KNOPHISH,glad to see that you're cap lock button works,but come on,natives have hunted Elk long before our ancestors arrived, now I do not agree with some of the wastefull tactics that I have read about and witnessed,I come upon more than 1 elk that was left for waste with a half assed butcher job with just the hind quarters and backstraps gone let alone the ones they decided not to chase after don't get me going especially on that Dosewallups herd or all the limping cows I've seen up on the Hamma Hamma RRRRRGGGGG...nuff said I beleive it's a small few that are giving the rest a bad name....I need a time outI knew this would happen

[This message has been edited by Osprey (edited 07-11-2000).]

I was under the impression that there is a north lake population of fish that needed protection hence the boundary of the 520 floating bridge. Maybe the state can tell when the north lake fish are in danger of the nets or have passed?......No chance of any mistakes? I am not convinced.
thank you ...sully

If nets were truly 'indiscriminant', then considering the amount of net fishing that goes on, the endangered stocks would be gone. The nets are regulated seasonally and by managing the acceptable take of ESA fish. Sporties typically get the short end of the stick regarding the acceptable take of ESA fish. The mainstem Columbia springer fishery is a prime example where all acceptable take was given to the tribes, hence no sport fishery.

I think publically, WDFW does not consider this controversial. The Tribes will always get first dibs and if there is no more margin for the take of protected species, than the recreational fisheries will be cut off. This is policy and it follows Federal ESA laws as well as the courts interpretations of the Treaties.

In the case of Lake WA sockeye and the protected chinook, its awful early in the season for the Cedar River summer chinooks. WDFW should, however, take care to monitor net catches since there has been a marked tendency for runs to be early this season.

I guess my bottom line is, people tend to think of this as an example of the grossest mis-management of the resources. I don't believe it to be mis-management, I do believe it to be a somewhat unfair allocation to sporties. I also believe that the treaties are correctly interpreted and administered and hence, the only way to reduce netting is to approach the Tribes with alternatives and incentives not to net.

Thank you everyone for venting with me along with some helpful information given from above. The thing that I don't understand is, who's counting the tribal counts? Who is to say that they have had there fair share? I can't even go out in Lake Washington fishing for a day with out some fish cop pulling up next to you and dam near breaking you poles off sitting in the downrigger, just to see if you are legal or not ( most of you have had this experience). You sure don't see pressure like that on the tribal members, right? While Steelheading on a few Peninsula rivers I've seen the whole dam thing choked off even when their suppose to already have there fish!!! I suppose there just going for a different species right, right! This doesn't just have to do with the sockeye, it's every specie whether it be fish or big game. White man pays, white man looses, where is the justice. Please do not be affendend the truth hurts! Nuff said.

Thank you everyone for venting with me along with some helpful information given from above. The thing that I don't understand is, who's counting the tribal counts? Who is to say that they have had there fair share? I can't even go out in Lake Washington fishing for a day with out some fish cop pulling up next to you and dam near breaking you poles off sitting in the downrigger, just to see if you are legal or not ( most of you have had this experience). You sure don't see pressure like that on the tribal members, right? While Steelheading on a few Peninsula rivers I've seen the whole dam thing choked off even when their suppose to already have there fish!!! I suppose there just going for a different species right, right! This doesn't just have to do with the sockeye, it's every specie whether it be fish or big game. White man pays, white man looses, where is the justice. Please do not be affendend the truth hurts! Nuff said.

Hmmm, what fish were the nets at West Point targeting? I understand this fishery has a maximum of 17 Chinook, afterward the chinook may only be retained if they are dead when the nets are pulled.?

Brian

The truth is, now it sounds like whining. The tribal nets are being monitored. The original netting schedule was devised to estimate the amount of fish the Tribes would take. Just as the recreational season was set to estimate the amount of sport take. All of this is in excess of whats necessary for escapement. Actually, I think the timing of the tribal nets are being limited more by chinook bycatch than sockeye catch. Given when the nets come out, there will be a lot of sockeye left for sporties.

