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#927651 - 04/20/15 01:54 PM Re: Sound Summer Chinook Season - how did we get here? [Re: Chasin' Baitman]
Chasin' Baitman Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 08/15/12
Posts: 253
I can't help but think about the parallels between this and the "disenrollment" craze sweeping many tribes with casinos. With diminishing casino revenues they are becoming absolutely cutthroat. Scary stuff.

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#927690 - 04/20/15 05:57 PM Re: Sound Summer Chinook Season - how did we get here? [Re: Chasin' Baitman]
Chasin' Baitman Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 08/15/12
Posts: 253
http://nwsportsmanmag.com/editors-blog/unsworth-takes-radio-explain-area-10-king-closure/

Has the "conservation footing" the tribes have adopted ever been specified? I have not seen any evidence of that.

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#927691 - 04/20/15 06:05 PM Re: Sound Summer Chinook Season - how did we get here? [Re: Chasin' Baitman]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Originally Posted By: Chasin' Baitman
http://nwsportsmanmag.com/editors-blog/unsworth-takes-radio-explain-area-10-king-closure/

Has the "conservation footing" the tribes have adopted ever been specified? I have not seen any evidence of that.


You may need Sherlock Holmes on staff to suss out that evidence...but I think Moriarty will still have the last laugh in this case.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#927692 - 04/20/15 06:06 PM Re: Sound Summer Chinook Season - how did we get here? [Re: Chasin' Baitman]
gregsalmon Offline
Spawner

Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 534
Loc: alaska and washington
Our fish managers managed the fish, till they were gone.

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#927700 - 04/20/15 07:30 PM Re: Sound Summer Chinook Season - how did we get here? [Re: Chasin' Baitman]
bushbear Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 4709
Loc: Sequim
The following was pulled from the NOAA hatchery steelhead evaluation report from the Dungeness, Nooksack, and Stillaguamish rivers. It starts on page 8. I've tried to edit out the line numbers so it reads a little cleaner. I think it outlines a major part of our problems with the co-managers. NOAA is in the mix but their actions, or lack thereof, are driven by the federal responsibility to the tribal treaties.


http://www.westcoast.fisheries.noaa.gov/hatcheries/hgmp/ew_steelhead_proposed_eval_draft_ea.html


1.5.4. Executive Order 12898
In 1994, the President issued Executive Order 12898, Federal Actions to Address Environmental Justice in Minority and Low-income Populations. The objectives of the Executive Order include developing Federal agency implementation strategies, identifying minority and low-income populations where proposed Federal actions could have disproportionately high and adverse human health and environmental effects, and encouraging the participation of minority and low-
income populations in the NEPA process. Changes in hatchery production have the potential to affect the extent of harvest available for minority and low-income populations.

1.5.5. Treaties of Point Elliot, Medicine Creek, and Point No Point
Beginning in the mid-1850s, the United States entered into a series of treaties with tribes in Puget Sound. The treaties were completed to secure the rights of the tribes to land and the use of natural resources in their historically inhabited areas, in exchange for the ceding of land to the United States for settlement by its citizens. These treaties secured the rights of tribes for taking fish at usual and accustomed grounds and stations in common with all citizens of the United
States. Marine and freshwater areas of Puget Sound were affirmed as the usual and accustomed fishing areas for treaty tribes under U.S. v. Washington (1974).

The Lummi Nation, Nooksack Tribe, Stillaguamish Tribe, and Tulalip Tribes are signatory to the Treaty of Point Elliot, the lands settlement treaty between the United States government and the Native American tribes of the North Puget Sound and Strait of Georgia regions, in the recently formed Washington Territory. The Treaty of Point Elliot was signed on January 22, 1855, at Muckl-te-oh or Point Elliott, now Mukilteo, Washington.

The Jamestown S’Klallam Tribe is signatory to the Treaty of Point No Point, the lands settlement treaty between the United States government and the Native American tribes of the Strait of Juan
de Fuca and Hood Canal regions (then, the S'Klallam, the Chimakum, and the Skokomish Tribes), also in the recently-formed Washington Territory. The Treaty of Point No Point was signed on January 26, 1855, at Hahdskus – the Salish dialect name for Point No Point – on the northern tip of the Kitsap Peninsula.

