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#907282 - 09/25/14 09:52 AM Nisqually closure
Krijack Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 1531
Loc: Tacoma
I was a bit worried about this. High Fish Prices and high expectations seem to lead to a hammering of the resources. I have been hearing reports of how hard tribal fisherman were hitting the fish of the coast, then watched as 5 or more boats were hitting it in the sound, where I have never seen a boat before.

Then, a failure of Hoodsport and the Nisqually to get any numbers back. I travel quite a bit, and stopped by the Skok to throw eggs a few times. The numbers appeared to be very low there too.

I am wondering if these fish were intercepted off the coast when they were looking for Colombia River fish? Is there anyway to be certain that they are fishing over the right stocks and not wiping out a different run?

With what appears to be fairly good Ocean Conditions, does anyone have any Idea why these runs, one on the Canal and one in the South Sound, had such low returns compared to forecasts?

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#907298 - 09/25/14 11:32 AM Re: Nisqually closure [Re: Krijack]
Chum Man Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/07/99
Posts: 2691
Loc: Yelmish
the run this year was an absolute bust. usually the non biting rollers seem to show up at the end of july and by the 15th of august it's worth fishing. this year, there were no fish present in early august at all, and around what is normally the peak of the run(labor day) fishing was very slow at best.

i believe the tribe fished well into escapement 3 or 4 years ago, enough that they had to shut down netting mid season. i kind of wonder if overfishing that year had something to do with this?

it was bad enough that we only were able to fish 4 days a week this year, on what was predicted to be a very large return, but at least we can use barbs again(roll eyes). all in all a very frustrating season.

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#907322 - 09/25/14 01:10 PM Re: Nisqually closure [Re: Chum Man]
CedarR Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 08/04/99
Posts: 1463
Loc: Olympia, WA
Not a new problem. In the late eighties a record run of silvers was predicted for the south Sound. You were not only going to be able to walk across their backs in the streams, but could likely walk across their backs in Puget Sound to get to your favorite island coffee shop. I kept my boat at the Narrows Marina an extra month, so I wouldn't miss this mammoth run of coho. Nothing showed! The Nisqually had one of the poorest coho runs ever! Rumor around the boathouse was the big run was exploited completely by commercials before it ever hit the south Sound. In the meantime, WDFW sold a lot of licenses in anticipation of the humungous run of 'hos. And the beat goes on...

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#907338 - 09/25/14 02:33 PM Re: Nisqually closure [Re: ]
steelhead59 Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/09/07
Posts: 155
Loc: Olympia, WA
No king salmon returning to Puget sound was no big secret, I posted the absence of King salmon 2 weeks after the Straights opened on July 1st. There were very few kings being caught in their feeding grounds when they first enter the Straights. Everyone wants to believe and hope the fish are just late. Run timings usually never vary much more than 1 week if they haven't showed up in that time frame they are not coming.
Nisqually chum run, last 2 years a bust, Puget sound hatchery steelhead runs last year late? no they didn't show in any numbers, Cowlitz late winter steelhead last two years no show for what they planted. We all just keep hoping they are late, but they never come.

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#907613 - 09/27/14 01:12 PM Re: Nisqually closure [Re: steelhead59]
OncyT Offline
Spawner

Registered: 02/06/08
Posts: 506
It would be highly unlikely that "fishing well into escapement 3 or 4 years ago" would have any impact on this year's return. Assuming of course that this was meant to mean fishing into natural escapement. The fall Chinook run to the Nisqually is substantially made up of returns from the hatchery program (~90%), and whether or not natural escapement is made has had little impact on the return to the river. To my knowledge the tribal hatcheries have been at full program level since a couple of years after the opening of the Clear Creek hatchery.

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#907617 - 09/27/14 02:13 PM Re: Nisqually closure [Re: OncyT]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
If the fishery 4 years ago had been "well into escapement" of the hatchery fish, the number planted would have been significantly reduced and the forecast would/should have been for a very reduced return. Like Oncy said, the hatchery put the fish out and they appear not to have come back.

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#907747 - 09/29/14 12:40 PM Re: Nisqually closure [Re: Carcassman]
Ohop Joe Offline
Fry

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 23
Hatchery Fall Chinook returns appear to be much lower than predicted throughout South Puget Sound, and Hood Canal. Both, the Skok and the Nisqually hatchery complexes are/were in danger of not meeting egg take goals for the first time in year if not decades.
I am not sure how other Puget Sound stocks are fairing, but the quality of the Straits/Seiku Chinook fishery this summer should have prepared us. Did they also go to Canada like the Sockeye? I can hear one Chinook saying to another: "I have had it, I am moving to Canada!"


Edited by Ohop Joe (09/29/14 12:40 PM)

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#907759 - 09/29/14 02:50 PM Re: Nisqually closure [Re: Ohop Joe]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
What makes you think the sockeye went to Canada?

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#907774 - 09/29/14 05:17 PM Re: Nisqually closure [Re: ]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Seems odd that the Canadians can catch "all" the Lake WA sockeye in the salt while anglers in WA have never seemed to able to catch them there. They just smarter anglers?