They may even up the limit to 6 fish like they did in 96. If your being harrassed by the gamies, take it up with WDFW.

Obessed, you seem to understand what i was getting at. I do not condmen the tribal fishier for taking fish. I, even with with Potter's numbers still do not think that the limited way the fish, even blocking off the entire river bank to bank, which does piss me off, still does not for the man hours put in average out the same as the big commerial's.
See folks, if you spend 4-6 hours per day that can be out netting, added in cost of overhead, wear and tear, repair and maintence and replacement cost and divide into the gross $96,000.00 you don't get [Bleeeeep!] for an hourly pay and total income.
All these factors have to be looked at to make a honest estimate of value. Yes, hertiage is well above any dollor value and does not figure into this.
I have not had any problems in the last 5-6 years with native tribal fishierman, as they come thru most will ask for us to hold out for a 15-20 minute break. So i see what the ones on some of the inlamd rivers are catching. Potter, nowhere even near the amount of fish the coastals catch, we don't have the fish left to catch most of the time, this year is an exception.
But instead of famine, why not pursue a more steady source of income that will bennefit all the tribal nations, which some are doing very well at and others still floundering with; other means of good gross income.
Yes letty, you make good money selling us dumb white folks alot of fishing time in your boats, and guess what, you deserve it!
If you can take a boat full of po\eople out fishing 4-6 times a week and sometimes 2 times aday for hard cash, why not. This is the real world of ecomonic's 101.

Iam have just tried to say in around about way, that there are more ways to make a good sound income for the tribal memebers other than netting fish that are falling of the face of the earth as fast as the ozone is depleting the atomsphere.
Thanks for letting me speak my peace, long and dry as it may be, but i feel that we all need to come up and start to live in the new world, which requires new idea's along with the memories of old.

elmtree (woody)

The sea lions have been here longer than people think. They were en mass in the Everett area in the late 70's and 80's.
Like I said the tribes have always netted the locks. Yes it's easy pickings and not too ancestorial but also it's a hazard to boat traffic. Why not just drape a net right over the fish ladder and get your share that way? Is that any less spiritual or ancestorial?
As for the Tribal elk hunting before our ancestors...the Roosevelt Elk, if I remember my history correctly, were named after Teddy Roosevelt. I believe it was under his administration or there after that they were introduced to the Olympic Penninsula.

i thought this page was to share hot tips to fishing and the best info the net could provide,i get on here and see a bunch of cry bags not getting there fair cut, i bet the skipper on the charter boat out of westport was a saint also, what a black for the ocean fisherman, as always one bad apple.....
if you watched the news this morning you would see how good things are be watched, they shut down the sockeye net fishery due to low numbers, but the sport fishery is still a go, thats fair right???? i think so and no one had to march down to the capital to get it done, you people blow everything out of whack and make a stink bigger than it really is, give it a rest, melow out, go fishing, its not that bad, really, cant we all just get along!!!!!things will work out all we have to do is work together, not start a fight before have heard both sides and thing we are both right, anyway!!!!!!!!

Well fret about this subject no more. It looks like it's getting shut down for everyone. it was good while it lasted.Take a look! http://www.msnbc.com/local/king/704.asp what happened to the 600,000+ fish. This is the reason they should have waited another week before opening up the fishery.I belive in the past it has'nt opened until mid july,

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Elmtree, I think we are SLOWLY seeing a shift away from fishing and into other types of employment on the rez. Right now the economy is robust. Many of the jobs are seasonal though.

p.s. I've never taken any dumb white men fishing. A few crazy ones though!

Potter, What about a hairball type??

