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#904445 - 08/29/14 04:38 PM Re: If it bites, it dies... [Re: cohoangler]
Eric Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 3513
Originally Posted By: cohoangler
FF - Good thoughts. Your argument points out the value of terminal fisheries in freshwater, as opposed to open ocean fisheries. When harvest occurs close to the natal stream, there is much better control over how many are harvested, and how many are allowed on the spawning grounds. Conversely, open ocean harvest results in taking fish that may be on the brink of extinction, but nobody will know since those fish cannot be identified by stock when they're in the ocean. Closing all ocean fisheries for salmon would solve this problem.

Whether that is a realistic outcome is a different question......



What I've been saying for years. Agree 100%.

Not to mention the basins that do the habitat work, protect wild stocks and raise fish would reap the benefits of their work directly………..not a distant fishery hundreds of miles north of us up the coast (Canada/Alaska) snaring 75-90% of some runs (Chehalis River anyone?).

I really struggle with these interception rates by our neighbors to the north. Begs the question of why do the work and commit millions, if not billions, of dollars to conservation if we only get the crumbs?

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#904449 - 08/29/14 04:53 PM Re: If it bites, it dies... [Re: FleaFlickr02]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12766
Anyone who believes only 1 in 5 coho die from a H&R encounter has not fished over enough coho to have a valid opinion.... or they're just in denial.

Tidewater coho have at least 70% mortality (all comers) and at least 50% with the best handling practices.

Handling mortality WITHOUT a hooking event is 40% alone.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#904452 - 08/29/14 05:05 PM Re: If it bites, it dies... [Re: RogueFanatic]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
Originally Posted By: RogueFanatic
"Negligible" x 1000s of fishers = Not Negligible?


What I harvest in a given year, x 1000s, would still amount to less than 10% of the combined impact of open ocean fisheries. Not negligible, but far from overwhelming for healthy stocks of salmon.

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#904453 - 08/29/14 05:13 PM Re: If it bites, it dies... [Re: eyeFISH]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
Originally Posted By: eyeFISH
Anyone who believes only 1 in 5 coho die from a H&R encounter has not fished over enough coho to have a valid opinion.... or they're just in denial.

Tidewater coho have at least 70% mortality (all comers) and at least 50% with the best handling practices.

Handling mortality WITHOUT a hooking event is 40% alone.


My very limited experience on the big, blue pond lands me in firm agreement with your assessment, which is why I like the "first two salmon" approach in principle, but when endangered stocks enter the picture, the practice gets a bit sticky.

Like I said, I still think this is good for Coho as a species, but I'm not sure it's good for all stocks.

Two wild Chinook, no matter how many Columbia fish are out there, seems hugely irresponsible to me, given that there aren't enough Chehalis Chinook to support any inside fisheries. In addition, release mortality on kings is generally accepted to be much lower than Coho in the ocean, so I don't think the argument that we're saving wild Chinook with this plan holds water. Willful overharvest, by all user groups, needs to stop if these fish are to stand a chance.


Edited by FleaFlickr02 (08/29/14 05:37 PM)

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#904454 - 08/29/14 05:13 PM Re: If it bites, it dies... [Re: eyeFISH]
JustBecause Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 07/18/08
Posts: 237
Originally Posted By: eyeFISH


".. .Handling mortality WITHOUT a hooking event is 40% alone."


What does that mean?

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#904464 - 08/29/14 06:00 PM Re: If it bites, it dies... [Re: JustBecause]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12766
ADFG researchers doing mark recapture studies on coho lost 40% of the cohort just touching them.

Imagine what the added physiologic stress of a hooking event and frantic struggle would do to those numbers.

COHO = HORRIBLE C&R species before their scales have set.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#904471 - 08/29/14 06:46 PM Re: If it bites, it dies... [Re: eyeFISH]
Smalma Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 2844
Loc: Marysville
I believe we are talking about hook and release mortalities in the open ocean. The studies Dr. eyeFISH refer to are from Alaskan studies involving fish handled in the estuary. From a number of studies it is clear that before or once they move above the estuary (scales become set) the handling mortality is significantly lower.

For those that may have an interest here is a link to the summary upon which NMFC based its recommendations -

http://swfsc.noaa.gov/publications/FED/00080.pdf

I did find it interest in the 1993 WDFW et al study the tribes were co-authors. Does anyone think that tribes or other critic of selective fishing (most states) would buy into finds/rates that are not sufficiently supported by the data?

Curt

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#904472 - 08/29/14 06:50 PM Re: If it bites, it dies... [Re: eyeFISH]
topwater Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 06/28/00
Posts: 452
Loc: Rocky Mountain High
Originally Posted By: eyeFISH


Tidewater coho have at least 70% mortality (all comers) and at least 50% with the best handling practices.

Handling mortality WITHOUT a hooking event is 40% alone.


what does tidewater mortality have to do with ocean fisheries nowhere near tidewater?

imo, the biggest killer of coho mortality wise is the double hook rig. i can get more bleeders in one day of fishing a two hook rig than an entire season catching 20+ coho a day on single hook barbless flies. single hook and no netting would reduce mortality by a massive number.


Edited by topwater (08/29/14 06:51 PM)

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#904476 - 08/29/14 07:36 PM Re: If it bites, it dies... [Re: topwater]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12766
Ocean coho don't fair much better than estuary fish.

