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#908932 - 10/08/14 07:36 PM Re: Flossing: It's the California way [Re: Keta]
Direct-Drive Offline
ExtenZe Field Tester

Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 8060
Loc: Vancouver, WA
Originally Posted By: Keta
Originally Posted By: ColeyG
Flossing has an appropriate place in the eyes of many and that seems to be sockeye fisheries. Sure sockeye will eat, but it's way easier to floss em and fill the freezer and that's what 99.9% of sockeye fisherman are after, subsistence.

Sportsmanlike? Depends on how you define the word I suppose. There is a line between subsisting and sport certainly and I firmly believe the resource needs to be treated with respect regardless. I also firmly believe in the fundamental importance of both sport and subsistence, sustainability being the important concept in each case.

I floss sockeye and help others to do the same and am not afraid to admit it. Why in my mind this is ok for one fish but entirely unethical for others? I am not quite sure. Justify it how you will; they don't bite, there are so many, etc.

A few points on fishing vs. flossing.

First, the techniques are entirely different though to the untrained eye they can appear similar. Drift fishing, when done well, should try to mimick a natural (current speed) relatively drag free presentation of something that fish is naturally inclined to chew on.

Flossing, when done well, should try to target fish in a specific position (traveling or holding) with line and leader at strategic depths and angles so as to allow the angler to manipulate terminal tackle to achieve expressed purpose of getting groceries hooked in a "legal" area. What does "in the mouth" mean anyhow? What is on the end of the line, besides a hook of course, is of little importance as long as strategic line and leader depths, speeds, and orientations are met.

The differences are painfully obvious to any fisherman and we all know, or should at least, what it is we are trying to do. Unfortunately many charged with enforcing anti-snagging regulations arent fisherman, at least to the point of being able see the differences between fishing and snagging with a drift rig and/or trying to explain the differences from a "legal" standpoint.

To fisherman, anyone that cant tell the difference between a flossed hook up and a naturally accepted offering I say you are an unskilled and/or inexperienced angler. The differences are so obvious they they really can't be missed if you pay attention to the details, as any fisherman worth his salt does. The devil is in them after all.

Setting angler input or methodology aside for a moment, the way a fish behaves after it is hooked is entirely different from a fish that has taken voluntarily vs. one that has been snagged. One fish has been up to something else entirely (resting or moving) with a fairly focused agenda whilst the other has chosen to bite something and is surprised that this thing has a life of it's own.

Getting to know your quarry, it's moods, mindsets and behaviors is a big part of being successful in fishing and elsewhere. If to you fishing is just chucking a line out there and then now and again something pulls back, there is more to it mate. With greater investment comes greater reward.

Once upon a time I'd would have said there are flosserman and fisherman and that's it, but unfortunately it's not that simple. I now realize there are those that have been shown the wrong way and that know no other other methods. There are those that know and abide by better standards for the most part but comprise for food, clients, friends, and fun. There are purists that hold themselves and others to standards that would draw lines between one form of ethical fishing and another.

My current fishing venue is a perfect example of the culture clash that can exist in the steelheading world. For the last few days I've been kicking around steelhead streams in Alaska rubbing elbows with folks that only know how to catch a fish using the kenai flip and rip with a "coho" fly. Then there are those that will only fish an unweighted fly on a floating fly line. Finally there's a few more of us somewhere in the middle.

In the end who is right? Maybe we are all wrong. How can you love something to death anyhow.

I caught a steelhead today, a few in fact,. They are majestic creatures. It was a good day. They all ate what I showed them and I feel good about that. I hope I have a few more days like today down the road. More that that, I hope others are able to enjoy the same sort of days long after I am gone.


Over the years this subject pops up now and then. All the same points over and over again. This post should be the last word on this topic. Probably wouldn't be.

Flossing turns our sport upside down.
Coley's post was thoughtful and spot on.

"... there are those that have been shown the wrong way and that know no other other methods."

There is no hope for that group.
You could cut their hands off like the Muslims do, but I digress.
_________________________
NO STEP ON SNEK

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#908973 - 10/09/14 12:12 AM Re: Flossing: It's the California way [Re: Direct-Drive]
Brewer Offline
2112

Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 4996
Loc: in the mass production zone
I could have posted nearly the same post as coley's. except I would be flamed for admitting to flossing sockeyes...

rofl whistle
_________________________

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#908975 - 10/09/14 12:22 AM Re: Flossing: It's the California way [Re: Brewer]
Dan S. Offline
It all boils down to this - I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone who disputes this is clearly a dumbfuck.

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 17149
Loc: SE Olympia, WA
Originally Posted By: Brewer
I could have posted nearly the same post as coley's.


Bullsh!t.

And everyone except you knows it.
_________________________
She was standin' alone over by the juke box, like she'd something to sell.
I said "baby, what's the goin' price?" She told me to go to hell.

Bon Scott - Shot Down in Flames

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#908982 - 10/09/14 01:49 AM Re: Flossing: It's the California way [Re: Dan S.]
Brewer Offline
2112

Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 4996
Loc: in the mass production zone
Originally Posted By: Dan S.
Originally Posted By: Brewer
I could have posted nearly the same post as coley's.


