Salmon:

Fisheries will be managed with the intent of achieving the aggregate spawner goal for Willapa Bay natural-origin Chum salmon. Within the conservation constraints of meeting the aggregate escapement goal, fisheries will be managed within the following intent:

• The maximum fishery impact shall not exceed a 10% harvest rate.

• No commercial fisheries will occur in the period from October 15-31.

• Provide recreational fishing opportunities. Recreational fisheries will be allowed to retain Chum salmon if retention is not prohibited in the commercial fishery.

Recreational opportunities should be allowed within the 10% if commecial impacts are allowed be it a directed harvest or incidental catch.

Adaptive Management:

The Commission recognizes that adaptive management will be essential to achieve the intent of this interim guidance. Department staff may implement actions to manage adaptively and will coordinate with the Commission, as needed, in order to implement corrective actions.
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#925646 - 03/23/15 04:20 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Rivrguy]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4147
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope



What we have here are the comments on the on both the Interim and permanent Willapa Policy from a meeting of participants of the Willapa Policy Process sponsored by the Advocacy.
WILLAPA PLAN http://wdfw.wa.gov/conservation/fisheries/willapa_bay_salmon/

From the meeting came agreement from those participating on most issues but not all which is noted. Take a look and draw your own conclusions but all should keep this in mind. To come to a compromise view takes just that, compromise. In some instances the document does not reflect my personal views but I support it. Why? Because it is a compromise. The meeting was an attempt to bring wildly differing views to a place that if not all most could support. In the world of fish in Grays Harbor & Willapa it has been in most cases "my way or the highway". The Advocacy is trying to chart a new way of doing things where issues are vetted and solutions found.

So take a look and if you have questions just e mail me as always. I was not able to get a perfect cut & paste here but is about as good as I could get it.


Twin Harbors Fish & Wildlife Advocacy

Meeting Minutes, March 18, 2015
Place: Timberland Public Library Community Room (Elma) Time: 3PM - 7 PM

Invitees:

XXXXXXXX

Meeting Purpose: Discussion of latest WB draft permanent policy and the draft interim policy for the 2015 season to determine where those invited could develop and agree or not agree on recommended changes for transmission to WDFW.

Actions Taken: Recommended changes to the draft permanent policy and the draft interim policy were adopted. All recommendations were adopted unanimously and the exception of 2 where two attendees voiced reservations.

Methodology: The Advocacy developed a meeting presentation that acted as an agenda. Region 6 Manager Steve Theisfeld provided copies of the interim policy that was being released and made a 45 minute presentation and took questions on the two drafts prior to the group going into closed session. Participants expressed appreciation for his attendance and efforts to find solutions to the problems in WB. During the closed session, participants in the meeting shared concerns over the current drafts of the permanent and interim policy drafts currently presented to the public in the workshops and ad hoc meetings. Different solutions to those concerns were presented orally and noted on the white board in a general description. Robust discussions occurred and all present stated their approval or disapproval of each solution placed on the board. The compromise solutions approved during the meeting are paraphrased (by Tim Hamilton) as “recommendations” in these minutes and identified below (not in chronological order). While all invitees have been provided a copy of these minutes, the minutes presented herein have not been formally approved by those present at the meeting.



Current draft WB permanent policy:

Recapping and highlighting some of the commentary:

• All of the AHA modeling conducted during the ad hoc process showed the different alternatives would require a reduction in the maximum harvest rate to 14% to reach long range recover goals in 16-21 yrs. The draft under all 3 Chinook Alternatives calls for a 20% harvest rate in the first phase which could delay the beginning of the recovery process up to 5 or more years. Further, the higher than modeled harvest rate proposed by the Dept. could continue the decline in NOR return run size to the point natural spawning recovery is delayed for decades and even limit future hatchery production (lack of NORs available for blending into hatchery broodstocks). While a 20% short term harvest would allow a greater harvest of returns from the higher past releases from hatcheries, the corresponding effect on NORs could create extremely difficult obstacles for the long term. The likelihood conservation goals could be reached would improve if harvest in the short term was reduced (10% suggested) to reverse the decline in NOR spawners and then raise it in the future to the 14% modeled using AHA.

• The Department historically has not effectively used inseason monitoring and adjustments to keep actual harvest from exceeding the preseason expectation. In 2014, the harvest rate was reduced from 30% to 20% yet the actual harvest came in at 37.5%. Fishing above preseason expectation simply must stop in order for any management plan to have a chance to be successful in reaching escapement goals and recovery of natural spawning Chinook in WB.

