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#911420 - 10/28/14 07:35 PM WFC is taking some heat from the Tribes
Backtrollin Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 10/18/07
Posts: 174
Loc: Duvall, WA
Will the WFC lawsuits put the Sportfishermen and the Tribes on the same team?

It seems to me that for the first time in my 35 years I might be witnessing a shift in some aspects of fishing politics (at least when it comes to PS Steelhead).

Any thoughts on the topic

The Wild Fish Conservancy ignores habitat when they’re making their case for steelhead

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#911425 - 10/28/14 07:55 PM Re: WFC is taking some heat from the Tribes [Re: Backtrollin]
TanTastic84 Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 10/21/11
Posts: 182
Loc: Seattle, WA
Someone posted a link to a video about this WFC topic about a year ago. I think it was on vimeo. I never got a chance to watch it. If someone out there know what video I'm talking about I would really like to see it. If you could post a link I would really appreciate it.

Thanks!

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#911427 - 10/28/14 08:29 PM Re: WFC is taking some heat from the Tribes [Re: TanTastic84]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
I think that sporties and the NWIFC do have some common ground in hatchery issues...and I have had some issues with how the WFC has operated the last couple of years, especially...but to say that the WFC "ignores" habitat would be a gross misstatement.

The lawsuit in question is not about habitat, it's about hatchery/wild interactions.

Fish on...

Todd
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#911431 - 10/28/14 08:41 PM Re: WFC is taking some heat from the Tribes [Re: Todd]
supcoop Offline
Lady Killer Deluxe

Registered: 03/11/05
Posts: 1132
Loc: Kirkland
Originally Posted By: Todd
The lawsuit in question is not about habitat, it's about hatchery/wild interactions.


Is their intentions really the protection of wild fish? The illogical approach to some of the topics they attack or ignore would leave a person to assume they are after money for lawsuits.

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#911432 - 10/28/14 08:45 PM Re: WFC is taking some heat from the Tribes [Re: supcoop]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
I can't argue with that at all...arguing in favor of studying a broodstock program on the Skagit is the most ridiculous, and calling out the water intake diversion at Tokul as an ESA violation, then challenging WDFW's permit application to fix it...well, that's just a straight up crock'o'shitt and makes them look like idiots worthy of ridicule.

They do, however, address habitat issues all the time and I suspect that the recent attacks on hatchery fish are actually a backdoor attempt to get everyone to focus on habitat issues.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#911449 - 10/28/14 09:47 PM Re: WFC is taking some heat from the Tribes [Re: supcoop]
AP a.k.a. Kaiser D Offline
Hippie

Registered: 01/31/02
Posts: 4533
Loc: B'ham
Originally Posted By: supcoop


Is their intentions really the protection of wild fish? The illogical approach to some of the topics they attack or ignore would leave a person to assume they are after money for lawsuits.


Their intentions are definitely about the protection of wild fish. Not limited to WFC, questioning actions or tactics seems fair but questioning intentions starts veering towards conspiratorial territory.

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#911462 - 10/29/14 12:24 AM Re: WFC is taking some heat from the Tribes [Re: AP a.k.a. Kaiser D]
steeliedrew Offline
SRC Poser

Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 2143
Loc: Snohomish
WFC is for the birds. Nuff said.
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#911463 - 10/29/14 12:47 AM Re: WFC is taking some heat from the Tribes [Re: Backtrollin]
topwater Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 06/28/00
Posts: 452
Loc: Rocky Mountain High
Originally Posted By: Backtrollin
Will the WFC lawsuits put the Sportfishermen and the gillnetters on the same team?


fixed it for you.

no fan of wfc after their area 4/lingcod bull but i would be very careful getting into bed with tribal gillnetters.

fish trying to access the best habitat in the state are being denied by tribal gillnets. i agree that habitat is critical for salmon, but some of the best habitat in the lower-48 doesn't teem with wild fish solely due to tribal gillnets and either their hatchery plants or plants they would fight tooth and nail to retain.


Edited by topwater (10/29/14 12:47 AM)

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#911476 - 10/29/14 11:58 AM Re: WFC is taking some heat from the Tribes [Re: Todd]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
Originally Posted By: Todd
...arguing in favor of studying a broodstock program on the Skagit is the most ridiculous,

Fish on...

Todd


That is a scary proposition, right there. So long as the hatchery Chambers Ck steelhead were stocked in the Skagit, the treaty gillnet fishery has focused on those fish, with very small numbers of native, wild steelhead taken. If a signficant hatchery program using native broodstock is undertaken, then hatchery and wild steelhead will have identical migration timing. And when tribal gillnets are in the water, both hatchery and wild steelhead will be taken.

I say it's scary because some of the ESA biologists who would review the program are of the mind that as long as the genetics are the same, it's OK, even though we know it's not the genetics; it's the hatchery rearing experience that compromises reproductive fitness through heritable attributes.

If WFC supports native steelhead broodstock programs without understanding what that means in terms of treaty fishing, that's f'n looney.

Sg

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#911479 - 10/29/14 12:06 PM Re: WFC is taking some heat from the Tribes [Re: Salmo g.]
JustBecause Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 07/18/08
Posts: 237
"through heritable attributes"

How is this not genetic?

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#911482 - 10/29/14 12:11 PM Re: WFC is taking some heat from the Tribes [Re: Todd]
GodLovesUgly Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 04/20/09
Posts: 1269
Loc: WaRshington
Originally Posted By: Todd

The lawsuit in question is not about habitat, it's about hatchery/wild interactions.


How much money, time, and resources have been WASTED by WFC in pursuit of their outlandish schema of lawsuits. The hatchery lawsuit is only one of many acts of desperation by WFC to force action (that has ultimately failed them, us, and the resource). Lest we not forget their lawsuits against individual biologists as a followup to the Elwa project....

