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#92444 - 07/07/00 06:06 PM a sick sight at the Ballard locks!!!
Brian Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 06/22/99
Posts: 139
Loc: Seattle
I just saw one of the sickest things that I have ever seen. Right here in my back yard. I went down to the locks the other day and I saw the indians completely net off the entire ocean side of the locks off. They had there nets 3 deap. What's up with that? I know that they have a right to there fish but shouldn't they be at the mouth of the rivers? I know we have an abundance of fish this year but that is just plain sickening!!! There is nothing uglier than see a opening or river choked off!

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#92445 - 07/07/00 07:49 PM Re: a sick sight at the Ballard locks!!!
bank walker Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/26/99
Posts: 771
Brian,
That is a sick sight, but what do you think all of us fisherman are doing out there? Thousands of boats cutting off every fish possible. It has to go both ways i guess, too bad it cant be the right way = no nets!
_________________________
"I have a fair idea of what to expect from the river, and usually, because I fish it that way, the river gives me approximately what I expect of it. But sooner or later something always comes up to change the set of my ways..."
- Roderick Haig-Brown

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#92446 - 07/07/00 08:06 PM Re: a sick sight at the Ballard locks!!!
Cpt.Mike Offline
Alevin

Registered: 11/27/99
Posts: 19
Loc: Washington
Hey Brian,
Go back down to the locks around dark and watch how the indian nets are taken out by the tugs and barges as they leave the locks. This should be a great view with the good weekend coming up. Tugs and barges have the right of way and some of the Captains fish just like you and get distracted and accidents will happen.

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#92447 - 07/07/00 08:27 PM Re: a sick sight at the Ballard locks!!!
Hairball Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 11/13/99
Posts: 116
Loc: Lynnwood

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#92448 - 07/08/00 12:28 AM Re: a sick sight at the Ballard locks!!!
Cracker Offline
Smolt

Registered: 01/11/00
Posts: 93
Loc: Kenmore, Wa, USA
Brian, what you've witnessed is a common site on rivers all over the state, not just the locks. It's a real bummer to have one hook in the water and compete with a net that chokes a river. What will really piss you off is when you see natives, or commercials bury their catch in the dirt to protest low selling prices. The dairy farmers did it last week on TV, pouring their product in the dirt. Who the F()CK does that help?

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#92449 - 07/09/00 02:18 PM Re: a sick sight at the Ballard locks!!!
KNOPHISH Offline
Spawner

Registered: 03/09/99
Posts: 511
Loc: AUBURN,WA,USA
MAN WHATS UP WITH THIS STUFF??? IF THEY ARE NETTING THE LOCKS, WHY DO THEY GET TO NET THE LAKE TOO? AND CLOSE IT TO THE SPORTIES? FOUR DAYS NETTING THE LAKE IS GONNA CLEAN EM OUT. BUT WHAT AN AWESOME FISHERY SO FAR. YOU WAIT IN LINE LONGER THEN YOU FISH. THIS IS SOME FINE EATING FISH. TIME TO GET THE SMOKER GOING.

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#92450 - 07/10/00 08:47 AM Re: a sick sight at the Ballard locks!!!
backlash2 Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 02/09/00
Posts: 252
Loc: Pasco, WA
Ya know, it's almost funny. Every interview I've seen over here(Richland) since the season opened up is of a WDFW 'official' of some sort, stating that recovery methods really do work. In their next breath, they always say "the fisherman need to be careful in identifying their catch, with the presence of ESA listed chinook. If we see fisherman are killing ANY chinook at all, we'll shut it down."
Better yet, put a bunch of nets in the water. That makes sense?!?
_________________________
Hey, you gonna eat that?

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#92451 - 07/10/00 09:28 AM Re: a sick sight at the Ballard locks!!!
Aerofly Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 05/25/00
Posts: 180
Loc: Seattle
Point well put Backlash2. Agreed

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#92452 - 07/10/00 04:05 PM Re: a sick sight at the Ballard locks!!!
rainycity Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 12/06/99
Posts: 434
Loc: Seattle
Anybody else seen them fishing with rods and reels since it opened waiting for the chance to string nets?
_________________________
Teach your kids,
Ever wonder why Noah didn`t just
slap them 2 mosquitos????

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#92453 - 07/10/00 04:50 PM Re: a sick sight at the Ballard locks!!!
B. Gray Offline
Spawner

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 633
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
There was a net boat trolling around the madness at the 520 bridge Sunday morning but they sure didn't look like tribal members. Also didn't look like they knew what they were doing with their bananna weights...

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#92454 - 07/10/00 09:17 PM Re: a sick sight at the Ballard locks!!!
elmtree Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 02/16/00
Posts: 274
Loc: spanaway,wash, 98387us
Now lets step back here a moment. I remember the bolt decision was on native fishiers of the indian, i mean indian Nations. So why do they get to net these sockeye's which are not native to the lake and or locks.
Have we pushed the envelope too far here?
These fish as i have read on other threads were started way back in the 30's and 40's when the changed the flow of the green and other tributaries some into Lake Washington. But the other rivers still have their native run of fish and these fish were brought in from out of state at first and then from hatcheries off other river systems.