• Of the three Chinook alternatives, only Alternative C includes a harvest rate on both the Willapa and Naselle and sets guidelines for a commercial season that AHA modeling shows a potential to achieve recovery goals within a 16-21 year period, provided the harvest rate of 14% is not exceeded. Insuring an adequate NOR escapement in the Naselle is a key to increasing hatchery production that is shifted from the Willapa to the Naselle. Additionally, Alternative A and especially Alternative B, show little if any potential to ever reach the restoration goals over the next 2 decades.

• Down to 604 in 2013, the dramatic decline in escapement of Chinook in the Naselle from 2010 raises the question to whether or not the Dept will actually have enough NORs for blending into hatchery broodstocks to enable it to maintain current production levels let alone increase them to the goals under the “stepping stone” process set forth under Alternatives A & B. (Chart below was created from data in “WB Fram 3 Option K with Parenthesis in Coho, Chum value, fix NatChin-2.xlsx”).

The reduction of Chinook production in Falls Creek to 350,000 releases and the shifting of Chinook production to the south under all three alternatives was disturbing to those whose priority is recreational fishing in 2T & 2U for Chinook. If caution is not taken to reduce harvest rates on NORs in the short term (years 1-4), recreational fishing could be severely limited in the north bay in the future due to the decline in NORs resulting from the harvest rates installed in the short term targeting the hatchery runs from previous production at Forks Creek that will not be there in the future.

• The Coho section of the draft designates the Naselle as a “stabilizing” stream. Since the river itself does not align with HSRG definitions for stabilizing, the motivation seems directed at the recognition the weir problems in the Naselle currently fails to stop hatchery Coho straying. Rather than use a creative interpretation to avoid the problem (calling it stabilizing stands down HSRG straying guidelines), the Department should fix the weir problems.

• The Willapa by nature’s rule was historically a “Chum bay” with very large natural spawning Chum runs that have diminished. The Department proposes to review escapement goals for Chum. The concern is the Dept.’s motivation is to lower Chum escapement goals as a means to make an “end run” around the chronic failure to reach goals in order to increase commercial seasons targeting abundant Coho. A reduction in natural spawning would have impacts on the ecological balance in the basin and potentially interfere with future egg box and hatchery programs including “Ocean Ranching” possibilities. A unilateral decision by the Dept to change escapement goals (any of three species) without public input and Commission approval would not be an appropriate process and undermine the public confidence in the Department.

• Clarification is needed regarding language in the draft related to recreational seasons and other issues.

Draft Permanent Policy Recommendations
The following recommendations for changes in the current draft of the permanent policy were adopted:

• Replace the inseason adjustment language in the current draft borrowed from the GH policy that proved ineffective in 2014 with the greatly improved language contained in the draft interim policy just published by the Department.

• Regardless of the Chinook Alternative adopted, reduce the proposed 20% harvest rate in Phase 1 (Years 1-4) from 20% to the 14% used in AHA modeling to reach goals in 16-21 years.

• Chinook Alternatives- Reject Chinook Alternatives A & B and adopt Alternative C with the following modifications (all present ex. XXXXXX):

1. Replace the hatchery production goals expressed in Alternative C with the goals expressed in Alternative A & B.

2. The recreational seasons are expressed the same in all three Alternatives and shown below in italics. The following clarifications (deletions additions)are recommended:

a. “A full marine recreational season means that Willapa Bay will be open concurrent with Area 2, two rods will be allowed per angler, a daily bag limit of six adult fish, with release of unclipped Chinook salmon.”

b. “A full freshwater recreational season means an opening on August 1, in and unless constrained by a conservation purpose, for the full reaches of the Willapa, Nemah, and Naselle rivers, two rods will be allowed per angler, a daily bag limit of four adult fish, with release of unclipped Chinook salmon.” (all present ex.XXXXXXXX)

• Coho section. Change the stream designation for the Naselle from “Stabilizing” to “Contributing to align with definitions set forth in HSRG guidelines.

• Chum section. The following change is recommended:

c. Provide recreational fishing opportunities. Recreational fisheries will be allowed to retain Chum salmon if retention is not prohibited in the commercial fishery. Recreational impacts will not exceed 10% of the incidental impacts incurring during a non-targeted commercial fisheries.

3) Fisheries will be managed with the intent of achieving the aggregate goal for Willapa Bay naturally spawning Chum salmon. Two expressed options (A&B) follow. Adoption of Option B is recommended.

• Adaptive Management- The following changes are recommended:

3) Review Spawner Goals. The Department shall review spawner goals to ensure that they reflect the current productivity of salmon and present a report with any recommended changes to existing goals to the Commission for its review and approval within the following timelines:

a. Chum: September 1, 2015
b. Coho: January 1, 2016
c. Chinook: January 1, 2020


Page 5, WB Policy Meeting Minutes 1/18/2015

Draft 2015 season Interim Policy Recommendations



The following recommendations were adopted for changes in the current draft of the 2015 season in- terim policy were adopted (expressed draft language shown in italics):

•“If it becomes apparent that scheduled commercial fisheries will exceed the aggregated pre- season natural-origin Chinook mortality expectation, the Department shall implement in-season management actions so that mortalities of natural-origin Chinook shall not exceed the aggre- gated pre-season projection.”