Hard to ignore the string of floater coho along an ocean rip I fished off of Long Beach last week.

And they don't have to be bleeders to perish. Hell just looking at the dam things cross-ways is enough to make 'em die.

Undisputed whimp of the salmonid world when it comes to walking away intact from a fight.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#904479 - 08/29/14 08:08 PM Re: If it bites, it dies... [Re: ]
topwater Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 06/28/00
Posts: 452
Loc: Rocky Mountain High
funny that the research curt posted showed lower mortality for coho than chinook.

you can point to a string of floating coho and i can point to years of fishing neah bay and seeing a total of less than five floaters. the gear you fish is just as important, and i hope all of you so concerned with wild coho and mortality are fishing a single barbless hook, and not the common two hook, coho mangling rig.

of course i think having to release a gob of coho to get two hatchery fish gets a bit ridiculous when it takes 20-30 releases to get one hatchery fish. in those cases (which happen more frequently imo inside the strait) a move to wild kill may be appropriate.... except that many people would not just kill their first two coho and head in.

many anglers will still high grade their salmon, or release coho while chinook fishing, or just enjoy catching and releasing a bunch of salmon. thinking that everyone is gonna catch two and be done is a bit naive and basing management on a belief that anglers will kill their first two coho and come back to the docks by 8am is unrealistic.

of course, the further south the closer you get to that increased estuary mortality. catching fish ten miles off cape flattery in august is gonna be a bit closer to the low numbers mentioned in smalma's posted link (6-7%). the dropoff rate seems high since i have never lost a coho to a marine mammal in area 4. that may no longer be as accurate with the massive numbers of sea lions now friggin' everywhere but i lost none in a week of lackluster coho fishing this august with furbags everywhere.

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#904480 - 08/29/14 08:30 PM Re: If it bites, it dies... [Re: topwater]
Smalma Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 2844
Loc: Marysville
Topwater -
I believe the drop off rate has more to do with the fish being injured and escaping than marine mammal predation though both factors contribute. Suspect it is an expansion of the idea of net drop out and drop-offs associated with the commercial troll fisheries.

I too thought that 5% seemed high though to be fair last year I lost a coho after a couple hard head shakes. Upon reeling in I found two gill arches on my hook - suspect that was a drop off mortality!

I don't fish the ocean so can't comment on the frequency of "floaters" in that fishery.

Curt

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#904488 - 08/29/14 09:33 PM Re: If it bites, it dies... [Re: Smalma]
milt roe Offline
Spawner

Registered: 01/22/06
Posts: 925
Loc: tacoma
Problem is that the real time information suggests that they missed the forecast run size by a bunch. So the management response is to continue and expand fishing rather than back off on harvest to allow for the error. The result either way is fewer wild fish coming back whether it is wild fish release or kill the first two policy.

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#904510 - 08/30/14 12:52 PM Re: If it bites, it dies... [Re: milt roe]
Lucky Louie Offline
Carcass

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 2286
The charters out of Westport that I’ve taken over the years have shown deplorable skills when releasing salmon. Just this Wednesday the boat I was on, weeded through app. 12 wild Coho to get our limit of hatchery Coho. No Chinook caught for the boat, what I was hoping to catch, except 2 shakers. There was 4 floaters after release and by the (lack of) release skills--only 2 out of the 14 fish released had a remote chance of survival in my estimation.

IMO, deck hands and skippers should be required to go to a fish release class before yearly license renewal.
_________________________
The world will not be destroyed by those that are evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything.- Albert Einstein

No you can’t have my rights---I’m still using them





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#904521 - 08/30/14 04:20 PM Re: If it bites, it dies... [Re: Lucky Louie]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
When I was in the pond at the UW I was amazed at the number of coho with head and jaw injuries that had healed. The worst was probably a long dig out of the head that took an eye. There were lots with jaw damage, including the lower jaw split in two at the tip. These were "supposed" to have been the result of being shaken off by trollers. And these were the survivors.

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#904529 - 08/30/14 07:30 PM Re: If it bites, it dies... [Re: Carcassman]
bushbear Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 4709
Loc: Sequim
I remember some pretty bad injuries to fish in that pond, too. Had one that had a 6/0 SS siwash just behind the tongue. We see some pretty good wounds at the Dungeness Hatchery when working the coho spawning.

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#904538 - 08/30/14 10:08 PM Re: If it bites, it dies... [Re: bushbear]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Most of the hatcheries use dto keep a collection of gear taken from sp.awned salmon. Lots of hooks and spinners. I don't recall any with hooks in the UW pond, though.

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#904672 - 09/01/14 11:06 PM Re: If it bites, it dies... [Re: cohoangler]
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1382
Fished around the fleet today. Crazy coho action, all wild for us. Lots of nets flying from the charters as well. The group of fish today all getting bigger to 12#. No kings for us but heard of a few. Done by 1000.
_________________________
"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.” – Ferris Bueller.
Don't let the old man in!

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#904677 - 09/01/14 11:45 PM Re: If it bites, it dies... [Re: Carcassman]
bushbear Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 4709
Loc: Sequim
I saw that fish in the fall of 1969....The hook was just behind the tongue and had a short piece of mono attached.

Lots of good memories of wading in the pond and grabbing large fish. We had a couple of Hoh River Chinook. One fish was pushing 50 lbs. Had some folks with smaller hands who couldn't grab the tail. We'd grab it and pass it off and then the rodeo would start.

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