1.5.6. U.S. v. Washington
U.S. v. Washington (1974) is the Federal court proceeding that enforces and implements reserved treaty fishing rights with regards to salmon and steelhead returning to Puget Sound. Hatcheries inPuget Sound provide salmon and steelhead for these fisheries. Without many of these hatcheries, there would be few, if any, fish for the tribes to harvest. These fishing rights and attendant access were established by treaties that the Federal government signed with the tribes in the 1850s. In those treaties, the tribes agreed to allow the peaceful settlement of Indian lands in western Washington in exchange for their continued right to fish, gather shellfish, hunt, and exercise other sovereign rights. Under Phase II of U.S. v. Washington, the Federal District Court ensured tribes the rights to the protection of fish habitat subject to treaty catch and a right to the fish that are produced by hatcheries. In 1974, Judge George Boldt decided in U.S. v. Washington that the tribes’ fair and equitable share was 50 percent of all of the harvestable fish destined for the tribes’ traditional fishing places.

1.5.7. Secretarial Order 3206
Secretarial Order 3206 (American Indian Tribal Rights, Federal-Tribal Trust Responsibilities and the ESA) issued by the secretaries of the Departments of Interior and Commerce, clarifies the responsibilities of the agencies, bureaus, and offices of the departments when actions taken under the ESA and its implementing regulations affect, or may affect, Indian lands, tribal trust resources, or the exercise of American Indian tribal rights as they are defined in the Order. Secretarial Order 3206 acknowledges the trust responsibility and treaty obligations of the United States toward tribes and tribal members, as well as its government-to-government relationship when corresponding with tribes. Under the Order, NMFS and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (Services) “will carry out their responsibilities under the [ESA] in a manner that harmonizes the Federal trust responsibility to tribes, tribal sovereignty, and statutory missions of the [Services], and that strives to ensure that Indian tribes do not bear a disproportionate burden for the conservation of listed species, so as to avoid or minimize the potential for conflict and confrontation.” More specifically, the Services shall, among other things, do the following:
1.5.8.
Work directly with Indian tribes on a government-to-government basis to promote healthy ecosystems (Sec. 5, Principle 1)
Recognize that Indian lands are not subject to the same controls as Federal public lands (Sect. 5, Principle 2)
Assist Indian tribes in developing and expanding tribal programs so that healthy ecosystems are promoted and conservation restrictions are unnecessary (Sec. 5, Principle 3)
Be sensitive to Indian culture, religion, and spirituality (Sec. 5, Principle 4)
The Federal Trust Responsibility

The United States government has a trust or special relationship with Indian tribes. The unique and distinctive political relationship between the United States and Indian Tribes is defined by statutes, executive orders, judicial decisions, and agreements and differentiates tribes from other entities that deal with, or are affected by the Federal government. Executive Order 13175, Consultation and Coordination with Indian Tribal Governments, states that the United States has recognized Indian tribes as domestic dependent nations under its protection. The Federal government has enacted numerous statutes and promulgated numerous regulations that establish and define a trust relationship with Indian tribes. The relationship has been compared to one existing under common law trust, with the United States as trustee, the Indian tribes or individuals as beneficiaries, and the property and natural resources of the United States as the trust corpus (Cohen 2005; Newton et al. 2005). The trust responsibility has been interpreted to require Federal agencies to carry out their activities in a manner that is protective of Indian treaty rights. This policy is also reflected in the March 30, 1995, document, Department of Commerce – American Indian and Alaska Native Policy (U. S. Department of Commerce 1995).

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#927721 - 04/20/15 09:18 PM Re: Sound Summer Chinook Season - how did we get here? [Re: Chasin' Baitman]
GodLovesUgly Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 04/20/09
Posts: 1270
Loc: WaRshington
I guess I don't understand the entire dynamic behind the process. How is it that. One unique sector of the co-managers can throw a trump card at the last minute? What is the point of negotiating if the end all be all is a stern and foreboding "sorry, no".

The "low snowpack, warm summer" argument is based on speculation. WDFWs models are based on science.

If the mucks said "no" why wouldnt the state then also say "no" and not agree to their terms. Both user groups need permits to operate, and if the argument is over conservation then NO ONE fishes. Force a stalemate, no permits should be issued until terms are met for BOTH groups....

This sets dangerous precedent if this policy goes unchanged..... What's to stop the tribes from just saying "no" to each and every last NOF proposal knowing now that crying like a baby and stomping their feet will get them their way.

It seems to me the process is beyond broken. I think it may be time for some Supreme Court inquisition into this "process".....
_________________________
When I grow up I want to be,
One of the harvesters of the sea.
I think before my days are done,
I want to be a fisherman.

