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#892893 - 04/24/14 12:31 PM Re: Puget Sound Wild Hatchery Mess [Re: Skookum]
onthewater Offline
Fry

Registered: 09/23/12
Posts: 30

Quote:
[/quote]Science: Every major, peer-reviewed scientific study in the last decade has shown clearly that the presence of hatchery fish is a powerful detriment to wild fish recovery. When you ask WFC to spend money on "real science" or studies, I would argue the evidence is already there.[quote]


Skookum,

I appreciate your input on the subject. It would be greatly appreciated if you would cite some of these scientific studies you refer to.

Reason being, this is a big complicated issue with potentially huge ramifications for the future of fishing and hatchery practice in Washington. And IMO not only for steelhead. I am trying to educate myself but haven't formed an opinion on it as there are many good anecdotal arguments for and against hatchery fish stocking in our waterways. What stands out to me is that I have yet to see any real objective science to back up any of these arguments.

No snarkiness or sarcasm intended by this post, just honestly trying to understand the issue.

Thanks to all who have weighed in on this important topic.
_________________________
Always happiest with fish scales on my face.

"Hope I die before I get old" - Pete Townshend, The Who, Musician/Singer/Songwriter and Spokesperson of a generation.

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#892894 - 04/24/14 12:58 PM Re: Puget Sound Wild Hatchery Mess [Re: onthewater]
N W Panhandler Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 01/05/07
Posts: 1560
Loc: Bremerton, Wa.
Why can Oregon do Broodstock hatcheries and Washington can not? The fishermen and women in Oregon are enjoying some great steelhead fishing and it seems to get better each year. Instead of going for the entire rainbow, just prove to sportsmen that going wild will work..........make the Nisqually happen, then maybe ..........What about the broodstock program that [b] WAS WORKING [b] on the Solduck and was supposed to be moved over to the Bogichiel..........I'm tired of paying more for less.
_________________________
A little common sense is good, more is better.
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#892896 - 04/24/14 01:25 PM Re: Puget Sound Wild Hatchery Mess [Re: N W Panhandler]
billjr64 Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 12/25/09
Posts: 141
Loc: SW WA.
Originally Posted By: N W Panhandler
Why can Oregon do Broodstock hatcheries and Washington can not? The fishermen and women in Oregon are enjoying some great steelhead fishing and it seems to get better each year. Instead of going for the entire rainbow, just prove to sportsmen that going wild will work..........make the Nisqually happen, then maybe ..........What about the broodstock program that [b] WAS WORKING [b] on the Solduck and was supposed to be moved over to the Bogichiel..........I'm tired of paying more for less.
The Sol Duc was working pretty well until they decided to make it a wild gene bank. I believe that WAS the only wild broodstock program in Wa.

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#892911 - 04/24/14 02:57 PM Re: Puget Sound Wild Hatchery Mess [Re: billjr64]
Skookum Offline
Fry

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 31
Loc: Seattle, WA
Hi All--

Thanks for the great questions and comments. I will try to address them here to the best of my ability, and cite some of the studies (good call, onthewater) that support my thinking along the way:

Pijon: You say of the wild steelhead decline, "it has nothing to do with hatchery fish," and yet, every major, peer-reviewed scientific study of the last 20 years would tend to disagree.

Here are brief summaries of some of them: Hatcheries accelerate decline of salmon and steelhead returns <Kleiss, 2004>. Hatchery fish have a clear negative impact on wild fish populations <Chilcote et al. 2011>. Hatchery smolt releases increase predation on wild smolts <Quinn, 2005> and outcompete wild juveniles for habitat and food, reducing survival rates for both <Nakano 1994, Gotceitas and Godin 1992, Berejikian et all. 1996, McMichael et al. 1999>

The proportion of hatchery fish in a given river, under ALL hatchery scenarios, has a direct, negative correlation with overall reproductive performance of wild steelhead <Chilcote et al. 2011>

BillJr: Increasing hatchery plants doesn't work. Over the last 50 years, we have steadily ramped up hatchery releases only to see steadily diminishing returns and catch rate. But don't just take my word for it:

As hatchery stocking increases, catch decreases over time <McMillan 2012, using data from WDFW and ODFW>

On Chambers Creek itself, the source of most of our winter hatchery steelhead, the state tried to stem an alarming decline in returns with increased smolt releases. This resulted in minimal adult returns, trending toward zero. The program was cancelled in 1997. <Cooper and Johnsson 1992, Elfrich 2007>

A quick glance at graphs of hatchery smolt numbers overlaid on return rates or harvest rates on the Skykomish, Skagit and other Puget Sound rivers clearly demonstrates that the more hatchery fish we put in, the fewer adults--both hatchery and wild--we get back.