The improvement to inseason management language shown above is recognized by all present to be of extreme importance to prevent over fishing that undermines conservation goals. An additional support step is recommended. Add Section 7. of the draft permanent policy regarding monitoring, sampling and enforcement to insure the Dept continues to improve its ability to recognize if the season underway in 2015 is exceeding the preseason expectation.

•A harvest rate of 20% is set for the Willapa and Naselle. Having a harvest rate on both rivers is considered by many to be a key component for success in the future. The recommendation is to reduce the harvest rate in 2015 to the 14% modeled by AHA and begin the process without further delay and avoid installing a season that results in a further decline in NOR populations.

•Replace the Chinook commercial season guidelines proposed in the 2015 interim draft with the commercial season expressed under Alternative C of the draft for the permanent policy.

•Replace the recreational season guidelines proposed in the 2015 interim draft with the season details contained in the draft permanent policy as clarified by the recommendations provided earlier for the draft permanent policy.

The Advocacy thanked all for coming and the meeting adjourned at 10 P.M.
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#925788 - 03/25/15 08:15 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Rivrguy]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4147
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope

Reminder for Thursday's NOF Grays Harbor.

From: "Steven L Thiesfeld (DFW)" <Steven.Thiesfeld@dfw.wa.gov>
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2015 3:42:15 PM
Subject: Reminder: Grays Harbor North of Falcon Meeting

Hi Everyone,

Just a reminder that we are scheduled for our final North of Falcon meeting on Grays Harbor this Thursday. I hope to see you all there!

Grays Harbor Fisheries Discussion
6 p.m.-9 p.m., Montesano City Hall, 112 N Main Street, Montesano
Public discussion of Grays Harbor salmon forecasts and fishing opportunities.

Cheers

Steve Thiesfeld
Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife
Region 6 Fish Program Manager

48 Devonshire Road, Montesano, WA 98563
Steven.Thiesfeld@dfw.wa.gov

360-249-1201
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#925813 - 03/25/15 11:29 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Rivrguy]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4147
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
It is time for those who can to submit your thought to the Commission and Fish Program (Jim Scott & Steve Thiesfeld) on how the GHMP did in 2014. The Commission is going to review the GHMP shortly. My input is below and it is important that those who wish do the same with YOUR thoughts.


December 25, 2015

Commissioners,

I am writing to place in the record my final thoughts on the Grays Harbor Management Policy (GHMP) performance in 2014. I am also providing copies of my previous comments on the GHMP. In looking back the issues remain similar but also different than I identified previously.

1. Three net free days a week. (4/3)
While I understand the Commercial opposition to 4/3 in the end it not only provided a real inriver Recreational fishery but was also a major factor in preventing a huge failure in Chehalis Chinook escapement. As the Commissioners are aware we again failed to reach our Chehalis Chinook escapement goal. While the state side restrained harvest (due to 3/5 which I will address later) the Quinault Indian Nation (QIN) did not. As the finger pointing started I requested that Mr. John Campbell review and back math the 2014 Chinook harvest and identify where the harvest model failed. His response follows:

To try to answer your question I assume you mean for Chinook. I looked at the total harvest compared to the plan total which is mostly natural origin.

The actual run was smaller than the plan but it looks like it came in faster in the early weeks. Harvest was about on plan for the first two weeks, (weeks 39 and 40). Even week 41 was 72% of plan. After that it declined rapidly.

I do not think I could predict a short run until at least week 42 and by then all but the last 150 fish had been harvested. In my view I could not have said the run was small and the normal looking harvest was really going to go into escapement.

Simply put Commissioners the comanagers could not have been able to identify the harvest model failure until the damage was done. The saving grace was 4/3 and 3/5 which prevented the heavy non treaty commercial impacts of the past. Had not the GHMP 4/3 been in place it is likely the failure in not making escapement would have been of a scale not seen before.

Now with Chum it is different. In Mr. Campbell's review he found the following.

I just now looked at Chum. The picture is a bit different. The Chum run started out with less harvest than the plan and by week 43 one would conclude that the run was about 60% of the forecast size.

In this case again it was 4/3 that prevented a bad situation from being much worse. The difference here is both the QIN & WDF&W staff should have caught the over harvest due to a failure of the preseason forecast model. They did not and that is a substantial failure that both share responsibility for but regardless it was again 4/3 that prevented a much larger failure to make escapement.

