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#892987 - 04/24/14 11:30 PM Re: Puget Sound Wild Hatchery Mess [Re: Skookum]
TastySalmon Offline
Smolt

Registered: 04/16/14
Posts: 77
Loc: Lake Samish
Originally Posted By: Skookum
Cost: The hatcheries are also expensive, providing one of the lowest returns on investment of any public expenditure. A single hatchery steelhead harvested from the Nooksack River, has, in recent years, cost up to $2,400 to produce. On the Skagit, where it's a little better, the cost per harvested hatchery steelhead has been as high as $900. I can't imagine our non-fishing neighbors feeling very good about subsidizing a few people's recreation at this rate.


The cost to produce the fish is about $1 each.

If your calculation to determine $2400 is based upon the number of adult fish returning that are harvested only by anglers, then this number might be true, if you didn't account for hatchery escapement and tribally harvested fish. I would wager that the amount of money spent by all anglers targeting these fish is much higher than the cost estimate, even by your standards.

Honestly I can't think of many government services that have ROI, so I have to question why you bring ROI up in the first place.

Originally Posted By: Skookum
Science: Every major, peer-reviewed scientific study in the last decade has shown clearly that the presence of hatchery fish is a powerful detriment to wild fish recovery. When you ask WFC to spend money on "real science" or studies, I would argue the evidence is already there.Skookum


There are many major peer-reviewed studies which contradict the studies you bring up. "Every study" is a far stretch, even for a WFC employee such as your self.

Originally Posted By: Skookum
Habitat: According to recent surveys, the returns of wild fish are far below the carrying capacity of available spawning and rearing habitat in many Puget Sound rivers. While habitat has been damaged, it isn't the reason we have so few wild fish returning.


We've lost 90% of the historic spawning and rearing areas in the Skagit and over 85% in the Nooksack; most PS systems have experienced the same degradation. To make the claim that the habitat is fine makes me want to smack my head on my keyboard. To suggest that everything in the habitat is fine and dandy is nothing more than a cop-out. Everyone who is involved in some way with recovery programs - government or not - understands that habitat is the primary limiting factor. Every WRIA document confirms that habitat condition is the primary limiting factor in every single region.

We know you want hatcheries gone, but don't pretend the habitat quality is fine so you can fulfill your desires. Doing so sends a bad message and it puts habitat protection and improvements in terrible positions.

The habitat is capable of supporting exactly as many natural origin fish reside in it. If carrying capacity is not being met, then the number of natural origin recruits is lacking. This is not a function of introgression, it's a function of poor survival whether its redd scour or juvenile mortality in the salt. I'm not making the case that redd scour is necessarily an issue, but I'm bring it up to show that mortality occurs at every stage of a fishes life.

Originally Posted By: Skookum
Proof: When Mt. St. Helens errupted, for all intents and purposes, it destroyed the Toutle River habitat with enormous flows of superheated ash and mud. The state abandoned its hatchery plants for this very reason. And yet, within seven years, there were more wild winter steelhead spawning in the Toutle than in any other lower Columbia tributary. As soon as DFW saw this and decided to "help" Mother Nature with renewed hatchery supplementation, the wild population crashed.


I'm not very familiar with the Toutle, but looking at various documents on the Toutle, I have to question your assessment. For starters, escapement data was lacking. Second, there appears to be no differentiation between hatchery and natural fish in what surveys did occur. Third, what decent returns may have been experienced also occurred elsewhere.

Correlation does not equal causation.

Originally Posted By: Skookum
Proof: On the Salmon River in Oregon, the wild coho run had dwindled to a handful of returning spawners under decades of heavy hatchery supplementation. When the hatchery program was cancelled, the wild coho rebounded spectacularly (and immediately) coming back 3,500 strong within, I believe, less than four years.


Ahh, the famous "oregon coho" argument. It's easy to point blame at the hatcheries, but there are some facts which you and others prefer to ignore: a 90% reduction in marine harvest of those very stocks and greatly improved ocean conditions. Don't you think that a 90% reduction in harvest would vastly improve population size alone?

