Research is in that Atlantic Salmon do spawn sucessfully in our streams. It is also noted that the greatest risk is to STEELHEAD. Atlantic Salmon spawn earlier and grow faster causing their smolts to be the dominant fish in the system. This is a major red flag and should be taken very seriously. Research has been done by John Volpe of the University of Victoria. Here is a link to his home page. http://web.uvic.ca/~jvolpe/

Here is a link to a news article http://www.enn.com/news/enn-stories/2000/06/06072000/wildsalmon_13647.asp


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Marty
Steelheader.net marty@steelheader.net

Oh man, that's not good at all. I'm mad to hear that.

Chris

In the last 2 years we have even seen a couple of them caught in both the Queets and the Quinault Rivers.

Marty'
Thanks for the links to this interesting information. I also appreciate the fish news links on your website. The more informed we become, the better it will be for fishing in the long run.
It looks like farming salmon in net pen has created a whole new set of problems for Pacific salmon and steelhead. Just the other day I read an article about a krill fishery in the Straits of Georgia. Krill are used by the salmon farms as a feeding stimulant. The worry is that this fishery is taking food from wild salmon and other fish. There is such a high demand for krill by the salmon farms that the Cargil Corp. is plannig fishing operations in the former Antartica whaling grounds. This article is at www.anglingbc.com/davesreport/dave.html
The last quote in the article about John Volpe says it all, "the biggest problem facing Pacific salmonoid stocks is our own ignorance and continuing acceptance of its prominent role in defining natural resource policy."

Interesting article on the krill fishery. I have been concerned by the overfishing of our herring/anchovie/sardine/squid stocks for a long time. It was apparent 15 years ago with the disappearance of the schools of bait fish that use to populate the Straits of Juan De Fuca. The mismanagement by our fisheries managers doesn't stop with the salmon and may have actually started with the overfishing of their lower food chains. With the increase in krill fishing I would then reason the sockeye runs of the Thompson system will take a dramatic fall. Some big assumptions in my statements, but they sure seem to fit.

Tight Lines

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Marty
Steelheader.net marty@steelheader.net

It's a nice article, but I have to disagree. On the east coast the Alantics are losing ground to Kings, Cohos, and Steelies. A few years ago the World Record Coho was from New York. It may still be. I have caught both Pacific and Alantic Salmon, and the Alantics really put up a fight. I think that maybe people are just trying to shut down all fish farming. First they complained about the silt and crabbing damage. Then escapees are going to overrun our native fish. I say just keep an eye on it and let it be.

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Just because I look big, dumb, and ugly, doesn't mean I am. It means I can stomp you for calling me it!

Not to worry, Marty. We've got co-managed fisheries in this state; Atlantic salmon don't have a chance. Visit http://www.gaalliance.org/salmonpress.html for an example of how the extreme enviros and the commercial fishing industry team up to attack salmon farming operations in the Northwest.

With fish farming I would tend to think that the lower prices for farmed fish (with better retail profit margins) coupled with a more consistent supply for retailers fewer native fish will be sold into the commercial market. Especially if the lower prices push more commercial fisherman to other species or other industries.
Even if the fish farms release fish that compete with native and hatchery stocks, my gut feeling is they may be causing more benefits than detriments.

Huntar, your gut feeling is likely to turn to nausea after future ESA listings further restrict pacific salmon and steelhead fishing if Atlantics are introduced.

The consequences of introducing a piscivorous predator into northwest streams could be extreme and unpredictable. There is a finite amount of habitat and food sources available to spawning and juvenile salmon on many rivers. If Atlantics colonize these rivers and compete with native fish there will be reductions in native fish populations. If juvenile Atlantics feed on smaller juvenile Pacific Salmon and steelhead, as well as coastal and sea-run cutthroat, there will be further reductions in native fish populations. Even if the Atlantics don't "win" the competition with native fishes and come to dominate the streams, if they become established they will take resources from and reduce the populations of native fish. If these things happen, what do you the regulatory response will be in light of the endangered species act? They'd shut the affected rivers down, and rightly so.

Believe me, introducing exotics is not a good thing. I'm surprised Plunker though so. Although I don't agree with his wild fish kill opinion his ideas are usually well thought out. He either didn't think this one through or he was just trying to start an argument (which is pretty likely). At the least, a successful introduction of Atlantics will lead to reductions in native fish populations in the affected streams.

Actually, Plunkers remarks are pretty accurate, although I do not agree with his opinion that Atlantics should replace steelhead in our streams.

