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#892773 - 04/23/14 03:50 PM Re: Puget Sound Hatchery Steelhead Petition [Re: chukar14]
rln Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 05/31/02
Posts: 329
Loc: anywhere in B.C. sometimes wa...
here in BC we did the same thing on vancouver island a couple of decades ago. Stopped the hatchery plants, closed the rivers and all that has happened is more habitat loss, no young or new anglers, rivers remain partially or completely closed and access loss on those streams that did reopen. Returns are still poor and the only people out there that care about it now are groups called "Streamkeepers".
If you only fish puget sound streams it might be time to sell your gear while it still has some value

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#892774 - 04/23/14 03:51 PM Re: Puget Sound Hatchery Steelhead Petition [Re: chukar14]
Smalma Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 2844
Loc: Marysville
Double Haul -
I have spend decades championing wild steelhead and it is issues like this that drives me nuts!

I'm all for science driven management and in the case it is clear that the "science" shows that in the Puget Sound region that much of the potential impacts from hatchery fish on the wild population has been addressed.

Consider the following; In WFC's suit they claim that in recent years Puget Sound wild steelhead numbers have fallen to 3% of what they may have been in 1850. No can argue that the steelhead's habitat in Puget Sound rivers has been trashed. The degree of those impacts has been placed at 50% to 95% of the historic productivity (the ability of a river to produce steelhead smolts). Further the average productivity today across the region is something like 20% of the historical or base level. That means the rivers that produced 10,000 adults in 1850 are now capable of producing 2,000.

In addition it is also clear that the average marine survival of steelhead smolts on reaching the salt is less than 20% of what they once were. This of course means that the 2,000 steelhead the rivers above are now producing are now producing 400 (2,000 times 0.2). Our hypothetical river with its historical steelhead run of 10,000 steelhead is now producing only 400 or 4% of what it once did.

Are those that care about our wild steelhead going to continue to allow the discussion to be focused on hatchery and harvest issue when it is clear that currently 99% of the factors driving our steelhead to only 3% of their historical levels are habitat (including hydro) and marine survival. Suits like this current one and support of those changes not only are dividing the very advocates that the steelhead resource not only needs but requires; it constantly shifts the focus away from the real limiting factors and allows those that benefit from the status quo on those issues to skate.

At some point folks have to say enough! If not steelhead fishing on Puget Sound rivers is done and they will be come museum pieces in a few of the best rivers. And oh by the way the status of steelhead in the rest of the State will some follow.

I had hoped for better.

curt


Edited by Smalma (04/23/14 04:14 PM)

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#892778 - 04/23/14 04:27 PM Re: Puget Sound Hatchery Steelhead Petition [Re: ]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7411
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Habitat destruction has to include the reduction in salmon carcass delivered biomass by 95%. As studies in Canada showed, the number of smolts increased as the nutrient level in the stream went up.

Those studies also showed that fixing habitat increased productivity. But neither one (nutrients and inorganic (structure) habitat) had anywhjere near the benefit that both did when working together.

We seem to be focused on fixing the structural habitat and ignoring the productivity that spawning salmon provided.

And before you tell me that a million pinks in the Skagit and/or Green had no detectable impact, the currency for nutrients is kilogrammes per square metre of stream habitat. In S Prairie Creek, where the up to about half a million pinks has shown a benefit to the wild steelhead. So, do the math. How much bigger is the Green or Skagit? That is the biomass we need to shoot for.

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#892781 - 04/23/14 04:55 PM Re: Puget Sound Hatchery Steelhead Petition [Re: Carcassman]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
The fact is that if we don't have steelhead fishing, then we don't have steelhead fishermen...and if we don't have steelhead fishermen then we will have lost almost all of anyone who cares about steelhead and steelhead streams.

We'll close the rivers, not do anything about the factors that actually really contribute to declining steelhead numbers on those closed rivers, and move on to the next system...first the steelheaders will go there, then the "let's close the rivers" crowd will be hot on their heels, and we'll do it again and again until all we have left is closed rivers with remnants of wild fish in them and no one who cares about the fish to advocate for doing something to bring the fish back.

Not a path I would choose.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#892789 - 04/23/14 06:08 PM Re: Puget Sound Hatchery Steelhead Petition [Re: Todd]
TastySalmon Offline
Smolt

Registered: 04/16/14
Posts: 77
Loc: Lake Samish
I'm sure most probably understand this already, but the future of fishing for anadromous fish in Puget Sound hinges on the outcome of this suit.

If WFC wins the claim that the ESA is being violated with hatchery production impacts then they will follow with 60-day notices for other programs in Puget Sound, state or tribal; Fall chinook, coho, chum, etc. Unfortunately nothing is safe at this point. It's hard to believe, but all hatcheries programs are at risk right now and it's not going to end with Puget Sound.

If things go this direction we likely won't even have salt water seasons for salmon other than humpies. At least we get 6 weeks for ling cod, and I hear that flounder fishing can be very fun.

Sadly, part of me wishes that WFC gets their ultimate intention fulfilled of closing hatcheries. Then, everyone can sit back and watch the same destruction of habitat and a steady flood of transplants build houses everywhere -- meanwhile the natural populations of fish that were supposed to miraculously rebound stay at the same abundance.

We already know what happens to natural populations with no hatchery population presence when we trash the environment. It happened in Europe and the British Isles, then it happened again in New England. I'd say those examples are pretty good, but the reality is, we're doing the exact same thing to the environment here as happened in those examples.

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#892798 - 04/23/14 06:30 PM Re: Puget Sound Hatchery Steelhead Petition [Re: TastySalmon]
Keta Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 03/05/00
Posts: 1092
Is there anywhere in the world that healthy runs of salmon are compatible with human civilization? I don't know of any. Why would the PNW be any different?

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#892823 - 04/23/14 08:46 PM Re: Puget Sound Hatchery Steelhead Petition [Re: Keta]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7411
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Like Todd has said over and over, the WFC suit is not about the appropriateness of hatchery fish. It is that WDFW does not have the required permit. It is a no-brainer; the law requires a permit so get it. If NOAA acts too slowly then take them to Court for their inaction.

The issue of how appropriate hatchery fish are, how to have recovery and still have meaningful fisheries (and attendant public support) are the next battleground.

And no, as Dave Montgomery described in King of Fish, dense populations of fish and people are damn close to mutually exclusive.

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#892943 - 04/24/14 05:52 PM Re: Puget Sound Hatchery Steelhead Petition [Re: ]
Keta Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 03/05/00
Posts: 1092
I hope so, but my definition of healthy is quite a bit higher than that considering what the runs were before civilization arrived here.

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