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#891851 - 04/15/14 01:28 AM Wild Fish Conservancy Supporters
Moravec Offline


Registered: 03/27/08
Posts: 1045
Loc: Snoqualmie WA/Cordova AK
Wild Fish Conservancy might just put the final nail in the coffin for our Puget Sound Steelhead, Chinook & Coho Salmon fisheries. With their current lawsuit against WDFW, the state has tentatively cancelled hatchery Steelhead smolt releases this spring. If you care at all about our potential loss of our prized fisheries in Puget Sound, you might want to take a look at the list of WFC donors... individuals and companies that support WFC.

I plan on contacting sponsors and giving them my opinion on their generosity to the WFC.

Official WFC Donors LINK
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#891854 - 04/15/14 01:58 AM Re: Wild Fish Conservancy Supporters [Re: Moravec]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12767
FishEyeGuy Photography has some stunning images in his gallery!
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#891927 - 04/15/14 03:27 PM Re: Wild Fish Conservancy Supporters [Re: eyeFISH]
SBD Offline
clown flocker

Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 3743
Loc: Water
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#891929 - 04/15/14 03:53 PM Re: Wild Fish Conservancy Supporters [Re: SBD]
MPM Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/09/08
Posts: 766
Loc: Seattle, WA
How do you figure the suit will hurt coho fisheries ?

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#891936 - 04/15/14 04:40 PM Re: Wild Fish Conservancy Supporters [Re: MPM]
OncyT Offline
Spawner

Registered: 02/06/08
Posts: 506
My guess is that he suspects they will also file suit about the rest of the hatchery programs. I don't know why they couldn't. Those don't have permits either.

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#891956 - 04/15/14 07:10 PM Re: Wild Fish Conservancy Supporters [Re: OncyT]
Eric Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 3513
Very few of those donors will lose a dime if the worst-case hatchery scenario played out (elimination).

A few surprised me being on the list.

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#891958 - 04/15/14 07:17 PM Re: Wild Fish Conservancy Supporters [Re: Eric]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
I think the more important thing to note here is that if all the donors went away, and the WFC went away, WDFW would still be in blatant violation of the ESA several times over...we don't have to like the WFC, but this is exactly what they do, make sure that the various agencies follow the law, and WDFW is not even close on this one.

The next press release that WDFW wastes four minutes writing about how they'll have to suspend hatchery steelhead releases because of this mean ol' lawsuit tell them to STFU and go DO THEIR GODDAMMM JOBS and get the permits that they were legally required to get TWELVE YEARS AGO and have known about all along.

That is where the fault lies in this entire issue...with the State and the Feds for not getting this handled, and with the Tribes for not using their considerable weight to get it done, too.

It's like blaming a speeding ticket on the cop who gives you the ticket instead of taking the blame for going 85 in a 50.

Fish on...

Todd
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#891959 - 04/15/14 07:26 PM Re: Wild Fish Conservancy Supporters [Re: Todd]
MPM Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/09/08
Posts: 766
Loc: Seattle, WA
I'm with Todd on this one.

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#891960 - 04/15/14 07:35 PM Re: Wild Fish Conservancy Supporters [Re: MPM]
JJ Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 203
Loc: redmond, WA
But Todd why would you want to let facts get in the way of thinking an organization is terrible. Good post. WDFW had 12 years to get their poop together and they didn't. Period end of statement. 12 years people. Come on.
JJ

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#891962 - 04/15/14 07:56 PM Re: Wild Fish Conservancy Supporters [Re: JJ]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12767
This whole thing is just another replay of what went down in Oregon… same smell, only the names have changed.

NFS took quite a beating for just trying to hold ODFW accountable for its hatchery practices.

No one said close 'em, just run 'em right (and legal, too).
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#891964 - 04/15/14 08:17 PM Re: Wild Fish Conservancy Supporters [Re: eyeFISH]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
I like to go fishing, and my customers like to go fishing for those fish...my business in part relies on those fish being there.

I'm pissed as hell at WDFW for fuckin this off for so long, them and NOAA-F both.

I'm pissed that the tribes, who also benefit from these hatchery programs, didn't do anything about it, either.

I'm pissed at sportsfishermen who think it's the WFC's fault.

The only ones I'm not pissed at are the folks at the WFC...they're just doing what they do, whether or not we like it. It's not their fault that NO ONE HAS DONE THEIR JOB on this issue.

Fish on...

Todd
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#891971 - 04/15/14 09:55 PM Re: Wild Fish Conservancy Supporters [Re: Todd]
Double Haul Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 1558
Loc: Wherever I can swing for wild ...
I saw this on WF BB written by Kent Lufkin and felt it was interesting post to share here:

"Two points: First, I couldn't agree more that like it or not, it often takes a lawsuit to get someone's attention.