In the 1980s, WA Fish and Game made concerted efforts to stock Atlantic salmon in the Green River and try to establish a run; all attempts met with failure. I don't know what they were thinking at the time regarding interactions with steelhead and Pacific salmon, but major attempts were made.

I believe there are remnant spawning Atlantic salmon in Puget Sound streams and BC streams, probably the result of those earlier stocking efforts, or periodic losses from net pen facilities. The fact that there appear to be more sightings in BC streams likely reflects the order of magnitude difference in the size of their net pen industry compared to ours.

I don't believe there is sufficient evidence to indicate that Atlantic salmon can establish more than a remnant population in Pacific waters. Look at the numbers: some of the releases from Puget Sound or BC net pens have numbered in the hundreds of thousands of adults at one time. Most of our rivers do not even receive salmon and steelhead smolt plants of this size, and yet no established runs. If 100,000 adults can only produce a few remnant juveniles, think about how many juveniles it would take to produce even more adults necessary to establish a run. The numbers just don't add up.

Great Lakes biologists have had similar frustrations. Historically, landlocked Atlantic salmon runs were present in Lake Ontario, but all attempts to reestablish these fish have failed. Whereas the coho, chinook, and steelhead, all introduced in the 60s, have naturally spawning populations in Lakes Superior, Huron, Michigan, and Ontario. Pink salmon are the propogation kings in the Great Lakes; after a one time accidental introduction in the 50s (?), they have spread to all 5 Great Lakes, even and odd year runs.

As the news piece states, Atlantic juveniles or sub-adults may be able to hold their own with our Pacific counterparts in the stream environment, but it really appears that the adults have very specific requirements to live and propogate, conditions that don't appear to be present in the Pacific Ocean.

Continued monitoring is necessary to determine, for example, if the genetics of these fish are changing, allowing them to adapt to conditions in the Pacific, but the present numbers do not warrant shutting down the net pen industry. Stinkfoot correctly points out a number of dire "ifs", but present research does not indicate that any of these "ifs" will ever occur.

To All:

Commerical fishing is threaten by "fish farms"....over the years lot's have been said and written about the introduction of the altanic salmon.

Bottom line---to feed the masses, fish farms are the way to go...year around supply, a size or fish the restaurants want, cost per fish, low.

A bonus---less gillnetting, sound/rivers, by non-tribal fisherman.

Bottom line....flood the market with good farm raised fish, less inpact on native stock fish!!!

"Worse day sport fishing, better than the best day working"

[This message has been edited by DrifterWA (edited 06-12-2000).]

I wouldnt worry about the ability of farm raised Alantic Salmon to spawn in our rivers at this time. But I would be concerned with the disease they can spread. What do you think is happening to the wild Alantic Salmon in Maine, Maritime providences and the Scandinavia countries. It's the inability of wild fish to fight off the diseases and sea lice of these full of anti biotics farm fish.
Ya know that if worst comes to worst and our salmon and steelhead our fully on the verge of extinction from netting that it will be stopped by the federal goverment. But if our wild fish are defenseless against the diseases that farm raised fish create then there is nothing that anyone can do to stop the demise of our fish.
It is said that as much as 25% of the worlds bait fish are now being harvested for the use of feeding Aqua culture produce.
Unless fish farming comes ashore and treats its efluent and finds alternative food sources it may very well may do in our NW fisheries in the future.

Obsessed, I appreciate your command of numbers but I think that considering the possible consequences of failure it is reckless to raise foxes so close to the chicken coop, so to say.
Do you know of any research detailing why adult Atlantics could not survive in the Pacific?
Are the few juvenile Atlantics found remnants, as you suggest, or are they a first generation of river spawners? Noone knows but isn't it possible that if the net pen industry loses a few hundred thousand a year then eventually some will meander into a river and spawn successfully? Saying that there is no science to support this is easy because there isn't yet much science studying the issue of west coast introduction of Atlantics at all. Lack of evidence is no evidence either way. Shouldn't we be looking for positive evidence that for whatever reasons Atlantics can't gain a toehold on the Pacific coast before we screw around with the ecosystem?

Obsessed, I'm not trying to start one of those bitchy arguments that occasionally pop up here. I respect your knowledge and I have big blanks in my own knowledge on the subject and would appreciate any enlightenment you could send my way.
There are strong arguments for net pen operations -- DrifterWA you're on the mark. There are also some possibly huge impacts. As LandTuna pointed out the ocean bait fish populations are getting worked over pretty good. If that keeps up how will that affect fish populations?
Some days it seems like whereever you turn you can't find a solution. Time to go fishin'. Anyone know a good Tiger Muskie lure for the Willamette??