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#907775 - 09/29/14 05:19 PM Re: Nisqually closure [Re: Ohop Joe]
gooybob Offline
Spawner

Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 993
Loc: Tacoma
I have a great idea on how to help bring them back (Kings)....tell the tribes to stop raping the resource. I know the Nisqually's say they stopped netting for now but before they start blaming anyone they need to take a good look at themselves. Like with most tribes I've seen them cheat over and over again for 30 years. I've said it a million times nothing devastates the resource more than nets cutting them off at the most strategic points in a RIVER. It's too bad they can't police themselves and they don't!

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#907806 - 09/29/14 08:56 PM Re: Nisqually closure [Re: ]
RB3 Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 08/24/10
Posts: 1383
But at the end of the day...... they're still Canadian smile

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#907814 - 09/29/14 09:42 PM Re: Nisqually closure [Re: RB3]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Historically, Canada took significant harvest of WA Chinook and coho. It wp on as part of a concerted effort to rewrite the sockeye-sharing treaty. In so doing, they significantly overharvested their own stocks.

This harvest, of course, is supported by Americans going up the BC and loading up on "their" fish.

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#907829 - 09/30/14 12:11 AM Re: Nisqually closure [Re: Carcassman]
buggy Offline
Smolt

Registered: 02/12/11
Posts: 94
Not so sure it's the tribes or the Canadians... I think the issue is more rooted in the sterility of the south sound.... Same issue with squaxin pen fish and deschutes fish too. Me thinks the Deep South is on a downward trend...

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#907842 - 09/30/14 10:23 AM Re: Nisqually closure [Re: buggy]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
It's significantly more complicated than "sterility". Deep SS cutthroat, who live here year around, are doing just fine. They have the same basic FW biology as the steelhead who aren't. Deep SS chum and pink are doing pretty well. They share spawning areas with Chinook.

The "problem", in its most severe form, is for yearling or older smolts. Suggests to me that the problem is either some intense predation on the smolts in the Narrows and/or lack of food in the main body of the sound for these larger fish.

Since PS pink and chum seem to be doing OK, and they must transit the same water in the sound it would seem that the problem is not one of water quality (toxin). That is, unless, the toxins are species and life-stage specific.

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#907874 - 09/30/14 03:17 PM Re: Nisqually closure [Re: Carcassman]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Just to reinforce that the problem is in the local marine environment the WDFW blackmouth program has seen a significant decrease in contribution rate (that is, how many of those fish end up harvested by recreational fishers as a percentage of releases) over past years (see the State Auditor's performance audit report on the Delayed Release Blackmouth program).

If one were to plot that decrease over time on a graph and then overlay pinniped population increases over the same period you will see a rather dramatic inverse relationship (correlation). Since pinnipeds eat salmonoids the longer those fish are exposed to predation the more likely they are to be eaten; not a profound observation.

Given the ESA issues for Puget Sound Chinook as well as the three listed species of rockfish the Feds are finally generating some seal predation data. One of the more recent study results confirms that seals do eat (listed) rockfish and that that predation may adversely impact recovery of a depleted stock. Really??? Who would have thought???

Is pinniped predation the only adverse impact? Probably not. But it is likely a significant one and, unfortunately, one which managers would like to be able to ignore due to the politics/public relations aspect of controlling/reducing seal numbers. Seals are just so much cuter than cormorants.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#907891 - 09/30/14 06:27 PM Re: Nisqually closure [Re: Larry B]
OncyT Offline
Spawner

Registered: 02/06/08
Posts: 506
The lack of productivity from hatchery and natural populations with a yearling (or longer) life histories (including coho, steelhead, and fall Chinook yearlings) has been pretty well known since the mid to late 80's, but this year's low survival of zero age hatchery Chinook is really out of the ordinary. I hope it continues to be out of the ordinary and not another trend.

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#907895 - 09/30/14 07:18 PM Re: Nisqually closure [Re: OncyT]
Smalma Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 2844
Loc: Marysville
Just to further confound things even more as Carcassman said the Puget Sound sea-run cutthroat are doing just fine and at least in north Sound the bull trout may be faring even better than the cutts.

Both the cutts and bulls are larger smolts (near steelhead size) and spend even more time in the sound proper (never leaving the sound) than the other salmonids.

Curt

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#907899 - 09/30/14 08:03 PM Re: Nisqually closure [Re: Smalma]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
To confound it even more, at least Lake WA sockeye smolts are in the cutthroat/steelhead smolt size range, well in excess of "normal".

Since the fish that seem to be taking the biggest hit are migrating to the ocean perhaps the problem is "offshore". At least the cutts are pretty loath to cross even something as narrow/deep as Hood Canal.

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#907965 - 10/01/14 02:43 PM Re: Nisqually closure [Re: Carcassman]
Ohop Joe Offline
Fry

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 23
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
What makes you think the sockeye went to Canada?


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/brit...rticle20263431/

Maybe Chinook went the same way in got intercepted in the canadian commercial fishery. They sure didn't seem to come down the straits this year. My hypothesis.

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#907966 - 10/01/14 02:45 PM Re: Nisqually closure [Re: Ohop Joe]
OncyT Offline
Spawner

Registered: 02/06/08
Posts: 506
Interesting hypothesis. If they all diverted and got caught, given how comparatively low the PS return is, it should show as a very large increase in the Canadian catch. Wouldn't that catch be limited by treaty?

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