The WFC suit wasn't some nefarious conspiracy to enrich the previously mentioned 'fat cat lawyers'. This suit was brought with the intention of forcing WDFW to do its job. This isn't the first time a lawsuit has been filed, nor will it be the last. Neither will WFC be the only group to file one. It takes the threat of appearing in court to force WDFW and other agencies to answer hard questions or to take action they'd rather avoid.

Second, it helps to understand WDFW's worldview. The department holds three things above all others: hatcheries; harvest; and license sales.

Like many other states, Washington drank the hatchery Kool Aid early and deep. WDFW is fully on board with the notion that hatcheries are the panacea to the problem of people killing more fish than are able to reproduce. Every fisherman should make a point of reading 'An Entirely Synthetic Fish: How Rainbow Trout Beguiled America and Overran the World' by Anders Halverson. It traces the history of fish hatcheries in glorious detail while discussing the problems with the fish they literally manufacture. Problems WDFW and their peers in other states would prefer not to acknowledge, like how hatchery fish impact the survival of natives.

Hatcheries cost a shitload of money to build and to operate. By committing to them as an ongoing enterprise, WDFW needs to continually justify their enormous expense, especially in these tight budget times. Promoting catch and kill fishing is the best way to do so. The more fish that are harvested, the more hatcheries need to crank out more fish to replace them, and in the process rationalize their cost and purpose. WDFW is NOT interested in promoting catch and release for the simple reason it flies in the face of its investment in hatcheries.

In these dark days of post-McCleary budget woes, WDFW desperately needs to sell fishing licenses and raise fees to replace money that it previously received from the general fund. That train has left the station, so in order to continue to fund hatcheries and indeed all other department operations, WDFW needs to sell licenses - a LOT of licenses. Hence the huge marketing push to promote fishing and to lure new and so-called lapsed anglers to the water with the promise of stringers full of fish - bigger fish. Guess where all those 'catchables' come from?

The WFC lawsuit serves as a well-placed broomstick handle in the spokes of WDFW's bicycle. Forcing them to acknowledge the Chambers Creek hatchery's role in the demise of wild fish and to live up to their existing obligations to mitigate damage caused by hatchery fish calls into question the role of hatcheries and everything connected with them. In essence, the very soul of the department.

WDFW's decision to not release a batch of hatchery fish is a shot over the bow of fishermen across the state, a calculated statement that the department believes there are more people who'd rather catch and kill a hatchery fish than see natives survive. By splitting sporting groups along that line, they likely figure the backlash by pro-hatchery fishers will pressure WFC into either withdrawing their suit or settling on a watered down compromise that WDFW can then proceed to ignore."


Edited by Double Haul (04/15/14 10:00 PM)
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#891983 - 04/16/14 01:11 AM Re: Wild Fish Conservancy Supporters [Re: Double Haul]
Lucky Louie Offline
Carcass

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 2286
I’m not going to support these sponsors so some of the profits they make off me goes to WFC and possibly their partner organizations.
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No you can’t have my rights---I’m still using them





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#891998 - 04/16/14 12:04 PM Re: Wild Fish Conservancy Supporters [Re: Lucky Louie]
AP a.k.a. Kaiser D Offline
Hippie

Registered: 01/31/02
Posts: 4533
Loc: B'ham
Kent Lufkin and Todd both lay it out well. The blame rests so squarely on the WDFW, I have a hard time even understanding the vitriol directed a WFC? For whatever reason, those with the most fire towards WFC seem to be loose with words and late to the party, neither of which is beneficial to their position given the game being played.

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#892023 - 04/16/14 02:30 PM Re: Wild Fish Conservancy Supporters [Re: AP a.k.a. Kaiser D]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: AP a.k.a. Kaiser D
Kent Lufkin and Todd both lay it out well. The blame rests so squarely on the WDFW, I have a hard time even understanding the vitriol directed a WFC? For whatever reason, those with the most fire towards WFC seem to be loose with words and late to the party, neither of which is beneficial to their position given the game being played.


Acknowledging my ignorance would you please lay some foundation for your assertion that the blame rests squarely on WDFW? Not saying you are wrong but are you able to provide a timeline of germane WDFW/NMFS actions and which agency currently has the ball in their court in that process?
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#892032 - 04/16/14 03:16 PM Re: Wild Fish Conservancy Supporters [Re: Larry B]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Larry, 12 years ago when the PS Chinook were listed WDFW came under the legal requirement to make sure that all of their activities in Puget Sound were in accordance with the ESA.

That included getting permits for their hatchery programs certifying that they were being run in accordance with the ESA.

They never got the permits that were required by the ESA. This is not a "probably should get" permits...this is federal law that requires that they get permits.

After sitting on it for a while and not getting permits, they were sued by Washington Trout (who is now the WFC) for being in violation of the ESA.

After some haggling WDFW and WT/WFC settled out of court...and WFC agreed to lay off suing WDFW over this issue...which WDFW was blatantly and admittedly in direct violation of...for ten years.

They gave them ten years to get their ducks in a row and get the permits so that they wouldn't be in direct violation of the ESA.