Again, correlation does not equal causation, but many in your camp seem intent on extrapolating far beyond reason. It's very easy to make extravagant correlations with fisheries data especially when only 2 or 3 sets of sequential data exist.

Originally Posted By: Skookum
Proof: Before the hatchery program on the Skagit ramped up to the massive plants we see today, the HARVEST of winter steelhead was frequently more than 20,000 fish per year. As the hatchery plants increased, instead of seeing more fish return, the downward spiral began. Today, the thought of harvesting 20,000 winter steelhead from the Skagit is beyond belief--that number represents far more than the total returns of hatchery and wild fish combined. Consider these numbers when you assess the quality of the fishery we have after decades of hatchery "supplementation."


I think your figures are on the high side, but 12,000 harvested fish at the peak certainly wasn't responsible.

Do you think that exorbitant harvest may have played a role in decreasing performance of the natural population? Part of me says yes.

What was it that I said before... oh yeah -- correlation does not equal causation. Other populations in the Skagit followed a similar path as natural steelhead. Is that to say that hatchery steelhead caused the decline of chum and coho? Or, can we conclude that detrimental factors affected all populations similarly?

Originally Posted By: Skookum
Conclusion: Sure, we can continue to blame ocean conditions and plastic ingestion (neither of which we can do much about in the near term) or lack of freshwater habitat (not true) or pollution in the Sound, or commercial harvest, or tribal gillnets...but it's entirely possible, and even likely, that it's our hatcheries themselves that are causing the lack of fish.


OK, let's keep trashing the environment. Let's shut down hatcheries and see what happens. You might as well just say "let's keep shitting on the environment and everything will be fine, because it's just the hatchery fish causing problems."

I'm seeing a really fascinating paradigm shift occurring lately. The people who would typically consider themselves environmentalist but want hatcheries gone are saying environmental conditions are fine, it's just the hatcheries suppressing recovery. Other the other hand, the rednecks who supported hatchery production all along because they want to whack and stack fish are coming around and saying we need hatcheries until we restore habitat because the habitat sucks. This assessment is of course not intended offense against pro-habitat rednecks.

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#892988 - 04/24/14 11:33 PM Re: Puget Sound Wild Hatchery Mess [Re: Todd]
TastySalmon Offline
Smolt

Registered: 04/16/14
Posts: 77
Loc: Lake Samish
Originally Posted By: Todd
It's looking more like 180k released in the Skykomish, all therest put in lakes or destroyed, $45k in legal fees to the WFC, and an agreement to not sue again for 2 years.

I hope WDFW/NOAA-F can get it together, and soon.

Fish on...

Todd


A little bird told me the legal fees will be paid with fishing license fee funds.

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#892989 - 04/24/14 11:49 PM Re: Puget Sound Wild Hatchery Mess [Re: TastySalmon]
NickD90 Offline
Shooting Instructor for hire

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 7260
Loc: Snohomish, WA
Of course it will be paid by us. Its the government. They ain't cuttin' their own pay to cover.
_________________________
“If the military were fighting for our freedom, they would be storming Capitol Hill”. – FleaFlickr02

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#892991 - 04/25/14 12:02 AM Re: Puget Sound Wild Hatchery Mess [Re: NickD90]
pijon Offline
Smolt

Registered: 04/19/14
Posts: 81
Loc: washington
I am not a habitat restoring redneck, but I am willing to learn. I am really starting to like rednecks. It will be interesting when they do end up closing some hatcheries or eliminating plants in PS and the fish don't respond.

What will be the excuse?

If we can't fish in Puget Sound, who would care if they took the 150 million they spend on habitat in PS and send it to the columbia basin. Not the fisherman, cause there won't be any.

When I put on my tinfoil hat, I see peta in the behind the curtain here.