NW Panhandler: Sadly, the "great fishing" on broodstock returns appears to be a short-term illusion. Over time, broodstock programs have proven themselves ineffective. A couple of reasons are that hatchery strains (Chambers Creek fish are the perfect example) are selectively bred to succeed in a domestic environment, and wild broodstock juveniles have a difficult time surviving in hatchery ponds. Snyder Creek, on the Sol Duc had an extremely low rate of juvenile survival. Broodstock programs also remove wild fish from the process of natural selection in the wild, where the genetics continue to favor survival in both freshwater and salt.

This has been the subject of many scientific studies, with remarkably similar findings: Broodstock programs do not show better returns over time than standard hatcheries, and in fact, result in the same low reproductive rate. <Chilcote et al. 2011; Beatson et al. 2011; Christie et al. 2011; etc...>

Thanks, guys, for taking the time. As before, I believe the whole not-planting-hatchery-smolts-in-Puget-Sound-this-spring decision is good news for everyone who wants a shot at steelhead fishing in their future and for their kids, and their kids. We should celebrate, and thank the Wild Fish Conservancy for their work. This is good stuff.

Skookum

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#892921 - 04/24/14 03:36 PM Re: Puget Sound Wild Hatchery Mess [Re: Skookum]
pijon Offline
Smolt

Registered: 04/19/14
Posts: 81
Loc: washington
Skookum, I said that the Salish Sea marine survival issue has nothing to do with hatchery fish. Hatchery or wild, we are losing 80% of smolts before they reach the ocean. That will preclude any recovery regardless of how much habitat restoration is done.

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#892924 - 04/24/14 03:55 PM Re: Puget Sound Wild Hatchery Mess [Re: pijon]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7410
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Not to downplay the current results of the acoustic tag studies in PS but what was the measured historic level of in-sound mortality? Not the guessed-at number, not the modeled number, but actual measured number.

Until we have that, all we know is what we are seeing now and have no way to know if that number has changed.

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#892925 - 04/24/14 03:59 PM Re: Puget Sound Wild Hatchery Mess [Re: Skookum]
FleaFlickr02 Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3313
Thanks, Skookum. That's certainly a lot of citations to support a hypothesis that there is a direct correlation between increasing hatchery plants and decreasing adult returns. While I'm convinced that hatchery introgression has a negative impact on wild steelhead, I'm not at all convinced that it's the major factor limiting steelhead returns, in Puget Sound or anywhere else.

If we truly want to see our children and granchildren fish for steelhead, we need to identify the major cause of their decline and address it to the greatest extent possible. It seems to me there's far too much we don't understand to make a decision as rash as eliminating hatchery plants from the Puget Sound region. That will result in full winter closures, and there are plenty of examples to show us that closed fisheries don't get reopened. There are also plenty of examples of how displacing anglers results in dangerous increases in pressure on other, neighboring regions that would also be closed to fishing were it not for their hatchery programs.

If you want us to fish in the future, I think it would be wise to support a more balanced approach; one that allows us to keep fishing, in some capacity, in the present.

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#892926 - 04/24/14 04:00 PM Re: Puget Sound Wild Hatchery Mess [Re: Skookum]
FleaFlickr02 Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3313
Duplicate post...


Edited by FleaFlickr02 (04/24/14 04:21 PM)

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#892938 - 04/24/14 04:44 PM Re: Puget Sound Wild Hatchery Mess [Re: Carcassman]
pijon Offline
Smolt

Registered: 04/19/14
Posts: 81
Loc: washington
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
Not to downplay the current results of the acoustic tag studies in PS but what was the measured historic level of in-sound mortality? Not the guessed-at number, not the modeled number, but actual measured number.


Until we have that, all we know is what we are seeing now and have no way to know if that number has changed.


If I had the numbers bookmarked I would post them.
I think you can find them by reading the publication on this site.
http://www.lltk.org/rebuilding-populations/salish-sea-marine-survival/overview

An easier way to understand it is to watch the video.
http://www.lltk.org/new-video-about-salish-sea-marine-survival-project-pacific-salmon-foundation

And if all else fails, send them an email and just ask.