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#927748 - 04/21/15 05:19 AM Re: Sound Summer Chinook Season - how did we get here? [Re: Chasin' Baitman]
Jerry Garcia Offline



Registered: 10/13/00
Posts: 9160
Loc: everett
If the mucks said "no" why wouldnt the state then also say "no" and not agree to their terms. Both user groups need permits to operate, and if the argument is over conservation then NO ONE fishes. Force a stalemate, no permits should be issued until terms are met for BOTH groups....


I believe that in the long run this would have been the best decision.
_________________________
would the boy you were be proud of the man you are

Growing old ain't for wimps
Lonnie Gane

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#927753 - 04/21/15 07:03 AM Re: Sound Summer Chinook Season - how did we get here? [Re: Chasin' Baitman]
Happy Birthday Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
It would require saying "no" to the Tribes. That word is not in the State of WA vocabulary.

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#927771 - 04/21/15 09:35 AM Re: Sound Summer Chinook Season - how did we get here? [Re: Carcassman]
CedarR Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 08/04/99
Posts: 1463
Loc: Olympia, WA
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
It would require saying "no" to the Tribes. That word is not in the State of WA vocabulary.


Neither is casiNO. State recently "negotiated" an agreement with the tribes that would allow them to double the number of slots they presently have over the next decade. Wonder what benefit the state received for that?

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#927773 - 04/21/15 09:39 AM Re: Sound Summer Chinook Season - how did we get here? [Re: Chasin' Baitman]
Chasin' Baitman Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 08/15/12
Posts: 253
I'll ask the impolite question...

How few fish is too few? Nobody wants a fish run to disappear OF COURSE, but when do you throw in the towel?

The entire system is being managed for literally a few dozen fish that have shown no signs of recovery. Not to mention all the bad blood that's arisen between people over this. On the surface, it doesn't seem to make alot of sense. These fish are holding us hostage.

Seattle is exploding and even more habitat loss is inevitable. The future is not bright for these wild fish. Hatcheries were created to mitigate habitat loss. A hatchery fish is not as good as a wild fish, but is waaaaaay better than no fish. Maybe let hatcheries do what they were created to do?

In reality I know that throwing in the towel is not viable. Governmental agencies and other groups would not allow it. I'm sure they will manage it right down to zero, and beyond.

But is there a precedent for throwing in the towel on particular conservation efforts, and perhaps using those resources on conservation efforts that show promise? Would anybody have the political will and clout to do that?

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#927776 - 04/21/15 09:52 AM Re: Sound Summer Chinook Season - how did we get here? [Re: Chasin' Baitman]
Happy Birthday Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
ESA allows it. Called the "God Squad". Used in Tennessee, I believe, on the Tellico Darter.

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#927815 - 04/21/15 04:24 PM Re: Sound Summer Chinook Season - how did we get here? [Re: Jerry Garcia]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Originally Posted By: Jerry Garcia
If the mucks said "no" why wouldnt the state then also say "no" and not agree to their terms. Both user groups need permits to operate, and if the argument is over conservation then NO ONE fishes. Force a stalemate, no permits should be issued until terms are met for BOTH groups....


I believe that in the long run this would have been the best decision.


I agree 100% with this.

Recreational impacts on Lake Washington Chinook go down, tribal impacts on Lake Washington Chinook go up, overall impacts on Lake Washington Chinook go up...and this is done as a "conservation measure"?

Doesn't even pass the "do I look fuckin stupid to you?" test.

And...it's not like anyone at WDFW or at the Muckleshoot Tribe is wrong, or can't do basic math...they are lying.

No, I won't qualify it...they can do basic math as well as anyone else, and their math shows the same thing that mine does.

They are straightfaced lying to you.

WDFW, the F&W Commission, Phil Anderson, and the new Director Unsworth should all be ashamed.

The problem is that recreational anglers will just take it in the ass and go out and fish for their "opportunity", which is now less than half the opportunity crammed into half the space.

Enjoy your five day summer Chinook season this year, suckers.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#927818 - 04/21/15 04:45 PM Re: Sound Summer Chinook Season - how did we get here? [Re: Chasin' Baitman]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Well, while I'm busy venting my frustration with this pack of bull$hit that they are selling us on Puget Sound Chinook fisheries this summer, let me say this, too...

I just listened to the first 15 minutes of the Director on NWWC and he is either woefully undereducated, underskilled, and underqualified to do that job, or is a terrible liar himself.

