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#914786 - 12/02/14 02:54 PM Re: Seems simple to me [Re: Salmo g.]
supcoop Offline
Lady Killer Deluxe

Registered: 03/11/05
Posts: 1132
Loc: Kirkland
Then it must be the hatchery fish!!!

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#914901 - 12/03/14 12:38 PM Re: Seems simple to me [Re: supcoop]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13521
Originally Posted By: supcoop
Then it must be the hatchery fish!!!



Yeah, because it just couldn't be the degraded habitat, right?

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#914906 - 12/03/14 01:57 PM Re: Seems simple to me [Re: Salmo g.]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
If it was degraded habitat the pinks, anadromous cutties, and native char wouldn't be increasing.

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#914907 - 12/03/14 02:17 PM Re: Seems simple to me [Re: Carcassman]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Again......If it were only so simple.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#914908 - 12/03/14 02:28 PM Re: Seems simple to me [Re: Carcassman]
Smalma Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 2844
Loc: Marysville
CM -

As you know habitat of a given river basin is quite complex and each of our anadromous species partition the habitat resulting each species developing different spawning and rearing strategies to take advantage of specific habitats. Because of those different spawning and rearing strategies it is common for the various species to have different production bottle necks.

The fact that a given species is doing well in a basin is doing well does not mean that the basin's over habitat is not degraded only that the most critical production bottle neck for that given species is less degraded.

Let's consider the case of Skagit bull trout. The key habitat for that species is cold water spawning habitats (for egg incubation) and quality juvenile habitat. In the case of the Skagit bull trout that essentially cold water spawning locations is found in the head water areas of larger basin tributaries. Fortunately for those bull trout it has been estimated that 80% basin key bull trout habitat is still essential intact (located in a national park and wilderness area. It should not have been a surprised that once harvest pressure on bull trout was relaxed that the population increased.

Contrast that with the situation for Skagit basin winter steelhead. The vast majority of the 290 miles of steelhead spawning habitat is located well downstream of that key bull trout habitat. Much of that potential steelhead habitat has been altered by man that significantly have limited the over-winter habitat (complex habitat structures) for both the fry and parr steelhead. This altered habitat limits the steelhead potential of the basin below historic levels.

Similarly habitat changes will effect each of the basin salmonids populations to varying degrees .

Curt

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#914919 - 12/03/14 03:29 PM Re: Seems simple to me [Re: Salmo g.]
gooybob Offline
Spawner

Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 993
Loc: Tacoma
We have fft up what we haven't sh!t on and unfortunately with the population exploding it's never going to be the same as it was. Toss in the greed factor and that puts the nail in the coffin. I'm seriously thinking of giving up salmon and steelhead fishing after 55 years of it. I'll use my boat to fly fish the Yakima and other streams for trout and the occasional wild steelhead over there. There is still potential for solitude and even when it's perceived as crowded compared to over here it's paradise. At some point one has to say they've had enough.

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#914978 - 12/03/14 08:48 PM Re: Seems simple to me [Re: gooybob]
milt roe Offline
Spawner

Registered: 01/22/06
Posts: 925
Loc: tacoma
Glad that Curt and Salmo have it all figured out. Does make it simpler when we only have one H to worry about.

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#914993 - 12/03/14 09:38 PM Re: Seems simple to me [Re: Carcassman]
TastySalmon Offline
Smolt

Registered: 04/16/14
Posts: 77
Loc: Lake Samish
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
While you may be right that simply not fishing here does not address the manifold problems the fish face the attitude that "they" do more damage than "we" do is why we will never restore the ecosystems.

No one action, except probably dams, can be pointed to as causing the destruction of our fish runs. Look at the myriad of threads here. Nobody here hurts ESA fish; it is somebody else such as nets, Indians, Alaskans, Canadians, the high seas pirate netters, and so on.

I believe the problem is that there are so many issues, most of which one of "death by 1,000 cuts" that most folks can say, with a straight face, "You need to control some body else because it isn't me. If you control me, nothing will improve because my impact is so small."


I agree that the current state of salmon and steelhead is a result of a thousand cuts, but I disagree that only one specific action directly is or was responsible in a quantifiable way.

Diking and river channelization for flood control and the creation of lower basin farmland is one of the most significant actions that resulted in a loss of anadromous populations. The effects from diking, dewatering, and the subsequent expansion of agricultural lands and development is especially notable in major Puget Sound rivers.

The result of river modifications is directly responsible for the drastic decrease of fish production, perhaps more significantly than dams in some cases.

While flood control and dewatering of the lowlands may not have affected spawning areas for some species or stocks, the massive decrease in lower basin habitat complexity has directly affected the productivity of chinook (and other species) due to their reliance on the transitional complex between fresh water and the estuary. In just about every situation in Puget Sound, this area has vanished and so have our chinook.

The WRIA documents for Puget Sound usually contain a large amount of reading about habitat loss and the resulting anadromous population declines and are readily available with a quick search.

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