#891069 - 04/05/14 03:21 PM
Re: Lawsuit over PS Steelhead hatcheries today
[Re: Salman]
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Carcass
Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 2267
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Is it just me or would all of this bickering stop if WDFW just used native fish for hatchery fish? No, unfortunately, pretty much the same situation. According to the WFC website they are against broodstock supplementation as well. The HC HGMP submitted in May 2009 has received the same results from the feds as the Chamber Creek plants, as far as I can tell. The HC steelhead supplementation program is an ongoing 16 year experiment that expires in 2022.
Edited by Lucky Louie (04/05/14 05:24 PM)
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#891078 - 04/05/14 07:10 PM
Re: Lawsuit over PS Steelhead hatcheries today
[Re: Lucky Louie]
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Juvenile at Sea
Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 136
Loc: auburn, wa
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If the Puget Sound rivers systems are going to be void of hatchery fish it will be interesting to see what the treaty tribes have to say. Do you think they are going to just hang up their nets and walk away?
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#891079 - 04/05/14 07:36 PM
Re: Lawsuit over PS Steelhead hatcheries today
[Re: jon]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7741
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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If memory serves, few of the PS Tribes have steelhead fisheries any more, they are taken incidentally with chum. Lack of hatchery steelhead may just give them more time on the chum.
Steelhead just get in the way.
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#891081 - 04/05/14 08:56 PM
Re: Lawsuit over PS Steelhead hatcheries today
[Re: Carcassman]
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Carcass
Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 2267
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WFC evidence shown in Appendix B of the papers they filed in court that the goal of the hatcheries are to provide steelhead for sport and tribal harvest opportunity from the 8 out of the 9 hatcheries in the complaint.
The one lone hatchery was to provide in river fishing for sport fishing only.
Even in the HC supplementation program the tribes have negotiated for some of the steelhead for Ceremonial purposes.
Edited by Lucky Louie (04/05/14 10:52 PM)
_________________________
The world will not be destroyed by those that are evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything.- Albert Einstein
No you can’t have my rights---I’m still using them
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#891082 - 04/05/14 09:49 PM
Re: Lawsuit over PS Steelhead hatcheries today
[Re: Lucky Louie]
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Lord of the Chums
Registered: 03/29/14
Posts: 6779
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they filed another lawsuit against the NOAA-FS, USFWS, National Parks Service, Department of Commerce, and Department of Interior for the Elwha situation.. (this one the judge sided with them on) http://www.peninsuladailynews.com/articl...tchery-issue-in
Edited by Evo (04/05/14 09:52 PM)
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#891146 - 04/06/14 11:54 PM
Re: Lawsuit over PS Steelhead hatcheries today
[Re: SkykomishSunrise]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7741
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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This action may finally get a hearing on Boldt II and ESA. As Billy says, the treaty right is to dead fish in the boat. If WA (and the Feds) don't want to do hatchery fish then they will need to do it with wild fish. And that means leaving water in streams, keep pollutants out of the water, trees on the land, and so on.
There is a giant can of worms that may just get opened. At least the lawyers will be kept busy.
Oddly enough, it looks like the best friend that a lot of anglers on PP have will be the Tribes.
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#891254 - 04/07/14 11:52 PM
Re: Lawsuit over PS Steelhead hatcheries today
[Re: Carcassman]
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Lord of the Chums
Registered: 03/29/14
Posts: 6779
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wonder what they have to say about this? http://www.cbbulletin.com/430264.aspx
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BLM IS A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION ANTIFA IS A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION
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#891262 - 04/08/14 12:34 AM
Re: Lawsuit over PS Steelhead hatcheries today
[Re: 5 * General Evo]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7741
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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To the fisherman concerned only with dead fish in the boat, what matters is how many can be caught. Further, as WA and the tribes have said (paraphrased) about steelhead "the purpose of fish management is to provide catch and escapment is the number of fish that can't be harvested in order to support the catch". With that mindset, hatchery fish are "better" because a larger fraction of the run can be killed.
Hatchery fish also appeal to developers because they convert land and water to fish more efficiently than the natural habitat. Hoosdport hatchery at one time produced a couple hundred thousand chum on 20-30 cfs of Finch Creek water. The whole Skagit watershed doesn't do that.
I am not suggesting we should push towards hatcheries but they can be economically alluring to politicians who can't say no, governmnets that need a continuously expanding economy, and fishermen consumers that demand dead fish.
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#891263 - 04/08/14 12:41 AM
Re: Lawsuit over PS Steelhead hatcheries today
[Re: Carcassman]
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Spawner
Registered: 03/07/12
Posts: 781
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If habitat loss is the problem why do hatchery fish keep coming back? Notice a gill net was never mentioned?