Failure to make escapement three out of 5 years:
This provision in the GHMP addresses the failure to make escapement three out of five years and restricts directed harvest. It is known by the nickname "penalty box" and frankly Commissioners I really dislike it, will never like it and please do not substantially alter it. Strange as it may sound it is the tool that holds staff accountable and forces the public to stay engaged.

That said one can make the case that it should perhaps had a starting date of 2014? Additionally maybe more performance driven? By that I mean in 2014 it was not possible to catch the failure in harvest predictions (outlined previously) so perhaps that should not be a penalty box year for Chinook? On the other hand the Chum failure to make escapement could & should have been caught and harvest adjusted so this should be a penalty box year.

Foregone opportunity:
This issue is a difficult one to address. That the QIN took more than its 50% share but how does that compare with Steelhead which the state recreational fisher harvest more than the QIN fishers? Consider the impact on non treaty harvest of clams and crabs if the split was a hard 50%. So this issue deserves more thought and perhaps a wider look at the harvest of all the resources not just one species of salmon when setting salmon harvest in Grays Harbor.

Humptulips Natural Origin Coho:
The failure to make escapement for over twenty years is a issue that remains unresolved and needs resolution. That said it is a issue that only the agency, Commission, and the QIN can resolve. There is little citizen such as myself can do but bring the issue forward.

Aggregate of the Chehalis & Humptulips:
The QIN did not agree to the separation of the Humptulips and Chehalis for harvest management. As I understand it they wish to maintain the court driven mandates which allow aggregate management of all streams flowing into Grays Harbor. The issue remains unresolved.

Wynoochee Mitigation:
On this issue the agency has done absolutely nothing. Zero! Little can be said or should be said in defense of this total failure by staff to move forward on this issue. As in the prior twenty plus years the funds remain not being utilized to meet the requirements of the Tacoma City Light power generation mitigation that WDF&W has a legal requirement to meet. Big fat F- here.

GHMP clarification:
It is possible to read when breaking item a) word by word in the sentence that the 5% is to the aggregate not singular to a stock in the Chehalis or Humptulips. The key words are predicted fishery impact for that stock which is singular as to stock. The following words in WDFW-managed fisheries in the Grays Harbor Basin then direct one to the aggregate of all streams flowing into Grays Harbor. The sentence finishes with will not exceed 5% of the adult return to Grays Harbor; and which continues to direct management toward the aggregate. This is how Chum are managed but not Chinook and Coho which is a conflict within itself. Region 6 is defining the verbiage as singular to a stock and some disagree and say regardless of intent the verbiage directs aggregate so clarification is needed.

From the GHMP:
As a component of the annual fishery management review, the Department shall assess if spawner goals were achieved for Chehalis spring Chinook, Chehalis fall Chinook, Humptulips fall Chinook, Chehalis Coho, Humptulips Coho, and Grays Harbor chum salmon. If the number of natural-origin spawners was less than the goal in 3 out of the last 5 years (beginning in 2009), the Department shall implement the following measures:

a) The predicted fishery impact for that stock in WDFW-managed fisheries in the Grays Harbor Basin will not exceed 5% of the adult return to Grays Harbor; and

b) The predicted fishery impact for that stock in WDFW-managed fisheries in the Grays Harbor Basin will not exceed 5% of the adult return to Grays Harbor; and

c) If a spawner goal for fall Chinook salmon is not achieved, the Grays Harbor control zone2 off of the mouth of Grays Harbor will be implemented no later than the second Monday in August and continue until the end of September.

In closing I would grade the GHMP performance as a solid B. It was successful in many ways in particular conservation. It also had failures but that should not be unexpected for a management policy in its first year. Solid B.

Sincerely,




Edited by Rivrguy (03/25/15 11:34 AM)
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#926341 - 03/31/15 10:25 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4147
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
This is the Washington Fish and Wildlife Commission’s April 9-10, 2015 meeting agenda. Please note the meeting is on Thursday (4/9) and Friday (4/10). The meeting begins at 8:00 a.m. both days. Both Willapa and Grays Harbor are on Thursday the 9th with Willapa in the morning and Grays Harbor after lunch. Note location change.