Iam i making any sense here? These fish are not part of their hertiage and should not be part of their fishiers. Sme thing goes for Herschel and his buddies; now i do say bring out the guns, or at least the dart rifles.

elmtree (woody)
_________________________
elmtree (woody)

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#92455 - 07/10/00 09:38 PM Re: a sick sight at the Ballard locks!!!
Cracker Offline
Smolt

Registered: 01/11/00
Posts: 93
Loc: Kenmore, Wa, USA
Nice point elmtree! Never thought of it in that sense. I'm so torn on the Native American argument. Having grown up here I can sympathize their plight, trying to keep their Heritage and all. On the other hand I have seen some pretty sad stories around their casino's and the money they make off of them. Where does that money go? What does a smoky casino and gambling have to do with Native American Heritage? In my (be it very simple) mind, I say fish and hunt and keep the heritage, or join the future and work the casino to your advantage, not both. But what do I know, I was born white and privileged...... and fought my way out of the beautiful city of White Center with a couple of Yakima Natives friends in the 70's! Funny thing about my Yakima friends though, they have jobs and buy fishing license's to go fishing with me.
Things that make you go hmmmmm....Tight Lines

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#92456 - 07/10/00 09:57 PM Re: a sick sight at the Ballard locks!!!
elmtree Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 02/16/00
Posts: 274
Loc: spanaway,wash, 98387us
Hey Cracker;Yea iam one of those privleged whites also, ecept iam from the sixties growing up when i first got to the Puyallup.
Both my Dad and Mom had to work to keep food on the table and a roof over head. Yeah we are the lucky ones. Never had to eat Mac and Cheese all week long till the house payment got made.
I understand that they need the fish and deer and elk for ceremonial reason's to keep their hertiage alive and in the minds of the young, but it is the young whom are out fishing and where does the money go that they reap. It is suppose to go to the tribe in whole and be divided out equally, of course the fishier man gets a slightly higher amount. I will bet that almost none of the proceeds go to the tribes funds. I say this because unless someone can tell me that netting fish to sell wholesale is making a lot of mony, i think not. It is not a viable method to follow for the Indian Nations.
Go ahead with the smoke shops, fireworks, casino's and alchol sales, that is where the tribes make or break it.
Come on and join the real world, become part of the soltion and not the blame for the problem that now exist.
Nativeson, letty, honestly, do your people make enough money from netting fish to persue it as a function of tribal economy support?
Lets look at this way, cost of boat, motor, nets gear, time on water. repair cost upkeep, gas truck trailer, ok, no liscense for the trailer, but still have to maintain it. Add these cost into the profit from the fish sold at wholesale per pound. I just can not see it adding up to be something the is a profit making venture. And in these times, profit is what everyone, including the Native American Indians are trying to make. I agree, they need to make money, BIA, does not coer much help. Just look at the proverty on tribal lands, the lack of medical and education on tribal lands. Yeah the Puyallups have now got a brand new school for native and non native students. I know some people whom work there and it is a good school. But fishing did not pay for it, in fact, i helped pay for it out of my money which goes into the federal funds.
So iam not bashing indian rights, only indiscretion that it is not cost effective anymore. Thank you all.
elmtree (woody)

[This message has been edited by elmtree (edited 07-10-2000).]

[This message has been edited by elmtree (edited 07-10-2000).]
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elmtree (woody)

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#92457 - 07/10/00 11:47 PM Re: a sick sight at the Ballard locks!!!
stlhead Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 6830
The tribe has always netted the locks. When they stopped because of too few fish the sea lions moved in and every one wanted to kill the sea lions. Bet there are no sea lions in there while the nets are in. I never understood the media hype over the sea lions when you've witnessed first hand the tribal netting in that man made channel. There's no comparison.
_________________________
"You learn more from losing than you do from winning." Lou Pinella

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#92458 - 07/11/00 12:01 PM Re: a sick sight at the Ballard locks!!!
obsessed Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 07/28/99
Posts: 493
Loc: Seattle, WA, USA
I've wondered about this issue; a tribal fishery on a non-native run. I haven't looked into the legalities of it, but I presume its a 'Usual and Accustomed Fishing Grounds' issue. If they've always fished Lake WA, then they can continue to do so under the treaties, regardless of the species. This makes sense, particularly if fisheries were lost when the Cedar was re-routed, but I'm guessing here. Salmo G., care to comment here.

As for fisheries making money or not, the tribes can join that club with the commercials. Whether something is viable or not does not mean they can't pursue it. And like the commercials that still fish dwindling numbers of Puget Sound and WA coast fish, they do it part time, to supplement other income.

As far as the tribes vs marine mammals, well at least the tribes don't fish when escapement goals can't be met. The marine mammals, particularly with their protected status, can do some serious damage in down years. And there was nary a California sea lion in Puget Sound 20 years ago.