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#892992 - 04/25/14 12:08 AM Re: Puget Sound Wild Hatchery Mess [Re: NickD90]
AP a.k.a. Kaiser D Offline
Hippie

Registered: 01/31/02
Posts: 4533
Loc: B'ham
Originally Posted By: TastySalmon

I'm seeing a really fascinating paradigm shift occurring lately. The people who would typically consider themselves environmentalist but want hatcheries gone are saying environmental conditions are fine, it's just the hatcheries suppressing recovery. Other the other hand, the rednecks who supported hatchery production all along because they want to whack and stack fish are coming around and saying we need hatcheries until we restore habitat because the habitat sucks. This assessment is of course not intended offense against pro-habitat rednecks.



I find that aspect of this situation fascinating as well. Seeing the "rednecks who supported hatchery production all along because they want to whack and stack fish", as you put it, ideologically aligned with the tribes is odd.

I look forward to the state getting THEIR legal fees paid one day.



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#892998 - 04/25/14 12:43 AM Re: Puget Sound Wild Hatchery Mess [Re: AP a.k.a. Kaiser D]
Skookum Offline
Fry

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 31
Loc: Seattle, WA
Okay, this is an honest question: How many of you consider the current state of winter steelhead fishing on Puget Sound rivers a "quality experience?"

I'm serious, because the answer to this question would explain a lot. To me, what we have today is a poor excuse for steelhead fishing--the run size, the compressed timing, the speed at which Chambers Creek fish rush to the hatchery outlet holes, the average size and condition of the fish themselves...all a tiny shadow of what they could and should be.

And it's not like we can just hang onto what we have, which is what it appears many on this board would like to do. The hatchery returns are trending toward zero. Rivers are frequently closed just to get the few fish they need for hatchery spawning. The original run of Chambers Creek is extinct. The more smolts we release, the fewer adults--hatchery and wild--we get back. If we stick with what we're doing, we'll be expecting a different outcome right up until there's no Puget Sound winter steelhead at all.

TastySalmon: The cost cited for N. Fork Nooksack hatchery winter steelhead is a "per harvested adult" cost based on simple math and the WDFW's own information.

I am not a WFC employee, but rather, a lifelong steelheader who is fed up with the current state of our fisheries. If you have "many peer-reviewed studies which contradict" the studies I cited, please list them here. I would love to see them.

I never, ever said "habitat is fine and dandy," and I am not copping out. I merely stated that we are below carrying capacity already on many of the rivers from a habitat standpoint, so that isn't the limiting factor.

I do not "want hatcheries gone" out of principle, I have just read through the science and understand that there's a good chance they are the primary cause of our declining fisheries. What I want is good steelhead fishing.

Anyway, I will stop trying to refute your arguments one by one here...I look forward to your response and the citing of contradictory studies. Again, my only agenda is to regain quality steelhead fishing opportunities in the near and longterm future. I am willing to "risk" the current state of fishing to help ensure that my kids and theirs have a chance at quality, self-sustaining fisheries in the future.

Skookum

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#892999 - 04/25/14 12:47 AM Re: Puget Sound Wild Hatchery Mess [Re: AP a.k.a. Kaiser D]
pijon Offline
Smolt

Registered: 04/19/14
Posts: 81
Loc: washington
I have been ideologically aligned with the tribes for about 30 years. Soon as I met some of my fishing counterparts.

And my support of the tribes gets reinforced everyday as I study restoration projects and out of the box thinking to restore salmon to places where they haven't been in decades. It is always the tribes directly involved or entirely in charge of these projects.

And since the WDFW has had such severe budget cuts, it has been the tribes that have stepped up and written checks to keep programs afloat. But we never hear about these things on the news. Nor do they get coverage in sportmans magazines.

Its easy to understand. For the tribes, the salmon are religion. For the state, its just a job.