April 9-10, 2015

Preliminary Meeting Agenda
Download PDF version
FISH AND WILDLIFE COMMISSION MEETING
APRIL 9-10, 2015
Capital Events Center
6005 Tyee Drive SW Tumwater WA 98512 - Mason/Lewis Rooms

Directions: www.capitaleventcenter.org/domain/97
THURSDAY, APRIL 9, 2015
8:00 AM 1. Call to Order
1. Commissioners’ Discussion
2. Meeting Minute Approval
8:15 AM 2. Open Public Input
The Commission is a direct link between the citizens of Washington and the Department of Fish and Wildlife. Comments on Department programs and topics of concern are welcome during this portion of the meeting.
NOTE: During this portion of the meeting, the public is encouraged to comment on issues that do not already have public input time on the agenda.
8:45 AM 3. Director’s Report
The Director will brief the Commission on various items.
9:15 AM 4. Willapa Bay Salmon Management Policy – Briefing and Public Hearing
The Department will brief the Commission on Willapa Bay Salmon Management challenges, describe the public process, and seek guidance on draft policy sideboards. Staff Report: Steve Thiesfeld, Region 6 Fish Program Manager
PUBLIC INPUT (This item only)

10:45 AM 5. 2015 Interim Willapa Bay Salmon Management Guidance Policy – Briefing and Public Hearing
Department staff will brief the Commission on Willapa Bay salmon management guidance for 2015, and seek direction for upcoming recreational and commercial fishing seasons.
Staff Report: Steve Thiesfeld, Region 6 Fish Program Manager
PUBLIC INPUT (This item only)

11:45 AM Lunch
12:45 PM 6. Grays Harbor Salmon Management Policy Review – Briefing and Public Hearing
Department staff will present an annual review to the Commission on the Grays Harbor Basin Salmon Management Policy C-3621 as set in the Adaptive Management objectives of the policy.
Staff Report: Steve Thiesfeld, Region 6 Fish Program Manager
PUBLIC INPUT (This item only)