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#891269 - 04/08/14 01:12 AM
Re: Lawsuit over PS Steelhead hatcheries today
[Re: Salman]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7741
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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While gillnets are many folks favorite whipping boy the Willapa Bay wild Chinook hit the bay this year with fewer fish than the escapement goal and the only fisheries they have encountered have been ones with hooks.
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#891277 - 04/08/14 08:24 AM
Re: Lawsuit over PS Steelhead hatcheries today
[Re: Salman]
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Registered: 10/13/00
Posts: 9013
Loc: everett
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If habitat loss is the problem why do hatchery fish keep coming back? Notice a gill net was never mentioned? The percentage of planted fish that make it back is really quite low. Read a history of the Snohomish river and way back when the river valley was first settled the stories are that the trees along the river bank stretched over the river to meet in the middle. look at it now.
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#891282 - 04/08/14 10:36 AM
Re: Lawsuit over PS Steelhead hatcheries today
[Re: Jerry Garcia]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7741
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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Saw a paper on the Snohomish system that estimated loss of coho smolts due to habitat changes in the lowlands. This included loss of beaver ponds, swamps, and all the other improvements we have added like dikes and levees. Current smolt production is something like one third of what it used to be. And the Snoho produces (or at least recently produced) a lot of wild coho.
Another "loss" is all the lowland lakes that used to connect to anadromous waters. Coho used to rear and overwinter in them. System I worked on produced 10-15K coho smolts in the creek. The lake got cleaned out of spiny rays and now can kick out 30K on its own. Most of those lakes had screens installed on them to keep planted rainbows in. Imaging the coho production possible if those lakes worked as God intended.
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#891324 - 04/08/14 04:32 PM
Re: Lawsuit over PS Steelhead hatcheries today
[Re: Carcassman]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 3426
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While gillnets are many folks favorite whipping boy the Willapa Bay wild Chinook hit the bay this year with fewer fish than the escapement goal and the only fisheries they have encountered have been ones with hooks. Carcass, You seem well-versed on fisheries issues and I respect much of what you have to say but do you really mean the above quote? There's the little issue of 90+% of the entire Bay harvest being gobbled up by the commercials, chinook included. Are you saying that once wild chinook hit Willapa Bay they only are caught by hook and line and completely avoid gill nets? A little clarity please.
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#891325 - 04/08/14 04:35 PM
Re: Lawsuit over PS Steelhead hatcheries today
[Re: Eric]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7741
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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No, I am saying that before they hit the bay the hook and line fisheries in AK and BC have already taken the harvestable "surplus".
Not arguing that once they hit the Bay that Nets take way too many but the history of WA Chinook is sustained excessive harvest by hook and line, especially to the north.
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#891347 - 04/08/14 09:27 PM
Re: Lawsuit over PS Steelhead hatcheries today
[Re: 5 * General Evo]
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Returning Adult
Registered: 10/21/13
Posts: 290
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its damn near plain as day, as to who to sue, and one of the major problems with declining fish populations in all of Puget Sound and the Canal, with just looking at one thing...
the tribes..
the Quinault river..
they cant use the "its not heavily fished" thing, because the guides out there take people out every day, and alot also fish themselves.. its so good because they dont net the [Bleeeeep!] out of it, they net the hell out of other river systems and leave theirs pristine... while the other systems go down, down, down...
Bill Baake was in an interview with West Fly, and he was asked about hatcheries.. hatcheries have been around since 1877, and he said, after that long of a "test" we have proven that they arent successful, because fish are still declining, blah blah blah..
i propose a test, take the nets out of EVERY stream in Wa State besides the Columbia due to size (didnt they ban gill nets there tho, or was that just a try?), and let the natives fish with rod an line, with the same limit as sportfishers, and lets see if the runs dont improve.. we should get atleast a 100 year shot at that "test", to scientifically prove that nets do more damage than anyone can really imagine...
and an addition to the test, all ocean fishery limits are cut in half, for the next 10 years.. yeah salmon prices will go up, but i dont care about what fish costs in NY or Japan, as i catch my own..
but remember the key thing in this.. the tribes..
what do you think they are gonna do, when they have no fishery, because the WDFW didnt release any fish, and therefore couldnt continue with their way of lives, that they were granted in 1974?
they will do what they did last time... SUE.. gtfo redhook
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#891381 - 04/09/14 02:24 PM
Re: Lawsuit over PS Steelhead hatcheries today
[Re: GBL]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7741
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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You can"t fix the habitat as long as you allow more people to move in.
You've clearly identified that we KNOW exactly how to have strong runs of wild fish.
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