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#893000 - 04/25/14 12:57 AM Re: Puget Sound Wild Hatchery Mess [Re: Skookum]
5 * General Evo Offline
Lord of the Chums

Registered: 03/29/14
Posts: 6825
no way in hell are hatcheries the prime reason wild Steelhead populations are in decline...

even the WFC themselves, on their own page, states that "habitat loss, over harvest, predation" ect are all factors in wild Steelhead decline..

the WFC chose to go the easy route, and just sue the WDFW for being idiots like they sometimes, if not usually are, and have accomplished NOTHING...

the Natives also plant Steelhead out of their hatcheries, why didnt they sue them?

because the Natives would mop the floor with them, and probably run them out of everything they are trying to do...

going after 1 thing, will do nothing.. you have to address all aspects of the challenge, to fulfill it... and if you dont like traveling say 10-20 minutes from your house, to enjoy fishing, being in the open air and woods, and just being away from the bullsh!t, well, your wish has been granted.... once they close, they will never open again, not in my life, your life, your kids life, or maybe even beyond that...

they killed Steelhead fishing on the Cedar YEARS ago, my dad liked to fish it in the 70s, and said it used to be a decent to good river.. yet it hasnt been open, hasnt been netted, and wheres it at?

the same place it was when they closed it...

this isnt the answer, this is another kink in the chain to do what people want to happen, and thats to see better fishing opportunities, and fish returning...

for now, we have lost...
_________________________
BLM IS A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION
ANTIFA IS A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION


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#893002 - 04/25/14 01:08 AM Re: Puget Sound Wild Hatchery Mess [Re: 5 * General Evo]
Bent Metal Offline
Carcass

Registered: 01/09/14
Posts: 2312
Loc: Sky River(WA) Clearwater(Id)
The economy doesn't rely on steelhead fishing in pugetropolis. Go to any small town on a productive steelhead river(outside WA) and see hotels, diners, tackle shops full. Nobody gives two sh**ts about steelhead in suburbia because they have no economic value. The Sky and Skagit valley 30yrs ago things were a lot different. Most of the hardcore steelheaders have moved on from these places because the writing was on the wall a decade ago. The hatchery runs and fish are an absolute joke, I hope they stop planting all chambers fish. When it shuts down, it will be for good; like the cedar, Nisqually, etc.. Humpy fisherman we are
_________________________




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#893005 - 04/25/14 01:31 AM Re: Puget Sound Wild Hatchery Mess [Re: Bent Metal]
pijon Offline
Smolt

Registered: 04/19/14
Posts: 81
Loc: washington
The ceder is open to catch and release only. And it has become a problem with poaching. And someone if they were a real low life, they could file their own lawsuit and close it to catch and release citing sections of the ESA.
This is going to be a race to zero. Zero fishing, zero catch and release fishing, especially over wild stocks.

The whole thing is just foolish. We are going to do peta's job for them.

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#893006 - 04/25/14 01:48 AM Re: Puget Sound Wild Hatchery Mess [Re: pijon]
pijon Offline
Smolt

Registered: 04/19/14
Posts: 81
Loc: washington
Here is a study about chinook and coho recolonizing newly open water above Landsburg. It only one study on one body of water. They allowed the hatchery strays to spawn with the wild fish. This was done by city of Seattle with multiple partners. They have no dog in this fight.
This is the powerpoint presentation.

http://www.rco.wa.gov/documents/SalmonConference/presentations/WednesdayAMAnderson.pdf
Overall, allowing the hatchery females to spawn in 2003 - 2005 more
than doubled (2.7x) the total number of second generation recruits

The actual paper is Anderson et al 2012

Maybe the most important thing here is this is a very small population of fish and the wild males outnumbered the hatchery males about 3 to 1 and all males outnumbered the females about the same margin.

So a male chinook swam up the river to spawn and the only females left were those scrawny hatchery females. Sort of like you on a bar after last call.

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#893007 - 04/25/14 01:49 AM Re: Puget Sound Wild Hatchery Mess [Re: pijon]
5 * General Evo Offline
Lord of the Chums

Registered: 03/29/14
Posts: 6825
the Cedar is open a couple months during the summer for trout fishing... there are maybe 1 or 2 Steelhead in that river during that time if any at all... it closes at the end of August like it has since it was opened back up...

yeah, poaching is an issue, but it is everywhere else as well, even when its open, but yes its still a problem...

see how trying to eliminate 1 thing, doesnt fix the problem?
_________________________
BLM IS A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION
ANTIFA IS A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION


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#893008 - 04/25/14 02:07 AM Re: Puget Sound Wild Hatchery Mess [Re: 5 * General Evo]
pijon Offline
Smolt

Registered: 04/19/14
Posts: 81
Loc: washington
According to the biologists, the rainbow trout in the cedar river are genetically identical to the steelhead. They just don't migrate to the salt. That population collapsed a few years after it was closed. I think they have given up on the steelhead in the cedar. A couple redds and less than half a dozen fish counted and its pretty much over.