Bullsh!t.

And everyone except you knows it.


it's pretty obvious why my point went right over your low head.

_________________________

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#909009 - 10/09/14 11:43 AM Re: Flossing: It's the California way [Re: Dan S.]
Salmo g. Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13521
Originally Posted By: Dan S.
Originally Posted By: Brewer
I could have posted nearly the same post as coley's.


Bullsh!t.

And everyone except you knows it.


Nailed that one tight.

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#909033 - 10/09/14 04:38 PM Re: Flossing: It's the California way [Re: Brewer]
Dan S. Offline
It all boils down to this - I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone who disputes this is clearly a dumbfuck.

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 17149
Loc: SE Olympia, WA
Originally Posted By: Brewer
Originally Posted By: Dan S.
Originally Posted By: Brewer
I could have posted nearly the same post as coley's.


Bullsh!t.

And everyone except you knows it.


it's pretty obvious why my point went right over your low head.




Your only point is the one on your dunce cap, dumbass.
_________________________
She was standin' alone over by the juke box, like she'd something to sell.
I said "baby, what's the goin' price?" She told me to go to hell.

Bon Scott - Shot Down in Flames

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#909037 - 10/09/14 06:02 PM Re: Flossing: It's the California way [Re: Dan S.]
Brewer Offline
2112

Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 4996
Loc: in the mass production zone
no the point is your a dwarf who posts like a tough guy. a short man who calls people names. if dunce cap or dumbass is your A game you have not raised your bar in the least. step it up or just shut up.

Coley your post was well written and a good read.

my experience with flossers is that they cannot be rehabilitated. once the practice is ingrained it can't be forgotten.
_________________________

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#909038 - 10/09/14 06:04 PM Re: Flossing: It's the California way [Re: Dan S.]
NickD90 Offline
Shooting Instructor for hire

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 7260
Loc: Snohomish, WA
I floss regularly and I'm not ashamed to admit it. Its especially best after meals and before bedtime.
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“If the military were fighting for our freedom, they would be storming Capitol Hill”. – FleaFlickr02

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#909044 - 10/09/14 06:29 PM Re: Flossing: It's the California way [Re: Brewer]
Dan S. Offline
It all boils down to this - I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone who disputes this is clearly a dumbfuck.

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 17149
Loc: SE Olympia, WA
Originally Posted By: Brewer
no the point is your a dwarf who posts like a tough guy. a short man who calls people names. if dunce cap or dumbass is your A game you have not raised your bar in the least. step it up or just shut up.



"Your a dwarf'

lol

What a dumbfuck.

Make me shut up, Sally.
_________________________
She was standin' alone over by the juke box, like she'd something to sell.
I said "baby, what's the goin' price?" She told me to go to hell.

Bon Scott - Shot Down in Flames

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#909062 - 10/09/14 07:54 PM Re: Flossing: It's the California way [Re: Dan S.]
Brewer Offline
2112

Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 4996
Loc: in the mass production zone
dan listen, I never seek out your posts and attack you. if anything I gloss right over your posts always. I never mentioned you in any way in my 1st reply. in fact I never mention you at all in any post I make unless you come after me first. I'm asking you to put a block on my moniker. this not in any a reply attack just making it public.
_________________________

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#909064 - 10/09/14 07:58 PM Re: Flossing: It's the California way [Re: Brewer]
Dan S. Offline
It all boils down to this - I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone who disputes this is clearly a dumbfuck.

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 17149
Loc: SE Olympia, WA
Originally Posted By: Brewer
dan listen, I never seek out your posts and attack you. if anything I gloss right over your posts always. I never mentioned you in any way in my 1st reply. in fact I never mention you at all in any post I make unless you come after me first. I'm asking you to put a block on my moniker. this not in any a reply attack just making it public.


Fine.

Deal.
_________________________
She was standin' alone over by the juke box, like she'd something to sell.
I said "baby, what's the goin' price?" She told me to go to hell.

Bon Scott - Shot Down in Flames

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#909066 - 10/09/14 08:04 PM Re: Flossing: It's the California way [Re: Dan S.]
ColeyG Offline
Ranger Danger

Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 3098
Loc: AK
The solution I think is fairly easy to craft. Implementing it however is likely impossible.

If I was charged with the task of trying to solve the snagging/flossing problem in AK and by some miracle was given unlimited resources to do it, I'd go at it as follows:


Snagging defined: Any method that hooks or attempts to hook a fish that has not willingly taken or that has not tried to take (bite) the anglers lure or bait.

1. Snagging is legal for sockeye only and anglers must retain the first limit of fish landed while snagging. Snagging is not allowed after a limit has been retained.

2. No snagging or attempting to snag allowed for other species.

3. Properly train enforcement agents in what legal vs. illegal fishing looks like.

4. Deploy a sufficient number of enforcement agents so as to regularly monitor high priority areas at key times and to maintain a timely response capability.

5. Provide incentives for those that report snaggers.


The biggest hurdle of course is #4 for most agencies these days.