1:30 PM 7. Game Reserves and Other Migratory Bird Hunting Regulations – Decision
Department staff will request approval on the proposed updates and amendments to game reserves and other migratory bird hunting regulations.
Staff Report: Don Kraege, Waterfowl Section Manager
1:40 PM 8. Landowner Hunting Permits – Decision
Department staff will request approval to make adjustments to permit levels and hunt dates in accordance with landowner needs and recreational goals.
Staff Report: Brian Calkins, Small Game/Hunting Access Section Manager, Wildlife Program
1:50 PM 9. Trapping Seasons and Regulations – Decision
Department staff will request approval on proposed dates, bag limits and other rules for all furbearers.
Staff Report: Brian Calkins, Small Game/Hunting Access Section Manager, Wildlife Program
2:00 PM 10. Small Game and Hunting Restrictions – Decision
Department staff will request approval on proposed dates, bag limits and other rules for small game and other wildlife hunting.
Staff Report: Brian Calkins, Small Game/Hunting Access Section Manager, Wildlife Program
2:15 PM 11. Falconry and Dog Training Eurasian Collared Doves – Decision
Department staff will request approval from the Commission to add this species to the lists of other species that can be used for training purposes.
Staff Report: Brian Calkins, Small Game/Hunting Access Section Manager, Wildlife Program
2:25 PM 12. Mountain Goat, Bighorn Sheep, and Moose Permits and Regulations – Decision
Department staff will request approval on recommendations regarding permit levels for mountain goats, bighorn sheep, and moose.
Staff Report: Rich Harris, Ph.D., Special Species Section Manager, Wildlife Program
2:45 PM 13. Deer Areas, Elk Areas, Special Closures and Firearm Restriction Areas – Decision
Department staff will request approval from the Commission on proposed amendments to deer and elk area descriptions and special closures and firearm restriction areas.
Staff Report: Jerry Nelson, Ph.D., Deer and Elk Section Manager, Wildlife Program
2:55 PM Break
3:05 PM 14. Elk General Seasons and Special Permit Regulations – Decision
Department staff will request approval from the Commission on elk general seasons and definitions and special permits.
Staff Report: Jerry Nelson, Ph.D., Deer and Elk Section Manager, Wildlife Program
3:25 PM 15. Deer General Seasons and Special Permit Regulations – Decision
Department staff will request approval on deer general seasons and definitions and special permit seasons.
Staff Report: Jerry Nelson, Ph.D., Deer and Elk Section Manager, Wildlife Program
3:55 PM 16. Baiting of Deer and Elk – Decision
Department staff will request approval on a proposal for baiting rules.
Staff Report: Jerry Nelson, Ph.D., Deer and Elk Section Manager, Wildlife Program
4:15 PM 17. Hunter Orange Clothing Requirements – Decision
Department staff will request approval on the need for regulatory clarity to ensure Master Hunters wear fluorescent hunter orange clothing while hunting during hunting seasons that allow the use of modern firearms.
Staff Report: David Whipple, Hunter Education Division Manager
4:25 PM 18. Multiple Season Big Game Permits and Reduced Rate Combination Elk Hunting License – Decision
Department staff will request approval on the master hunter incentive for elk hunting and an adjustment to the date and procedure for purchasing a multiple season big game permit.
Staff Report: David Whipple, Hunter Education Division Manager
4:35 PM 19. Game Management Unit Boundaries – Decision
Department staff will request approval from the Commission on proposed amendments to game management boundary descriptions in Region 1 and Region 5.
Staff Report: Jerry Nelson, Ph.D., Deer and Elk Section Manager, Wildlife Program
4:45 PM 20. Importation and Retention of Dead Nonresident Wildlife – Decision
Department staff will request approval proposed amendments to importation and retention of dead nonresident wildlife.
Staff Report: Jerry Nelson, Ph.D., Deer and Elk Section Manager, Wildlife Program
4:55 PM Recess
FISH AND WILDLIFE COMMISSION MEETING
APRIL 9-10, 2015
Capital Events Center
6005 Tyee Drive SW Tumwater WA 98512 - Mason/Lewis Rooms
Directions: www.capitaleventcenter.org/domain/97
FRIDAY, APRIL 10, 2015
8:00 AM 21. Open Public Input
The Commission is a direct link between the citizens of Washington and the Department of Fish and Wildlife. Comments on Department programs and topics of concern are welcome during this portion of the meeting.
NOTE: During this portion of the meeting, the public is encouraged to comment on issues that do not already have public input time on the agenda.
8:30 AM 22. Equipment Requirements – Decision
Department staff will request approval from the Commission on equipment requirements.
Staff Report: Jerry Nelson, Ph.D., Deer and Elk Section Manager, Wildlife Program
8:50 AM 23. Cougar Hunting Seasons and Regulations –Decision
Department staff will request approval from the Commission on cougar harvest and human-cougar conflict trends. Staff will also describe how the results from these topics are incorporated into the Department’s cougar management strategies. The Commission will also be briefed on the proposed 2015–2016, 2016–2017, and 2017–2018 cougar hunting seasons and regulations.
Staff Report: Donny Martorello, Ph.D., Carnivore Section Manager, Wildlife Program
9:05 AM 24. Fall and Spring Black Bear Seasons and Regulations –Decision
Department staff will request approval of proposed amendments to 2015- 2017 fall black bear hunting seasons and regulations and 2018 Spring black bear seasons and regulations.
Staff Report: Donny Martorello, Ph.D., Carnivore Section Manager, Wildlife Program
9:20 AM 25. Steller Sea Lion and Tufted Puffin Status Review – Decision
Department staff will request approval from the Commission on the status review of the Steller Sea Lion and Tufted Puffin.
Staff Report: Penny Becker, Ph.D., Acting Diversity Division Manager and Gary Wiles, Biologist, Wildlife Program
9:30 AM 26. Candidate Conservation Agreement with Assurances – Briefing
Department staff will brief the Commission on two draft voluntary agreements aimed at providing assurances to landowners who sign up to conserve sage-grouse and fisher on their lands before they are federally listed.
Staff Report: Penny Becker, Acting Diversity Division Manager and Cynthia Wilkerson, Lands Conservation and Restoration Section Manager, Wildlife Program
10:00 AM Break
10:15 AM 27. Quilcene and Dabob Bay Flatfish Sport Rules – Briefing and Public Hearing
Department staff will provide the Commission a briefing on proposed adjustments to the recreational flatfish fisheries within the Quilcene and Dabob bays.
Staff Report: Craig Burley, Fish Management Division Manager and Dayv Lowry, Ph.D., Research Scientist
PUBLIC INPUT (This item only)

11:00 AM 28. Results of the 2014 Puget Sound Dungeness Crab Fishery – Briefing
Department staff will provide an annual briefing summarizing the performance and harvest of both commercial and recreational fisheries during the 2014 season and regulation compliance data collected by enforcement and fishery management staff as required in Policy C-3609.
Staff Report: Rich Childers, Puget Sound Shellfish Manager and Mike Cenci, Deputy Chief of Enforcement
11:30 AM 29. Results of the 2014 Puget Sound Shrimp Fishery – Briefing
Department staff will provide an annual briefing summarizing for each management region the performance and harvest of both commercial and recreational fisheries during the 2014 season as required by Policy C-3610.
Staff Report: Rich Childers, Puget Sound Shellfish Manager
12:00 PM 30. Columbia River Sturgeon Update – Briefing
Department staff will brief the Commission on discussion results with stakeholder for Columbia River Sturgeon management in 2015.
Staff Report: Guy Norman, Region 5 Director
12:30 PM 31. Technical Amendments to Recreational Fishing Rules – Briefing and Public Hearing
The Department is proposing technical changes to several recreational fishing rules to update, clarify provisions, and ensure rule accuracy.
Staff Report: Joanna Eide, Criminal Justice Liaison/Regulations Coordinator
PUBLIC INPUT (This item only)

