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#910318 - 10/20/14 05:45 PM Re: The case for terminal fisheries... [Re: Smalma]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Why would there need to be a non-Indian commercial fishery to access the NI share? If the recs had a good opportunity to take the share in the river or bay what is then wrong with letting the tribal commercials take the rest of the harvestable?

So long as WDFW had the gonads to allow maximal rec harvest, and push to ensure the fish were there to be caught and not just paper fish, it would seem that sporties would be happy.

At the worst those fish would make it to the gravel to spawn and feed the ecosystem.

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#910327 - 10/20/14 06:26 PM Re: The case for terminal fisheries... [Re: Carcassman]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
Why would there need to be a non-Indian commercial fishery to access the NI share? If the recs had a good opportunity to take the share in the river or bay what is then wrong with letting the tribal commercials take the rest of the harvestable?



This.

The State seems to have no problem creating and prosecuting recreational fisheries for paper fish that get netted before they make it to the rivers...now they might have some actual fish for us to fish for.

So the tribes end up with more than 50%?

So what? So long as the recreationals get as many as we can catch...which is more than we get now...and we all get the economic benefit of such a thing...which none of us is getting now...then fine by me.

Sporties worrying about making sure non-tribal commercials get their fair share are wasting time, money, and fishing time.

Screw those guys...they've been screwing us...well, more to the point, the State has been screwing us by doing that, no reason for us to help.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#910344 - 10/20/14 07:40 PM Re: The case for terminal fisheries... [Re: Todd]
GBL Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 01/31/05
Posts: 1879
Loc: Yakutat
Well said Todd!

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#910347 - 10/20/14 08:02 PM Re: The case for terminal fisheries... [Re: GBL]
Smalma Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 2844
Loc: Marysville
CM -

When I have looked at the how successful in river salmon fisheries have been in the Puget Sound region it is shocking how poorly they do. For the various "S" rivers of north Puget sound the recreational fleet consistently have been able to only catch less than 10% of the in-river run. The mark selective Chinook fisheries for the Skagit spring Chinook and Skykomish summers are also often in the 10% range. A couple of the fall Chinook fisheries have better luck with the Samish and Skokomish topping the list with something in the mid 30% range.

If the non-treaty share it to be caught by the recreational fleet the NT share will always be well below the treaty share. Now I have no problem with that but I felt it is important that folks understood the potential cost in total landings for the non-treaty fleet in such a change.

As you know with most issues in the fish management world things are more complicate than they appear on the surface.

Curt

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#910349 - 10/20/14 08:11 PM Re: The case for terminal fisheries... [Re: Smalma]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Even if we only caught 10% of what was left by the time it got to the river it would a damn sight more than getting 10% of what's there now...and we would be able to have more liberal seasons and bags, and we'd be more successful fishing over more fish, and spending far more money to do it.

It's a win-win-win...except for the handful of commercial guys that cost the economy and us money with their subsidized hobby.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#910352 - 10/20/14 08:14 PM Re: The case for terminal fisheries... [Re: Smalma]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Right now, using your estimates, the sporties get 10% and the commercials 90%. So, the rec fleet is always way below. If the Tribes netted 90% it would still be the same split.

But now, as the GH folks can attest, the bay net fisheries preclude in and upper-river sport fisheries.

Could there be rec fisheries for salmon in the Cascade, Sauk, Suiattle, Whitechuck (for example) if the management scheme in place was able to allocate more than just (maybe) escapement up there? I know that many folks would not find a salmon fishery up there to their personal liking but some folks might like the chance.

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#910366 - 10/20/14 09:37 PM Re: The case for terminal fisheries... [Re: Carcassman]
milt roe Offline
Spawner

Registered: 01/22/06
Posts: 925
Loc: tacoma
Co-managers = Co-maximizers. Sport fishing is an annoying and inefficient necessity as long as we maintain a share. We could live with terminal and/or selective fisheries (we already do) nobody else apparently can.

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#910394 - 10/21/14 12:00 AM Re: The case for terminal fisheries... [Re: milt roe]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Successfully fishing selectively is an embarrassment to netters. Selective fishing is a choice they choose not to make and it looks bad when somebody else successfully does it.

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#910399 - 10/21/14 01:16 AM Re: The case for terminal fisheries... [Re: NickD90]
Fishyfeller Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 06/22/13
Posts: 191
Loc: Port Angeles, Wa
Do you want to save the salmon|? Is it salmon first? If you want to save the salmon ban all sales of in the wild caught salmon. Just like our terrestrial dwelling wildlife. Let the natives harvest there half to feed the village. just do not allow sales to markets. No one raping the resource for money.

Make it like deer, elk , ducks, ect. It is available for harvest, but if you want to eat it you have to go harvest it.

This will never happen, but if it did, it would pretty much fix it.

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#910435 - 10/21/14 09:25 AM Re: The case for terminal fisheries... [Re: Fishyfeller]
cncfish Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 02/24/11
Posts: 258
Loc: whale pass
so where are you going to put all the boats that fish area 9,10,8-1,and 8-2?