As for that other note, I'll blame a few of the loosely connected and/or incomplete ramblings on late night IPA fueled philosophizing.
_________________________
I am still not a cop.

EZ Thread Yarn Balls

"I don't care how you catch them, as long as you treat them well and with respect." Lani Waller in "A Steelheader's Way."

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#909067 - 10/09/14 08:11 PM Re: Flossing: It's the California way [Re: ColeyG]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
I think the best way to stop it is to make fun of snaggers/flossers and shame them into stopping since they aren't stopped by any laws or regulations, and seem to revel in the fact that they are snaggers who can't be stopped.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#909070 - 10/09/14 08:29 PM Re: Flossing: It's the California way [Re: ColeyG]
FinChaser Offline
Fry

Registered: 03/04/13
Posts: 36
Loc: Wasilla, AK / Bellevue, WA
Originally Posted By: ColeyG
The solution I think is fairly easy to craft. Implementing it however is likely impossible.

If I was charged with the task of trying to solve the snagging/flossing problem in AK and by some miracle was given unlimited resources to do it, I'd go at it as follows:


Snagging defined: Any method that hooks or attempts to hook a fish that has not willingly taken or that has not tried to take (bite) the anglers lure or bait.

1. Snagging is legal for sockeye only and anglers must retain the first limit of fish landed while snagging. Snagging is not allowed after a limit has been retained.

2. No snagging or attempting to snag allowed for other species.

3. Properly train enforcement agents in what legal vs. illegal fishing looks like.

4. Deploy a sufficient number of enforcement agents so as to regularly monitor high priority areas at key times and to maintain a timely response capability.

5. Provide incentives for those that report snaggers.


The biggest hurdle of course is #4 for most agencies these days.

As for that other note, I'll blame a few of the loosely connected and/or incomplete ramblings on late night IPA fueled philosophizing.



If that went through, my addition would be to try to clearly define snagging gear. Dodging "Seward Flies" out in the open on the Resurrection is one thing. Dodging them in the closer quarters of the Russian would be a little more exciting. Not that the standard Russian flies and hunks of lead currently used are much better.... Perhaps mandatory full face shields would be in order... smile Also, we'd have to be careful with the timing and location of the snagging rules so we avoid areas with strong species crossover, like when second run of Reds and the Coho are thick on the Kenai.


Edited by FinChaser (10/09/14 08:35 PM)

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#909071 - 10/09/14 08:31 PM Re: Flossing: It's the California way [Re: Brewer]
AP a.k.a. Kaiser D Offline
Hippie

Registered: 01/31/02
Posts: 4533
Loc: B'ham
Originally Posted By: Brewer
I could have posted nearly the same post as coley's.


A little comedy in every PP thread. smile



I agree with Todd. Shame is a powerful weapon for anyone with self awareness. Then, there are others (see above).


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#909082 - 10/09/14 09:24 PM Re: Flossing: It's the California way [Re: ]
Direct-Drive Offline
ExtenZe Field Tester

Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 8060
Loc: Vancouver, WA
1) Mount fighting chair on Jeep
2) Snag flosser in crotch area
3) See how fast flosser can run




smile
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NO STEP ON SNEK

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#909086 - 10/09/14 10:06 PM Re: Flossing: It's the California way [Re: Direct-Drive]
Nor Cal Drifter Offline
Spawner

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 781
Loc: Sacramento, CA
Seriously? You guys are ok flossing one type of Salmon but not another? That's just plain ludicrous. How in the f do you justify that? "Flexible ethics" is a good description. What a joke...I can hear your platform now - "we hate flossers. Unless you're flossing Sockeye. And you're in AK. And you kill everything you floss. Otherwise we're gonna shame you!"

And I'm not attacking Coley here - I'm referring to all of you on here that "shame" flossers then turn around and floss Sockeye in AK.


Edited by Nor Cal Drifter (10/09/14 10:16 PM)
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"Eventually, all things merge into one, and a river runs through it."

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#909087 - 10/09/14 10:23 PM Re: Flossing: It's the California way [Re: Nor Cal Drifter]
Keta Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 03/05/00
Posts: 1092
Ha, that is ludicrous. It should include sockeye in Canada too. I never go near them but hatchery combat fishing zones are a candidate too. If someone wants to floss a hatchery boot to eat who cares.

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#909089 - 10/09/14 10:31 PM Re: Flossing: It's the California way [Re: ]
blackmouth Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/05/04
Posts: 2713
Loc: right place/wrong time
Originally Posted By: Banned User
Make flossers read brewers posts....while staked to a pile of chum carcasses



On an anthill.
_________________________
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."
Winston Churchill

"So it goes." Kurt Vonnegut jr.

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#909090 - 10/09/14 10:53 PM Re: Flossing: It's the California way [Re: blackmouth]
Direct-Drive Offline
ExtenZe Field Tester

Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 8060
Loc: Vancouver, WA
Originally Posted By: Rev. blackmouth
Originally Posted By: Banned User
Make flossers read brewers posts....while staked to a pile of chum carcasses



On an anthill.


In the desert, naked.
_________________________
NO STEP ON SNEK

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