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#904261 - 08/28/14 04:56 PM If it bites, it dies...
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12766
Ocean rules to relax.... AGAIN.

Any two salmon is fair game starting Labor Day!

http://wdfw.wa.gov/news/aug2814a/
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"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#904282 - 08/28/14 07:24 PM Re: If it bites, it dies... [Re: ]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12766
Charter fleet makes it to Labor Day without consuming the entire quota/guideline... MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#904297 - 08/28/14 08:32 PM Re: If it bites, it dies... [Re: ]
willametteriveroutlaw Offline
Spawner

Registered: 10/26/02
Posts: 918
Loc: Idaho
Originally Posted By: 1LeggedMan
Bummer.............(Cue wild salmon crying).


Not really, its a win in the end for wild fish. With a 50%+ mortality rate and a 2 to 1 wild to hatch ratio at best and way worse in other fisheries. Wilds will be better off.
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#904317 - 08/28/14 09:21 PM Re: If it bites, it dies... [Re: willametteriveroutlaw]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
If the management model was designed, based on the best data available, that the runsize forecast would result in a certain catch then what does not reaching that level say about the run?

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#904321 - 08/28/14 09:29 PM Re: If it bites, it dies... [Re: Carcassman]
topwater Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 06/28/00
Posts: 452
Loc: Rocky Mountain High
i keep reading about this 50% mortality for ocean silvers. Does anyone have any data to back up this number? I have seen high mortality studies on fish right in the estuaries, but have not seen any studies for feeding fish offshore.

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#904377 - 08/29/14 08:43 AM Re: If it bites, it dies... [Re: topwater]
Spoonmeister Offline
Fry

Registered: 07/28/14
Posts: 27
Da faq I just read?!!!

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#904378 - 08/29/14 09:04 AM Re: If it bites, it dies... [Re: Spoonmeister]
Smalma Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 2844
Loc: Marysville
Topwater -

I believe it still is the case that for off shore fisheries that PFMC recommends a release mortality rate of 14% for coho. In addition there is a recommendation that an additional drop-off (fish lost) mortality rate of 5% be added.

Curt

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#904380 - 08/29/14 09:46 AM Re: If it bites, it dies... [Re: Smalma]
topwater Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 06/28/00
Posts: 452
Loc: Rocky Mountain High
Thanks Curt. In my years of participating in NOF I never heard such high numbers talked about even when selective fisheries on salmon were a new deal.

Seems like a 5:1 ratio is what we should be discussing, not 2:1, when it comes to changes in regulations like this.



Edited by topwater (08/29/14 09:46 AM)

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#904385 - 08/29/14 10:56 AM Re: If it bites, it dies... [Re: topwater]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
Hmmm... I've often said I like this style of management for ocean Coho (get first two fish in the box and get off the water, rather than weeding through 10 or 20 wild fish, AT LEAST 20% of which will die, for two clipped fish), but I have reservations on this one.

First, I would encourage our managers to consider Carcassman's question, though I know they won't. Second, two wild Chinook? In waters holding a run of Chinook (Chehalis) that will not have an inside sport fishery on them due to escapement concerns? Finally, how about the NOR Humptulips Coho? How many of the already assumed to be underescaped fish from that run will be harvested in Areas 2, 3, and 4?

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#904402 - 08/29/14 12:37 PM Re: If it bites, it dies... [Re: FleaFlickr02]
Dogfish Offline
Poodle Smolt

Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 10979
Loc: McCleary, WA
The charter boats I talk with, and I bank about 10, say that allowing retention of wild silvers will certainly save a lot of fish. Figure 10-25 rods fishing 8 hours on a single boat, releasing as many as 50 fish in a day. Multiply that by 20-30 charter boats on any given day. Multiply that by 120 days. That is a ton of silvers. Also, retaining the silvers lessens the impacts on the wild chinook, as the charters really don't play the catch and release game with wild fish.


Edited by Dogfish (08/29/14 12:38 PM)
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#904403 - 08/29/14 12:40 PM Re: If it bites, it dies... [Re: FleaFlickr02]
milkBottleMikey Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 478
Loc: Spawn Ranch
Doesn't that mean it's ok to keep an unclipped chinook in Willapa? We feed a 30lb plus nate to a seal on the last set of good tides.
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#904408 - 08/29/14 01:09 PM Re: If it bites, it dies... [Re: milkBottleMikey]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
I don't think this rule change affects the harbors; just the open ocean areas. So, it's okay to kill North River and Chehalis River wild Chinook in the ocean, but not in the estuaries.

Is that right?

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#904413 - 08/29/14 01:39 PM Re: If it bites, it dies... [Re: FleaFlickr02]
Dogfish Offline
Poodle Smolt

Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 10979
Loc: McCleary, WA
The potential impact in the ocean is a lot less than if the fishing took place at the mouth of those streams. Wild kings have been legal since July.
_________________________
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They call me POODLE SMOLT!