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#892939 - 04/24/14 04:48 PM Re: Puget Sound Wild Hatchery Mess [Re: pijon]
pijon Offline
Smolt

Registered: 04/19/14
Posts: 81
Loc: washington
http://www.lltk.org/sites/default/files/pdf/SSMSP%202-Pager_FINAL_8-19.pdf

The above link has a chart of historic survival of chinook. In the publications there are graphs that break down survival in multiple regions in the northwest and it becomes obvious this is a problem endemic to PS.

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#892945 - 04/24/14 06:01 PM Re: Puget Sound Wild Hatchery Mess [Re: pijon]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
There is going to be a temporary solution that I suspect will not make anyone happy...but will be better than no solution.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#892946 - 04/24/14 06:12 PM Re: Puget Sound Wild Hatchery Mess [Re: Todd]
Backtrollin Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 10/18/07
Posts: 174
Loc: Duvall, WA
Todd - when will the solution be made public?

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#892948 - 04/24/14 06:16 PM Re: Puget Sound Wild Hatchery Mess [Re: Backtrollin]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
I do not know...soon. I'm sorry I can't say more but I was let in on the situation in confidence.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#892952 - 04/24/14 06:46 PM Re: Puget Sound Wild Hatchery Mess [Re: ]
fishbadger Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 03/06/01
Posts: 1194
Loc: Gig Harbor, WA
Does it rhyme with "shut-er-down"?

fb
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#892953 - 04/24/14 07:15 PM Re: Puget Sound Wild Hatchery Mess [Re: fishbadger]
5 * General Evo Offline
Lord of the Chums

Registered: 03/29/14
Posts: 6825
i just read from someone inside the "talks" that they have come to an agreement to only release 250k of the 900k smolts, and they are going into the Snohomish system.. the other 650k smolts that were going to be released in the rest of the rivers, are going to be disposed of...


so why only the Snoho system?

so Kurt Beardslee can still have fishing opportunities, close to his house, as he lives in Duvall?

2016/2017 is going to be a sad couple years for the rest of us... i dont know about you guys, but im not driving 2 and a half hours to fish the Snoho or Sky... i will go to the coast..

thanks WDFW and WFC, for screwing the rest of us anglers, because 1, you werent smart enough to do what was needed, and the WFC for just being stupid tree hugging, decieving, jerks....

thanks alot....
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#892957 - 04/24/14 07:49 PM Re: Puget Sound Wild Hatchery Mess [Re: 5 * General Evo]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
I think what you read on facebook may be a bit premature.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#892958 - 04/24/14 08:03 PM Re: Puget Sound Wild Hatchery Mess [Re: Todd]
5 * General Evo Offline
Lord of the Chums

Registered: 03/29/14
Posts: 6825
you know more about the internal cogwork on this situation than i do, so im sorry..

but that actually makes me worry even more...


what really upsets me, is that they just announced a little bit ago, that they would begin releasing Steelhead smolts out of the Voights hatchery again pretty shortly... i would have loved to have a winter stream to fish thats 10 minutes from my house... but that aint happening now..

this whole situation makes me sick, on all sides of the court..


sorry Todd..
_________________________
BLM IS A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION
ANTIFA IS A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION


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#892960 - 04/24/14 08:05 PM Re: Puget Sound Wild Hatchery Mess [Re: Todd]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
It's looking more like 180k released in the Skykomish, all therest put in lakes or destroyed, $45k in legal fees to the WFC, and an agreement to not sue again for 2 years.

I hope WDFW/NOAA-F can get it together, and soon.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#892972 - 04/24/14 09:49 PM Re: Puget Sound Wild Hatchery Mess [Re: Todd]
Matt S. Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 02/08/00
Posts: 273
Loc: Northwest
To clarify, this is just for chambers creek releases? Summer runs are unaffected at the moment?

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#892986 - 04/24/14 11:29 PM Re: Puget Sound Wild Hatchery Mess [Re: Matt S.]
pijon Offline
Smolt

Registered: 04/19/14
Posts: 81
Loc: washington
A message board with anonymous posters is maybe the weakest source for information. Unless you get links.

I would welcome any settlement just to get this over with. Lets hear what it is and then complain.

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