I can not imagine what the lower Snohomish would look like with all those boats in there. the Stillaguamish is to small for most of them, and the Skagit is going to be filled with all the area 7 boats. terminal fisheries for Lake Washington are going to be a mess to figure out and the Green/ Duwamish dosn't want rec boats blocking the commercial shipping lower river so most likely no fishing below the Boeing field area... all those boats generate a huge amount of money for the state... I would bet most never apply for the road tax back on the gas they buy, that alone is millions of dollars you would be asking the state to be giving up.

Not to mention the fact that it could be argued that the Snohomish is a mixed stock fishery. that you would need to move all fishing above to the sky, Pilchuck, Sultan, Wallace,,,,, when is it a terminal fishery? when they hit the creek they spawn in?

what i see you advocating is all fishing to look like the Samish and Skokomish snagfests.... is that really how you want to fish all the time? not me! no thank you! some days its fine.... but some days I want to fish without the crowd.

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#910440 - 10/21/14 11:17 AM Re: The case for terminal fisheries... [Re: cncfish]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
I'd like to take the same stand as Todd and say that everyone who wants to eat salmon should have to go outside and catch it. I think the trouble is that salmon are so well-established as a market staple that the only thing that will get them out of stores would be the runs being wiped out to the extent that most of our wild game were before commercial hunting was outlawed. In other words, when there's nothing left to sell, they'll quit selling it.

As long as we're stuck with hatcheries, we might as well turn their operations over to the sector that benefits from them most (the commercial). That way, the financial burden of supplying product for their own markets will fall on them, which is the way it works in just about every other free market enterprise I can think of. I was thinking the other day about the fact that the citizens in the salmon-producing states pay for the salmon the entire world eats through our tax dollars and license fees. Put another way, we're paying so that people in New York can have access to salmon. Rubs me a little wrong. I say locating hatcheries away from areas where mixed stocks are common, putting the production burden on those who profit, and ending open ocean commercial fisheries is what's right for everyone involved (including the wild salmon). The ones who have the money to invest in change won't do it, but they'll spend as much as is needed to maintain the status quo. Sad, but typical of how big business operates.

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#910501 - 10/21/14 07:03 PM Re: The case for terminal fisheries... [Re: FleaFlickr02]
blackmouth Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/05/04
Posts: 2713
Loc: right place/wrong time
Originally Posted By: FleaFlickr02
The ones who have the money to invest in change won't do it, but they'll spend as much as is needed to maintain the status quo. Sad, but typical of how big business operates.


The ones who have the money will invest it in change if they believe that they can obtain a competitive advantage. That is how 'big business' operates.
_________________________
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."
Winston Churchill

"So it goes." Kurt Vonnegut jr.

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#910574 - 10/22/14 01:48 AM Re: The case for terminal fisheries... [Re: blackmouth]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
Wait a minute, there, Rev... Don't you preach that success in business comes at the cost of investment and effort? My point was that those making the real money off the resource (NOT talking gillnetters here) have invested as much or more over the years in lobbying for the status quo that entitles them to untold percentages of natural resources they DON'T invest in than it would cost them to own and operate hatcheries that could support their businesses much more efficiently (and cost-effectively, if you consider the middle men and fishermen they have to pay to get the fish to the processing facilities today).

I'm pretty sure the reason they're doing it the way they do now is so they still have access to a large percentage of the "harvestable" wild fish, in addition to the majority of the hatchery fish you and I pay for. In addition, limitations on what they can harvest (keep on the boat instead of putting back dead) lead to limited supply, which in the face of constant demand yields higher prices per pound. I never called them stupid....

I'll readily admit that my "ideas" don't always meet with reality, but don't you believe that dreams and new ideas are where success begins?

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#910596 - 10/22/14 12:18 PM Re: The case for terminal fisheries... [Re: FleaFlickr02]
blackmouth Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/05/04
Posts: 2713
Loc: right place/wrong time
Originally Posted By: FleaFlickr02
Wait a minute, there, Rev... Don't you preach that success in business comes at the cost of investment and effort?

Yes I do. Your quoted statement (above) is not that far from what I said while i was paraphrasing you.

Originally Posted By: FleaFlickr02
My point was that those making the real money off the resource (NOT talking gillnetters here) have invested as much or more over the years in lobbying for the status quo that entitles them to untold percentages of natural resources they DON'T invest in than it would cost them to own and operate hatcheries that could support their businesses much more efficiently (and cost-effectively, if you consider the middle men and fishermen they have to pay to get the fish to the processing facilities today).

If that was your point, I must disagree with you on it.

Originally Posted By: FleaFlickr02
I'll readily admit that my "ideas" don't always meet with reality, but don't you believe that dreams and new ideas are where success begins?

Begins, perhaps? But most know that there is also great deal of effort, time, and money invested in most successful business's. And if when you refereed to success you where speaking of successful change the same investments will need to be made.

I think it is great that people gather on this board and discuss all types of matters, I usually find it at least entertaining, if not stimulating or even enlightening. So thank you all, for contributing to the fray. Please keep it up.