There's no question that WDFW is in violation of the ESA...there won't even be a trial if it comes to it, it will take one hour and WDFW will lose on summary judgment.

"Do you agree that the ESA requires a permit?"
"Yes"
"Do you have the permits?"
"No"

Judgment for the plaintiff, plus costs.

That's how long the trial would take, and exactly how it would go.

So...during the ten year hiatus of the lawsuit, the PS steelhead were listed, too. This will also require a permit, but I suspect that the work for the Chinook ESA permit and the Steelhead ESA permit will be virtually identical...as a matter of fact I'd be very surprised if they didn't all come in one bundle.

The ten years goes by...more, actually...and guess what?

WDFW still has not got the permits to show that their PS hatchery programs are ESA-compliant.

They knew all along they needed them, and they did not get them.

They also knew that they would be sued for it after TEN YEARS and still didn't get it done.

Now the WFC is doing exactly what they said they would do over TEN YEARS AGO...give them an entire decade to get their program certified as ESA compliant...which they did...and then sue them if they didn't.

CCA or PSA or some other sportfishing group has a problem with this? Where the fukk have they been the last 12 years making sure the programs they like are fully permitted?

Dudes starting boycotts against the WFC and their donors? Where the fukk have they been the last 12 years?

The tribes? They benefit from these programs...where the fuckk have they been the last 12 years?

WDFW? NOAA-F? The agencies whose JOBS it is to do this stuff? Where the fukk have they been?

There is a TON of blame to go around here...and like the WFC or not, they should be at the bottom of the blame list long after all the rest.

They did EXACTLY what they said they would do...and WDFW did NOT.

Did NOAA-F drag their feet? Then the tribes and State should have sued them to make them do their JOB. Has the State dragged its feet? Then NOAA-F should have stepped in YEARS ago and told them to either get compliant or shut it down.

Now it's WFC's fault that the WFC did exactly what they said they would do, while every other group either sat on their asses and did nothing, at best, or were in direct violation of federal law for well over a decade, at worst?

I don't give two fukks about the WFC donor list or what they do...I give a lot of fukks about my TAX dollars, my business TAX dollars, my license fees, my customers, and their taxes and license fees that are going to WDFW, the State of Washington, and the Federal Government while they sit on their asses and do absolutely NOTHING about this, and this is their JOB.

Fish on...

Todd
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Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#892037 - 04/16/14 03:47 PM Re: Wild Fish Conservancy Supporters [Re: ]
fishbadger Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 03/06/01
Posts: 1195
Loc: Gig Harbor, WA
Fukkin-A!

I have no particular dog in this fight, and I'm neutral on WFC, but it doesn't take too many neurons to rub together between the ears to figure out that the WDFW is halting this hatchery plant to pit the sportsmen against the WFC (and indirectly against each other along the lines of pro/anti hatch),

fb


Edited by fishbadger (04/16/14 03:48 PM)
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#892041 - 04/16/14 04:08 PM Re: Wild Fish Conservancy Supporters [Re: ]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Originally Posted By: Redd_Daetona
Whewww, thats a lot of phuks to work through...


I have a lot more of them that I'd have liked to have used...couldn't help but let a few in there.

I have another theory about why WDFW failed to ever get their permits, too, and it's not a happy theory.

My theory on that is that they won't be able to get their permits because their operations are in violation of the ESA to a very significant extent, and they know it, NOAA-F knows it, the tribes know it, so no one wanted to actually do it.

We'll see, because they are going to have to get those permits, no doubt about it...I sure hope they can do it soon, and do it right.

Fish on...

Todd
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Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#892044 - 04/16/14 04:13 PM Re: Wild Fish Conservancy Supporters [Re: fishbadger]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Todd, I appreciate your response but it seems overly defensive.

Are you saying that WDFW has not submitted any paperwork to NOAA/NMFS for the required permit?
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Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#892047 - 04/16/14 04:19 PM Re: Wild Fish Conservancy Supporters [Re: Larry B]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
No, I'm not.

I'm saying that WDFW has not got their permits...where they are, and why they haven't been done...I don't know exactly.

But if WDFW hasn't submitted the required paperwork, then shame on them.

If they have, and NOAA-F hasn't acted upon it, then shame on them for not doing it, and shame on WDFW and the tribes for not suing them to make them do their JOB.

I'm not being defensive...I'm just flummoxed by the "sportfishing" reaction to the WFC when they are doing exactly what they promised they would do, and doing exactly what they represent, while those who have failed to do their jobs are the very people that all of us pay to do their jobs...the State, and the Feds.

Every single WFC donor can pull out, the WFC can close up shop and go away...and WDFW will still be in direct violation of the ESA, and who will get blamed then?

I like how everyone hates the Gubmint and wants them to follow the law and venerates those who fight the Gubmint tooth and nail to make them follow the law...unless the Gubmint breaking the law benefits them, in which case those striving to make the Gubmint follow the law are now the bad guys.

Hypocrisy at its finest.

Fish on...

Todd
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