1:00 PM 32. Miscellaneous and Meeting Debrief
The Commission will discuss items that arise immediately before or during the meeting and after the preliminary agenda is published.
1:15 PM Adjourn
Contact the Fish and Wildlife Commission Office for further information:
Phone (360) 902-2267
Email: commission@dfw.wa.gov



Edited by Rivrguy (03/31/15 10:29 AM)
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#926343 - 03/31/15 11:17 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
DrifterWA Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 04/25/00
Posts: 5008
Loc: East of Aberdeen, West of Mont...
Hello.......The following is what Rivguy posted but this is more readable:

WDFW Commission meeting April 9 & 10, 2015

Click on following link:


http://wdfw.wa.gov/commission/meetings/2015/04/agenda_apr0915.html.


Edited by DrifterWA (03/31/15 11:23 AM)
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"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"

"I thought growing older, would take longer"

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#926427 - 04/02/15 12:27 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12719
Usually these meetings occur on a Fri-Sat..... not sure why this one is going Thu-Fri.

Will be unable to personally attend on Thurs.... 1st time thru the entire Grays Harbor and Willapa Bay policy development processes. Fourteen cases in the operating room 4-8, and they all need to be seen the next day 4-9.

May the "force" be with those who testify on behalf of recs.

Stand firm on NO AUGUST DIP IN for chinook!

They need to hear it early and often! DrifterWA, if you'd be willing to sign up to testify, I can script something for you to recite.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#926431 - 04/02/15 07:55 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
DrifterWA Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 04/25/00
Posts: 5008
Loc: East of Aberdeen, West of Mont...
Can a person sign up twice????? I Want to chat about Wynoochee mitigation or lack of movement.....
_________________________
"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"

"I thought growing older, would take longer"

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#926432 - 04/02/15 08:20 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
bob r Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 04/17/13
Posts: 289
Originally Posted By: eyeFISH


Stand firm on NO AUGUST DIP IN for chinook!

They need to hear it early and often! DrifterWA, if you'd be willing to sign up to testify, I can script something for you to recite.


Francis, I assume this is a commercial Willipa Bay issue? Melanie and I will make the afternoon Grays Harbor section, but we have to do our annual volunteer work at the Satsop Springs ponds moving trout around in the morning. Bob R

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#926440 - 04/02/15 10:47 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: DrifterWA]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12719
Originally Posted By: DrifterWA
Can a person sign up twice????? I Want to chat about Wynoochee mitigation or lack of movement.....


Yes... 8:15 open pubic input for non-agenda item (Wynoochee mitigation)
Then again at 915 for WB policy after directors report (agenda item)
Then again at 10:45 for WB INTERIM (2015 only) after that (agenda item)
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#926449 - 04/02/15 01:30 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
DrifterWA Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 04/25/00
Posts: 5008
Loc: East of Aberdeen, West of Mont...
Might wait on Wynoochee until afternoon session.....Grays Harbor...
_________________________
"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"

"I thought growing older, would take longer"

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#926531 - 04/05/15 07:46 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: DrifterWA]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4147
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope

This article is a interesting read. What I find most interesting is the commercial harvesters refusal to understand ( maybe accept is a better word ) what overharvest means. Some things never change.


http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news...=article_bottom
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Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#926539 - 04/05/15 11:25 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Rivrguy]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4147
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
This is a letter I submitted to the Commission for clarification. In all fisheries be it Rec or Commercial you encounter and have a mortality impact on another species. The most glaring examples happen to be Commercial to be honest. We have had targeted Coho fisheries that get more Chum which many immediately call foul on. Now out of the many tribal legal actions came definitive seasons by species Coho / Chinook / Chum and they are by week. Now this can make sense in the tribal fisheries but WDF&W carries the definitions into the Non Treaty fisheries and that is the issue.

So I was asked to seek clarification and that is the letter below. Be interesting to see what the response is. Oh almost forgot I directed the question directly to the Commission and did a CC to WDF&W staff.


March 25, 2015

I have been asked to submit as a Grays Harbor Adviser for clarification the definition of the word "incidental" as it applies to harvest in both the Grays Harbor Management Policy (GHMP) and the currently being developed Willapa Management Policy (WMP).

Incidental is the term to used to describe the impacts of harvest on one species of salmon while harvesting another in both GHMP & WMMP. At the present it normally revolves around Chinook and Chum impacts while commercially harvesting Coho but it also occurs in the recreational fisheries also.

The question I am requesting clarification on is just what percentage of catch should be allowed as incidental? In both Willapa & Grays Harbor we have had targeted Coho fisheries that had greater impacts or nearly equal impacts on Chum. This primarily happens when guidelines or harvest policy limits a directed harvest on a species.