_________________________
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."
Winston Churchill

"So it goes." Kurt Vonnegut jr.

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#910602 - 10/22/14 12:41 PM Re: The case for terminal fisheries... [Re: blackmouth]
cncfish Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 02/24/11
Posts: 258
Loc: whale pass
"but don't you believe that dreams and new ideas are where success begins?"

Weyerhaeuser had a salmon ranch back in the late 70's to early 80's... it's not a "new idea"

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#910750 - 10/22/14 10:33 PM Re: The case for terminal fisheries... [Re: cncfish]
eddie Offline
Carcass

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 2432
Loc: Valencia, Negros Oriental, Phi...
Ore-Aqua foods sold to Weyerhaeuser back in the 70's. It was an interesting concept. They used warm water (I think effluent from a pulp mill) to raise the smolts to release size quicker. But their idea for aquaculture was to release them into the saltwater to complete a normal salmon life cycle. This doesn't solve the mixed stock marine fishing problem, it only makes it worse.
_________________________
"You're not a g*dda*n looney Martini, you're a fisherman"

R.P. McMurphy - One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest

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#910759 - 10/22/14 10:55 PM Re: The case for terminal fisheries... [Re: eddie]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Ocean ranching works when the producer harvests the product when it returns home. For it to work, there needs to be an elimination of the marine mixed stock fisheries. If corporations got into ocean ranching they might be able to put together the power to close those fisheries. That is, I believe, why many states such as AK outlawed ocean ranching.

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#910911 - 10/24/14 01:48 AM Re: The case for terminal fisheries... [Re: Jerry Garcia]
luckydogss Offline
Smolt

Registered: 09/20/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Renton
Look at Neets Bay, part of the SSRA( http://www.ssraa.org/). I've fished for years around this bay in Ketchikan. The fishing is great for both commercial and recreational plus...the hatchery is self sufficient financially. Everybody is happy!
The commercial guys pick off a lot of our fish on the outside waters but those fishing inside catch more of these fish than those heading south of the border. They catch them all the way to an imaginary line across the bay where they become the hatcheries for either brood stock or cost recovery.
This hatchery is basically a warehouse parked on a small creek with a very efficient processing facility and a few ponds. They have a barrier net where 100's of thousands of adult fish stack up. They have to set the net because they will come in such numbers that they'll suffocate at the end of the bay.
They spawn an unimaginable amount of fish and they move a barge and tenders in every summer process all the fish products they sell. The chums, silvers, AND kings exceed the quantity of what tribes and recs get in all of Puget Sound.

This is one hatchery on a little creek, on a bay full of happy fisherman, that's financially responsible. I don't have to make a comparison to our hatchery system, the difference is obvious. What I don't understand is why we don't quit making our rivers the terminal fishery and do something like this instead? I've read a through a lot of arguments on PP and this seems like it might be a solution, at least in some areas.

In Puget Sound, I can think of a few places like Sinclair inlet that would work great for this kind of set up. Close the in-river hatcheries and strategically place a couple like these and with any luck the tribes will leave the rivers alone. Maybe that's wishful thinking but at the least they won't be netting 90% of every fish trying to enter the river so they can make sure they catch all the hatchery fish!

Alaska is like us in that we both have a lot of user groups and rivers that can't possibly produce what everyone wants. These hatcheries were set up to raise their own production and a lot reap the benefits. They put them on a quiet bay instead of a naturally producing river. I think we could use similar benefits and should give their success a serious look. Take a look at the numbers this hatchery produces and imagine how much better fishing would be here or take a trip up to Ketchikan and check it out for yourself!

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#910920 - 10/24/14 10:18 AM Re: The case for terminal fisheries... [Re: luckydogss]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
For any one of a myriad of reasons it won't work in Puget Sound. Getting beyond ESA (increased mixed stock fishing) and Treaties (the tribes are entitled to half) there is the simple problem of water.

To run a hatchery you need high quality water. The amount varies depending on how long the young fish are reared but tuly large volumes of clean, unpolluted, disease-free waster is needed. And, you need land. Going to be expensive to buy land on some nice little inlet.

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#910961 - 10/24/14 03:05 PM Re: The case for terminal fisheries... [Re: Carcassman]
luckydogss Offline
Smolt

Registered: 09/20/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Renton
I just threw it out there for a different perspective. I gave an example of a classic terminal fishery, one that works for all partys and is financially self sufficient.
This Neets bay hatchery is on a small creek. I don't know where they get the large qty of clean water you say is needed but this one hatchery produces enough smolts for multiple release sites.

Using the Sinclair Inlet as an example, you have the Minter Creek hatchery in the back of the inlet. You got water, property, and a bay long enough to provide multiple fisheries within it. And there isn't any river systems to worry about.


I'm sure a hatchery terminal fishery like I suggested will never work. The reason is we as anglers and our "managers" will never change from the existing model. We argue, we go to court, and when all is said and done we end up losing opportunity. There's no inovation, there's just excuses for why we can't change.

If it does ever change I'll get a boat to fish here again but after 35 yrs of watching decline, I've decided to keep my boat in Ketchikan.

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