Sorry, Stlhd but you're dead wrong on that one. The Olympic subspecies of elk (or wapiti) is native to the Olympic Peninsula as well as Vancouver Island. It also happens to be the largest of all the elk subspecies. The association with Teddy Roosevelt came about when he established the Olympic National Monument (which later became the Olympic National Park) to halt the destruction of the elk herds by market hunters who were primarily interested in obtaining the teeth which were an absolutely necessary adornment for the watch chains of Elks Club members of the day. The teeth were frequently the only thing that was taken.

stlhead, correct me if I'm wrong but here on the eastside we have Rocky Mtn Elk, as in Rocky Mountains! I believe these Mtns around here are called the Cascades! Our elk were imported... Yet there still is that so called ancesterial right. Go figure....

I was under the impression there were the orginal Olympic elk and imported Roosevelt elk in our area.

I can't find the reference I want, but try this: "Elk or Wapiti (Cervus elaphus)Vancouver Island, much of central and western Washington, western Oregon to northwestern California; central Manitoba to south central Colorado; central Saskatchewan to Manitoba; isolated populations in California, Utah, Minnesota, Oklahoma, Nevada, South Dakota, and Michigan; very small numbers in several eastern states, notably Virginia and Pennsylvania. Great numbers in Colorado, Wyoming, Montana and Washington." Elk once ranged over most of what is now the United States and southern Canada. The Rocky Mountain subspecies, Cervus elaphus nelsoni, is found in (surprise) the Rockies as well as central Washington. The Olympic subspecies (C.e. rooseveltii) is found on the Olympic Peninsula and in the Willapa hills as well as Vancouver Island. A small group of Roosevelt elk from the Willapa hills apparently swam the Cowlitz River and established themselves on the western slopes of Mount St. Helens before the eruption. I don't know if anyone has determined whether the elk currently inhabiting that area are nelsoni or rooseveltii.

Preston, you are correct, the Roosevelt are a sub species, they were not planted ,the only elk that were planted were done so on a few islands in Alaska,these were taken from Olymic Natl. park.The other sub species is called the tule elk these are found in Calif. These are smaler in size and such ,the differencs between the species is because of habitat the Roosevelt have larger bodies and horn m*** ( weight) because of the abondant food source available and brushy terrain ,the Rocky Mount Elk were considered a plains animal ,therefor their body size is slighty smaller with taller horns not the m*** or weight of the Roosevelts .On a genetic level they are all the same animal, the changes in bodies and horn m*** is due to their adaptation to their different geograghical ares of the country.
Olympic national park was originaly called Olympic natl monument,Roosevelt wanted it changed to Elk natl. monument,all to preserve this large herd of Elk.This entire area ( it has been reduced over the years) was set a side by people who had foresite...for some reason they had this notion to try and preserve a natural resource for futher generations to hunt and enjoy...go figure WOW what a concept

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Row Quietly and fish a Cataraft }<<(('>----<'))>>{
Release all Wild Fish

[This message has been edited by Osprey (edited 07-13-2000).]

Preston, I have attended numurous wildlife meetings over the years. I have never heard anyone argue conclusive evidence that elk existed here in eastern wash. prior to the plants from Yellowstone in the early 1900's. They have found some evidence of the indians using elk parts in the early days but they have not proven that they came from eastern wash. I personally think they traded other indians from outside the area to obtain these elk "parts". A logical guess would be they traded with indians from either Idaho/western Montana or from some coastal tribes.. In attending many of these meetings, I have never heard any of the Yakamas talk of their ancestors hunting elk. I feel that if they ever did it would have been brought forward along time ago.. So in your description of where the elk roamed I can agree with you for the most part but when you say wash. it should be western wash.

Horn hunter , you have a point . Oregon`s native elk were almost extinct by the 1800s. The only herds remaing were on the coast . In 1912 there were 15 elk transplanted from Jackson Hole Wyoming to somewhere around Joesph Or. There were 2 mature bulls in the herd , the larger nick named " Roosevelt " and the other bull named "taft" . All the elk that we have today on the east side are descendants of these 15 elk ...