The Discover Pass is brought to you by your friends at the CCA.

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#904414 - 08/29/14 01:42 PM Re: If it bites, it dies... [Re: FleaFlickr02]
Smalma Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 2844
Loc: Marysville
Dogfish -
Not sure that going to wild fish retention is saving wild fish.

Let's consider your example and assume is catching only coho that each charter is fishing 12 rods (you suggested 10 to 25 rods) and they are releasing 50 unclipped coho to catch their 24 clipped fish. As talked about earlier with a 20% release mortality 10 of those released would die.

However that boat would have caught 74 coho (24 clipped and 50 unclipped) yielding a clip rate of about 35%. During a fishery with wild retention the boat would land the same 24 coho of which 65% or 15.6 would be unclipped. Yielding a unclipped mortality in the wild retention fishery roughly 150% of that in the mark selective fishery/vessel. When expanded to the overall fleet over a period of time the numbers rapidly become a concern.

Something else to consider with much faster fishing to limit the boat it becomes easier to book a second trip increasing the impacts on the wild fish.

Curt

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#904416 - 08/29/14 01:53 PM Re: If it bites, it dies... [Re: Smalma]
Dogfish Offline
Poodle Smolt

Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 10979
Loc: McCleary, WA
They would have less of an impact on the fishery as a whole, hatchery and wild fish. Fewer fish hooked overall, and minimal release mortality. There is no way to control whether a hatchery or wild fish bite.

None of the charter boats in Westport run second trips, even if they hit the dock early.

_________________________
"Give me the anger, fish! Give me the anger!"

They call me POODLE SMOLT!

The Discover Pass is brought to you by your friends at the CCA.

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#904420 - 08/29/14 01:56 PM Re: If it bites, it dies... [Re: Dogfish]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
Originally Posted By: Dogfish
The potential impact in the ocean is a lot less than if the fishing took place at the mouth of those streams. Wild kings have been legal since July.


I think that's certainly true, but the question I'm asking is why it's somehow okay to kill endangered fish (North River stock, if any still exist), or fish that are chronically underescaped (Chehalis Chinook and Humptulips NOR Coho) ANYWHERE.

I suppose for wild Coho, as a whole, this rule change will have a net benefit. For underescaped or even endangered fish, it's another fin in the grave.

Of course, whatever dies in the WA coastal fisheries is a drop in the bucket compared to what gets harvested off Alaska and BC, but I'm not sure we should let that be justification for joining in on the blood bath.

I'm convinced that open ocean fisheries are the number one limiting factor in salmon conservation. Whether you're talking about harvest or habitat, or anything besides blocked fish passage, it all comes down to not enough fish on the gravel at some point. Ever notice the few places that still have decent runs of wild steelhead also have healthy runs of salmon? Maybe there's something to that....

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#904422 - 08/29/14 01:57 PM Re: If it bites, it dies... [Re: FleaFlickr02]
Dogfish Offline
Poodle Smolt

Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 10979
Loc: McCleary, WA
Then give up fishing if you don't want to have any impact on the fishery.
_________________________
"Give me the anger, fish! Give me the anger!"

They call me POODLE SMOLT!

The Discover Pass is brought to you by your friends at the CCA.

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#904425 - 08/29/14 02:30 PM Re: If it bites, it dies... [Re: Dogfish]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
I never said my impact was zero, but I'm confident it's negligible, especially as regards endangered species. If everyone fished the way I do, we wouldn't need to have these conversations. Not trying to sound superior. Just pointing out that not all fishing is as destructive to the resource as mixed stock, open ocean fisheries.

For the record, I don't hate on recreational charters. I just don't think they (or ANYONE else) should be allowed to draw from accounts that might be in the red.

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#904440 - 08/29/14 04:09 PM Re: If it bites, it dies... [Re: FleaFlickr02]
cohoangler Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 12/29/99
Posts: 1611
Loc: Vancouver, Washington
FF - Good thoughts. Your argument points out the value of terminal fisheries in freshwater, as opposed to open ocean fisheries. When harvest occurs close to the natal stream, there is much better control over how many are harvested, and how many are allowed on the spawning grounds. Conversely, open ocean harvest results in taking fish that may be on the brink of extinction, but nobody will know since those fish cannot be identified by stock when they're in the ocean. Closing all ocean fisheries for salmon would solve this problem.

Whether that is a realistic outcome is a different question......

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#904441 - 08/29/14 04:10 PM Re: If it bites, it dies... [Re: FleaFlickr02]
RogueFanatic Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 07/31/08
Posts: 348
Loc: Kitsap Co.
"Negligible" x 1000s of fishers = Not Negligible?

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