Another reason for the Comission to be ashamed.

My days of being "nice" to the muckety mucks at WDFW are long past in order to preserve my "access" to them, so I will tell it like it is...and this is how it is:

They are lying to you.

Flat out lying to your face.

Your Director, former Director Anderson, the entire negotiating team for WDFW that was at the PFMC, and the Muckleshoot Tribal reps who ever once utter the word "conservation" in regards to this fishery.

Lying.

As long as sportfishermen and our "representatives" allow it to go unchecked then this is what we get, and it's also what we deserve.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#927836 - 04/21/15 06:48 PM Re: Sound Summer Chinook Season - how did we get here? [Re: Chasin' Baitman]
RowVsWade Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 3405
Loc: Island Time
Hard to compete with Casino money and political clout.
_________________________
"...the pool hall I loved as a kid is now a 7-11..."

If you don't like our prices bring your wife down and we'll dicker.

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#927837 - 04/21/15 07:11 PM Re: Sound Summer Chinook Season - how did we get here? [Re: Chasin' Baitman]
Smalma Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 2844
Loc: Marysville
Todd -
Nice rant!!!

I agree with your conservation comments and further that we are getting the what we deserve. In that regard I pretty sure there will be at least one opening on the Puget Sound sport fisheries advisory group and I encourage you to step up as one of our "representatives".

Curt

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#927857 - 04/21/15 08:40 PM Re: Sound Summer Chinook Season - how did we get here? [Re: Chasin' Baitman]
Happy Birthday Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Smalma. After seeing how WDFW handled the Willapa Advisory group by flat out denying that options had been looked at, how can one even think about working "with" them if they act as they do? All they want is a rubber-stamp.

I do know that if we don't participate our input won't be heard but when it is consistently ignored?

Kind of damned if you do damned if you don't.

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#927900 - 04/22/15 10:09 AM Re: Sound Summer Chinook Season - how did we get here? [Re: Smalma]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Originally Posted By: Smalma
Todd -
Nice rant!!!

I agree with your conservation comments and further that we are getting the what we deserve. In that regard I pretty sure there will be at least one opening on the Puget Sound sport fisheries advisory group and I encourage you to step up as one of our "representatives".

Curt



I sure hope you reconsider and stay there, Curt...I know you are you wonderfully humble about it, but you know more than any other three of us about how WDFW works and what needs to be done to get this back on track!

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#927913 - 04/22/15 11:35 AM Re: Sound Summer Chinook Season - how did we get here? [Re: Todd]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Todd
[quote=Jerry Garcia]

They are straightfaced lying to you.

WDFW, the F&W Commission, Phil Anderson, and the new Director Unsworth should all be ashamed.

Todd


And this isn't the first time within the NOF process!

Sadly, it seems to be endemic within WDFW either by directly lying or manipulating data to further the goals of bios and/or upper management. What is even more egregious has been the Commission's failure to put them on the credibility spotlight and insist that the Director and his employees be scrupulous in their professional actions. But being scrupulous means having scruples and by their past actions I am convinced that some of those folks simply don't see their own failures.

No integrity equals no confidence. Simple.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#927919 - 04/22/15 12:26 PM Re: Sound Summer Chinook Season - how did we get here? [Re: Chasin' Baitman]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
The rules are written to ensure that WDFW has the ultimate authority on season setting, which is why entities like the F&W Commission, while they create an illusion of citizen representation, are effectively ineffective. Make no mistake: lawmakers' campaigns are profiting from the status quo, and that is why they will never change it. Want change? We have three options:

1. Stop buying fishing licenses.
2. Outspend the casinos in lobbying.
3. Revolt.

Number 3 is my favorite option, as it fixes all the other BS to which we, as taxpayers, are constantly subjected as well. Because most Americans still have blind, undying faith in their leaders, however, that's still a long ways off.

Number 1 won't happen (too late for this sucker, who shelled out his $100 last week, anyway).

Number 2 could be accomplished relatively easily, IF sport fishers weren't too hung up on their own contentions to join forces toward a common purpose....

Looks like we'll continue to bend over to me.

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#927933 - 04/22/15 02:27 PM Re: Sound Summer Chinook Season - how did we get here? [Re: FleaFlickr02]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4411
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope

All should read Directors Anderson's contract. I have not read Mr. Unsworth's contract but the former Director had total control. He also had a real desire to do what he wanted, in particular in the total disregard of HSRG reform and many other things. So in many ways it is a institutional problem.
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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