The point here is they are burning up energy, and wasting the time and resources of themselves, the tribes, WDFW and anyone else they poison with their nonsense. The energy they have put into destructive critisism of other agencies could have been used to (a) find and restore habitat resources themselves (b) conduct in basin monitoring efforts to determine the effectiveness of other projects aimed at restoring wild fish, and (c) get off the jock of other agencies so they can DO THEIR JOBS and continue to restore and monitor habitat throughout the PS watersheds.

So yes, they HAVE completely ignored habitat, by aiding in its degradation.


Edited by GodLovesUgly (10/29/14 12:13 PM)
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#911483 - 10/29/14 12:15 PM Re: WFC is taking some heat from the Tribes [Re: topwater]
milt roe Offline
Spawner

Registered: 01/22/06
Posts: 925
Loc: tacoma
The tribal argument presented here is extremely weak. The two figures the Fish Comm present don't even show the same data. One shows population trends and sport harvest over time and one shows harvest trends and hatchery plants. Apples and oranges. No conclusions can be drawn from their data, and whether impervious surface impacts populations is certainly not demonstrated with what they present.

Habitat is important, but their data simply don't make their point.

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#911486 - 10/29/14 12:59 PM Re: WFC is taking some heat from the Tribes [Re: milt roe]
Backtrollin Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 10/18/07
Posts: 174
Loc: Duvall, WA
Here is a trend: The WFC is celebrating 25 years of existence this month and the wild fish numbers continue to trend down.

All of the WFC's "restoration projects", law suites & studies may offer little or no improvement for wild fish. This outfit is a tax dollar eating machine...Everybody on their staff collects a nice salary and the fish continue to struggle.


Edited by Backtrollin (10/29/14 02:00 PM)

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#911504 - 10/29/14 04:45 PM Re: WFC is taking some heat from the Tribes [Re: JustBecause]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
Originally Posted By: JustBecause
"through heritable attributes"

How is this not genetic?


It is genetic, but it's not distinguishable through the allele separation. So the hatchery fish and the wild fish "appear" to be the same, genetically. It's all cool. Wazza' matter, you don't trust us?

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#911505 - 10/29/14 04:55 PM Re: WFC is taking some heat from the Tribes [Re: Salmo g.]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
Milt,

The first two graphs (Umpqua & Skagit) are from WFC, and you're right; they make a lousy comparison. Cherry picking and poor science. The impervious surface graphs are from NWIFC, and while it at least qualifies as science, it's not very good either. It's no easy task to identify the environmental metric(s) that explain the difference between the Umpqua and the Skagit. Both have a variety of habitat issues, and both have some of the "last best good quality" habitat in their respective regions. Being slightly familiar with the Skagit, the conclusion drawn between hatchery steelhead plants and declining sport catch particularly irritates me, since they totally ignore the habitat factors that have been degraded over exactly the time frame that the wild steelhead abundance and sport catch has declined.

Sg

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#911510 - 10/29/14 05:13 PM Re: WFC is taking some heat from the Tribes [Re: Salmo g.]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
The NWIFC should have added in a chart comparing these two things:

1. The areas of the Skagit where their tribal members use gillnets to harvest wild steelhead, and

2. The areas of the Umpqua where their (or any other) tribal members use gillnets to harvest wild steelhead.

Something tells me that they didn't leave those two out by accident.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#911521 - 10/29/14 05:56 PM Re: WFC is taking some heat from the Tribes [Re: Todd]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7412
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
According to folks I have talked to in Oregon, the Umpqua watershed has different and significantly more fertile base rock than does the Skagit. The higher fertility leads to higher productivity.

Streams with low productivity need imported nutrients rather than eroded ones. This is also why many of the Great Lakes tributaries appear to be so productive of fish. The base rock provides the nutrients.

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#911534 - 10/29/14 07:13 PM Re: WFC is taking some heat from the Tribes [Re: Salmo g.]
milt roe Offline
Spawner

Registered: 01/22/06
Posts: 925
Loc: tacoma
Salmo - Thanks for catching that. I didn't see that those graphs were from WFC and not the tribes. Either way, there is nothing there that one could draw anything meaningful from. The figures don't support a defensible argument for hatchery outplanting or habitat or anything else that may be driving populations. Same thing for the impervious surface figures though. Impervious may be correlated with observed population trends, but two watersheds don't demonstrate cause and effect.

You would think that both sides could pull together some better science to support their positions. I know they both have access to it.

In the end it always comes down to everyone being right to some degree. It never ends.

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#911537 - 10/29/14 07:23 PM Re: WFC is taking some heat from the Tribes [Re: milt roe]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
Todd,

A map of the area where Skagit tribes harvest wild steelhead would be rather meaningless without data showing the numbers of wild steelhead that they harvest. That would actually be a good scientific comparison and indicate that neither the Skagit nor Umpqua wild steelhead populations are much influenced by tribal netting, forcing the curious to look for other factors to explain the status of the respective wild steelhead populations.

Carcassman,

What, you mean not all freestone streams are as inherently productive as the limestone chalkstreams? Oh, the horror!

Sg

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#911541 - 10/29/14 07:40 PM Re: WFC is taking some heat from the Tribes [Re: Salmo g.]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
Todd,

A map of the area where Skagit tribes harvest wild steelhead would be rather meaningless without data showing the numbers of wild steelhead that they harvest. That would actually be a good scientific comparison and indicate that neither the Skagit nor Umpqua wild steelhead populations are much influenced by tribal netting, forcing the curious to look for other factors to explain the status of the respective wild steelhead populations.



Just being fascetious...if they're going to use mostly irrelevant maps showing a mostly bogus comparison between the two I figgered they could just add the netting map in, too, as it would also be irrelevant.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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