And until the Puget Sound Steelhead plan is done in a few years, there is no funds or direction to do anything.

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#893010 - 04/25/14 02:21 AM Re: Puget Sound Wild Hatchery Mess [Re: pijon]
5 * General Evo Offline
Lord of the Chums

Registered: 03/29/14
Posts: 6825
the rainbow trout in every river are genetically identical to steelhead.. one is anadromous the other is resident.. same DNA, same genetics, same habitat, just one leaves...

drive down Maple Valley Hwy at 6am on a nice December/January morning, just on the left side, pay attention, well before and close to when you get past the tressel near the Texaco... the WDFW could write 10-20 tickets right in that area... then theres Landsburg...
_________________________
BLM IS A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION
ANTIFA IS A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION


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#893011 - 04/25/14 02:33 AM Re: Puget Sound Wild Hatchery Mess [Re: 5 * General Evo]
pijon Offline
Smolt

Registered: 04/19/14
Posts: 81
Loc: washington
If I see anyone fishing the river in the winter I will be calling WDFW. This is a river where someone may actually catch the last migrating steelhead if they haven't already. Pretty sad.

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#893027 - 04/25/14 11:13 AM Re: Puget Sound Wild Hatchery Mess [Re: pijon]
Backtrollin Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 10/18/07
Posts: 174
Loc: Duvall, WA
"Okay, this is an honest question: How many of you consider the current state of winter steelhead fishing on Puget Sound rivers a "quality experience?" " -Skookum

I do.

I have fished both wild and hatchery fish my entire life in the Snoqualmie System. In my mind the experience of hatchery Steelhead fishing is a totally different experience then fishing wild Steelhead.

Hatchery fish are small, yes, but who cares, so are summer run. The December fishing on the Snoqualmie provides a quality fishery that's local. I average roughly five fish-on per trip in December and if I'm lucky I will land and keep three or four. Not a bad day in my book. The experience is still fun. The river is pristine, the fish fight good for six pounders and I get to go when ever time allows. The alternative is not fishing.

When the wild fish were available, I would shift gears and get into catch and release mode. I would fish different sections of the river, and use different tactics. In fact it was like having two different seasons and two different sets of expectations.

So for me, the hatchery experience is excellent.

Skookum, why are you hiding your name and affiliation?

I wont hide mine.

My name is Ray Gombiski and I enjoy catching hatchery Steelhead.

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#893047 - 04/25/14 12:47 PM Re: Puget Sound Wild Hatchery Mess [Re: Backtrollin]
BEINFORMED Offline
Alevin

Registered: 04/18/14
Posts: 11
Hi All,

No good news on the lawsuit with WFC and the WDFW. There was a negotiated agreement earlier today that
700,000 steelhead smolt will be released into the lakes and about 250,000 smolt will be released into the Snohomish river system.
The WFC also agreed to defer any further legal action on the lawsuit filed April 1,2014 for two years. WDFW will also pay the legal fees incurred by WFC.

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#893054 - 04/25/14 02:04 PM Re: Puget Sound Wild Hatchery Mess [Re: BEINFORMED]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7411
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
It will be very interesting to see what WDFW does with the fish. They have to go in lakes with no outlets, otherwise they will leave. They will also, if they were reared at all on surface water, have to go into lakes in the Fish Health Management Zone as the hatchery. Which could mean that the Nooksack fish stay in that watershed, the Skagit there, etc. Any deviations from the disease policy will require Tribal concurrence. As I recall, too, that any tribe can oppose, not just the local one(s).

More fun and games.

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