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#92459 - 07/11/00 01:26 PM Re: a sick sight at the Ballard locks!!!
potter Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 11/08/99
Posts: 207
Loc: Pacific Beach, WA, USA
Elmtree, fishing net is feast or famine. Some, with good grounds make a lot of money. Others supplement their income by fishing. Last year 15,000 hatchery coho were caught on the Quinault by gill netters. At 8 pound average and .80 cents per pound this figures out to be 96,000 dollars for one species. That amount of money helps out the local economy. An execellent run can mean feast. A poor run famine.

Equipment costs are not all that high. Only a few trailers around and are shared. Two hemlock poles lashed to the bumper (Indian Trailer) will get the boat from the house to the river! Most boats are kept in the river. Many grounds don't even require a motor.

[This message has been edited by potter (edited 07-11-2000).]

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#92460 - 07/11/00 01:39 PM Re: a sick sight at the Ballard locks!!!
Native son Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 06/10/00
Posts: 193
Loc: port angeles wa.
If all it takes to cancel out a fishery treaty is enviromental chages then they all would be gone. I can not think of but a few streams or rivers that haven't been altered by the heavy hand of man. Dams dikes rechaneling all these are similar to the great change in Lake Washington area rivers. Maybe you should look elsewhere for your justification to shut down a legal sanctioned fishery.

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#92461 - 07/11/00 01:53 PM Re: a sick sight at the Ballard locks!!!
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13521
Brian, Elmtree, and others,

Regarding net fishing downstream of the locks: You don't have to like it, so I'm not going to bother discussing the merits of treaty or commercial fishing. Seek, however, to understand the purpose of commercial fishing. The purpose of commercial fishing is to catch fish, lots of fish, as fast and efficiently as possible. It is not the purpose of commercial fishing to allow fish to swim on by. Conservation is achieved by having closed periods and closed areas. A fish run is projected at a certain run size, and a harvestable surplus is determined (we won't talk about accuracy here). Those fish that are deemed harvestable exist only to be caught in the minds of managers. So the job of the commercials, whether they are treaty or non-treaty, is to get in there and harvest their allocation. As long as the recreational fish allocation and the spawning escapement make it through, I have to ask you, why do you care how, when, or where, or why the treaty fishermen take their allocation. What is there to find sickening about it? Unless you have a quarrel with treaty fishing in general. And if you do, I'm not posting here to argue about it. You have your perogative. I think, however, it's beneficial for us all to be clear about our issues. So if the issue isn't treaty fishing, but is about nets at the locks, I have to ask what's the difference. The nets could be set or drifted out of Shilshole to the same end; i.e. the allocated treaty harvestable will be caught, somewhere. And actually, the closer the fishing occurs to the terminal area, the more precisely it can be managed by those empowered to do it. Consequently, I can make no case against netting at the locks.

Regarding the treaty fishery and non-native species: Elmtree, the treaty is silent on origin of fish, as there were no hatcheries or fish transplants in the 1850s. The treaties are clear about "usual and accustomed fishing areas," and Boldt clarified that to mean basically anywhere in the various treaty tribes marine waters or river drainages where any Indian may have fished at one time or another historically. That's the long way of saying damn near everywhere.

Regarding who gets the money from treaty fishing: The treaty fishing right is the property of the treaty tribe. A tribe is entitled to franchise an individual to exercise the right. It's comparable to the state fishing "privelege." The state issues/sells licenses to recreational and commercial fishermen, which is a franchise of sorts. Then we licensed anglers exercise our fishing privelege. Most treaty fishermen pay a landing tax to their tribe on their catch just as non-treaty fishermen pay a landing tax to the state.

This post was not intended to bash any of you who contributed to this thread. My intended contribution is that of clarity, and I'm sure you'll let me know if I've not succeeded. I do apologize if this post offends anyone.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

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#92462 - 07/11/00 02:34 PM Re: a sick sight at the Ballard locks!!!
KNOPHISH Offline
Spawner

Registered: 03/09/99
Posts: 511
Loc: AUBURN,WA,USA
OK NOW I WONDER HOW MANY CHINOOK THOSE NETS ARE GETTING WHEN THE FISH ARE SUPPOSED TO BE PROTECTED. OH YEAH THE TRIBES GET TO HUNT ELK THAT ARE NON NATIVE. THEY WEREN'T HERE WHEN THE TREATIES WERE SIGNED. OH WAIT IT'S THE USUAL AND ACCUSTOMED HUNTING GROUNDS LOOP HOLE AGAIN. DAMMIT

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#92463 - 07/11/00 02:51 PM Re: a sick sight at the Ballard locks!!!
backlash2 Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 02/09/00
Posts: 252
Loc: Pasco, WA
I am not posting on this thread to bash indian tribal fishing. I am still curious though, as to why the WDFW will very publicly let everyone know that the blade of the gillotene(?) is already raised in the air, waiting to drop at a moments notice on the recreational fishery if a chinook or two gets wacked accidentally. If these few fish are so god damned precious(which they are), why do we continue to allow indiscriminate net fisheries? You can only be as selective as your equipment allows, and we all know about nets.
_________________________
Hey, you gonna eat that?

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