This leads to considerable confusion and lack of trust as many view this as a blatant attempt to circumvent policy guidelines. In discussing with others the meaning and implications of the term "incidental" they turn to the following definition of the word incidental.

(sometimes followed by `to') minor or casual or subordinate in significance or nature or occurring as a chance concomitant or consequence

I am requesting clarification of how the term "incidental" or any other term staff would choose to describe impacts on one species while harvesting another. I am not aware of a percentage utilized such as in a Coho fishery where 55% is Coho and 45% Chum or even reversed when a Coho fishery is 45% and "incidental" Chum is 55%. We do have verbiage such the 5% limiters & 10% but circumstances are seldom the same year to year and often the conflict in definition of impacts of a non targeted species is present.

Be it the word "incidental" or any other agency staff choose to utilize, when does the bycatch of one species while targeting another for harvest become in reality two targeted or directed fisheries? I am requesting clarification as many feel it is needed to end what they see as attempts to circumvent both the GHMP & WMP while others do not. The different views on the definition of non targeted impacts are not reconcilable so clarification is needed.

Sincerely,
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#926722 - 04/07/15 10:16 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Rivrguy]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4147
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope


Here is the updated NOF schedule for setting Willapa fall salmon seasons. As Steve outlines below I think after this week's Commission meeting we will have a better idea of where we are headed.

Hi Everyone,

As you may recall, we postponed our North of Falcon meetings to discuss salmon seasons for Willapa Bay while we waited for the Fish and Wildlife Commission to provide some interim guidance for 2015. We are hopeful that guidance will be provided on Thursday. In preparation for moving forward with Willapa Bay salmon season discussions, we have tentatively scheduled the following meetings:

• Tuesday April 21st, WB advisory Meeting, Raymond High School Library, 6-9pm
• Thursday April 23rd, WB Public Meeting, Raymond Elks, 6-9pm
• Tuesday April 28th, WB Advisory Meeting, Raymond High School Library, 6-9pm
• Thursday April 30th, WB Public Meeting, Raymond Elks, 6-9pm

So please mark these dates on your calendars. Once we have guidance from the Commission, we’ll work to get a news release out (assuming Public Affairs deems it news release worthy).

Thank you all for your patience during this process.

Cheers.


Steve Thiesfeld
Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife
Region 6 Fish Program Manager
48 Devonshire Road, Montesano, WA 98563
Steven.Thiesfeld@dfw.wa.gov
360-249-1201
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#926902 - 04/09/15 06:39 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Rivrguy]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4147
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
OK on the Commission meeting today with Willapa & Grays Harbor on the agenda. First Willapa Policy ( long term ) was reviewed and after testimony all over the board the Commission requested another option (D) be developed using a 14% harvest rate. That sent shudders out and about. Keep in mind last year the agency used 20% which came out at 37%+ so that will be a challenge to meet with the NT Nets. Also the need for reform to insure no ESA and Federal control was aired out. This is the first time I can recall that the depth of the problem of overharvest of natural origin Chinook in Willapa was openly & frankly discussed. On the Interim Willapa Policy they accepted the agency draft ( which I will post as soon as I get a electronic copy ) but changed the harvest rate from 20% to 14%. Lot of rockin & rollin around that!

In the GH review the agency presentation was better and pretty straight forward. Now here one of the Commissioners ( associated with commercial interest ) attempted to amend the policy but that went down after it was pointed out it was a review not a "reopening". The Commercials really & I mean really hate 4/3 ( three days a week net free ) and went after it. Frankly the manner in which the Commercials present presented their case was, to say the least, lacking in thought and facts. Did not work well.

On the other hand the fact that the QIN gobbled up much of the Chinook savings was put forward but the agency did not do that well in defining the issue which created some confusion. The thing I find most striking is this simple fact, despite acknowledging the issue staff did not define how it was presented to the QIN. Back mathing the harvest model it was not apparent that the run was early and way short of preseason forecast. So if the run had come in at forecasted size the % the QIN take and escapement would have been different.

Tribal relations are as low as I have seen since the post Boldt years and it needs to be resolved but frankly this is a agency issue, one that a citizen will have little impact on, and rooted in the QIN mistrust of WDF&W. Now Steve Thiesfeld is new and is different from past WDF&W managers but like it or not he is saddled with years of history, most bad. Frankly having been around QIN fishers over the years they have very real reasons not to trust WDF&W. I mean like hell if the QIN had dropped days of there schedule WDF&W would have simply put in the NT Nets in their place. So on this one it is still finger pointing time.


Edited by Rivrguy (04/09/15 06:46 PM)
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