I'm defining remnants as either adults that have reproduced successfully or juveniles that were born in the wild. I don't question that this has not happened, but whether these occurrences will develop into an established run.

Stinkfoot, your right, there has not been much research done; I think Volpe's stuff may be it. I base my opinion on the 20 years of opportunity that Atlantic salmon have had in Puget Sound and BC to establish populations that can be considered true "runs", and they haven't. Its established runs of fish that will cause serious ecological disruption to native steelhead and salmon populations. A few successful spawners here or there, in a stream here or there, won't harm the ecosystem.

The fact that you have any exotics reproducing at all is alarming to some, but to me, 20 years of trying indicates that its not going to happen.

You bring up another good point regarding the tiger muskie, which is sterile. Folks have developed sterile muskies, sterile steelhead (triploid rainbows), and sterile brown trout; they could probably engineer sterile Atlantics, which would make this conversation moot.

The disease issue is significant, although there is no evidence that diseases are being transferred to wild populations. The Canadians are studying this in the Fraser delta where many of the net pens are located.

The baitfish issue is interesting, but again it seems to me that they can find alternatives to using actual baitfish. What do hatcheries use? I read the article that Land Tuna is referring too and its put out by the commercial fishing industry. Hmmm

Just like agriculture, net pens have environmental consequences. But if farmed fish satisfies a demand that would otherwise by satisfied by wild fish, there is a net benefit. As always, a balance must be struck, and it is my opinion that the regulation of net pens into extinction because a few spawning Atlantics have been found is unnecessary. Especially when there is the potential for real positive benefit to wild fish.

Kinda off subject, but back in NY and other eastern states with big Muskies and Pike people used live kittens rubber banded to a great big treble hook. Then tossed it's poor little butt in to weed beds. I never fished that way. But these fish were HUGE. I'm talking 50 plus pounds. This was also twenty years ago. I would use big ol' Daredevil spoons. They make a five ounce version that is the size of your hand.

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Just because I look big, dumb, and ugly, doesn't mean I am. It means I can stomp you for calling me it!

Where in the hell did that thought come from? If you use fresh puppies, you have to use a stinger hook braided to their tale. Too many short biters other wise. Chocolate toy poodles work best, as their fur is more bouyant, but baby bassets work good too, as their ears create more wake. Either way, they are only good for about a dozen casts, so you need to bring the whole litter for a full day of fishing. Sorry I got demented. peace

Stinkfoot asked about a good tiger muskie lure. Sorry about that Hawk.

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Just because I look big, dumb, and ugly, doesn't mean I am. It means I can stomp you for calling me it!

Arlright.. Don't let PETA see anything about the "cat"fishing, cause I promise, they'll start another webpage just protesting that.. *LOL*

And two, if the Atlantic's ever become a problem, just turn the tribes loose on them. Without our millions of dollars to try and keep the stocks up, they don't stand a chance of surviving..

Tom

This also may be off the subject, but has anyone been catching any atlantics lately in the Green?

Sometimes the anti commercial fishing rhetoric on this site is ammusing but then so are some of the pet bio-illogical theories. All the facts in the continuing debate over farmed salmon are muddied up by everyone who spreads misinformation about the subject so here is a little Factual not anecdotal information re. how long has this been going on. According to Clemens and Wilby, Fishes of the Pacific Coast of Canada {first edition 1946} "The Atlantic Salmon was first introduced into British Coloumbia Waters in 1905, through the transfer of eggs from the Canadian Atlantic Coast to the Cowichan Lake hatchery by the Canadian Department of Fisheries. Further introductions were made over a considerable period of years. The resulting fingerlings and yearlings were liberated in the Cowichan and many other river systems.It was hoped that this much prized fish might become established and provide an attractive angling fihery. However the liberation of young fish did not produce the expected results,although a few individuals were caught in the Cowichan River by anglers. In 1933 and 1934, shipments of Atlantic slmon eggs were secured from Scotland but these introductions wer even less successful, in that no reports of captures were obtained. Although the species has failed to become established, the record is included here because of its historic intrest." We already have enough problems and this one is on the pile . Look up in Alaska those nasty old Alaskans passed laws against the new high tech fish farming industry standing once again in the way of progress The same unholy alliance off Commercial fishers and greenies that keep blocking minning, logging, and hydro development, I digress. Anyway hope you could use the quote from the leading fisheries research team of the time in question.