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#927524 - 04/18/15 05:23 PM Re: Sound Summer Chinook Season - how did we get here? [Re: ]
Lucky Louie Offline
Carcass

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 2286
Originally Posted By: Myassisdragon

In some fairness here, I believe they're Low Holed by more than just the "Other Tribes" ! By the time the damn fish get to PS, they've been low holed by fifty gazillion multi faction commies, another gazillion recs, and a few other tribes along the way&#133;


Bottom line, the Shoots kill more LW Chinook than all of the other fisheries combined that impact that stock in the state of WA. The Shoots 62%, all the other fisheries combined in the state 38%.
_________________________
The world will not be destroyed by those that are evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything.- Albert Einstein

No you can’t have my rights---I’m still using them





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#927525 - 04/18/15 05:37 PM Re: Sound Summer Chinook Season - how did we get here? [Re: Lucky Louie]
blackmouth Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/05/04
Posts: 2713
Loc: right place/wrong time
Originally Posted By: Lucky Louie
Originally Posted By: Myassisdragon

In some fairness here, I believe they're Low Holed by more than just the "Other Tribes" ! By the time the damn fish get to PS, they've been low holed by fifty gazillion multi faction commies, another gazillion recs, and a few other tribes along the way&#133;


Bottom line, the Shoots kill more LW Chinook than all of the other fisheries combined that impact that stock in the state of WA. The Shoots 62%, all the other fisheries combined in the state 38%.


Yes, but they own a casino which produces a bunch of dollars which they use to promote their agenda with the public and the politicians.

One might call it a license to steal.
_________________________
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."
Winston Churchill

"So it goes." Kurt Vonnegut jr.

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#927528 - 04/18/15 06:25 PM Re: Sound Summer Chinook Season - how did we get here? [Re: Chasin' Baitman]
Jerry Garcia Offline



Registered: 10/13/00
Posts: 9160
Loc: everett
We were low holed by the Muk's at N O F, not negociating in good faith. WDFW had two choices, agree to the new structure to save 9 paper fish or no season. I believe that no season would have been a better deal in the long run. The tribes don't want to be seen as the only ones fishing on depressed stocks so they threw us sporties a bone. Reminds me of the Steelhead Moritorium.
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would the boy you were be proud of the man you are

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#927535 - 04/18/15 08:36 PM Re: Sound Summer Chinook Season - how did we get here? [Re: Chasin' Baitman]
ondarvr Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 1882
Loc: Spokane WA
Those that were there said they were blindsided at the last minute by the Mucks. Everyone thought there was a workable agreement in place that allowed for the opening in area 10, but at the last minute the tribe demanded it be closed along with the Lake Sammamish Chinook fishery. The reason used was possibly poor survival due to the low water and warmer temps expected this summer.

The impact that would have been used by the sportsman for area 10 was used elsewhere to expand other fisheries, I don't know where that was though.

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#927546 - 04/19/15 06:51 AM Re: Sound Summer Chinook Season - how did we get here? [Re: Lucky Louie]
Lucky Louie Offline
Carcass

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 2286
Originally Posted By: Lucky Louie
Bottom line, the Shoots kill more LW Chinook than all of the other fisheries combined that impact that stock in the state of WA. The Shoots 62%, all the other fisheries combined in the state 38%.

If conservation was the Muk’s real concern as stated by them, then they wouldn’t be far and away the highest killer of Lake WA Chinook than any user group in Washington state.
_________________________
The world will not be destroyed by those that are evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything.- Albert Einstein

No you can’t have my rights---I’m still using them





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#927561 - 04/19/15 02:20 PM Re: Sound Summer Chinook Season - how did we get here? [Re: ondarvr]
slabhunter Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 01/17/04
Posts: 3742
Loc: Sheltona Beach
Originally Posted By: ondarvr


The impact that would have been used by the sportsman for area 10 was used elsewhere to expand other fisheries, I don't know where that was though.


It is clearly a fallacy! MA9 has even less opportunity than the original models.

Who is against the new, improved launch at PNP?
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#927572 - 04/19/15 06:52 PM Re: Sound Summer Chinook Season - how did we get here? [Re: Chasin' Baitman]
ondarvr Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 1882
Loc: Spokane WA
They just said "in other locations" no specifics.

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#927595 - 04/19/15 08:41 PM Re: Sound Summer Chinook Season - how did we get here? [Re: slabhunter]
N W Panhandler Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 01/05/07
Posts: 1560
Loc: Bremerton, Wa.
The Suquamish and I think the Port Gamble Skallam have both sent letters against PNP boat ramp to the Army Corp of Engineers, due to usual and accustomed grounds argument. Wdfg was talking to them about two different marine area's to rehab.......seems to be swinging in the wind at the moment. Maybe some movement soon as North of Falcon is over and I' m sure Michel was busy.
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A little common sense is good, more is better.
Kitsap Chapter CCA


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#927608 - 04/19/15 09:27 PM Re: Sound Summer Chinook Season - how did we get here? [Re: Chasin' Baitman]
Chasin' Baitman Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 08/15/12
Posts: 253
Out of curiosity, how did Phil Anderson factor into this? I remember reading (I can't remember where) that Phil had already worked out this deal with the muks, and convinced Unsworth to take it. If that's the case, WDFW couldn't technically have been blindsided.

I heard Unsworth on KJR. He sounded beaten. I know he's new and this is a tough situation, but I didn't hear the voice of a strong leader. I'm hoping he can turn it around.

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#927613 - 04/19/15 09:58 PM Re: Sound Summer Chinook Season - how did we get here? [Re: Chasin' Baitman]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Yes, Suquamish claimed it would interfere with their ability to exercise their Treaty rights. Then they demanded cash up front for future damages and mucho haggling over the locations and extent of mitigation. My understanding is that WDFW resisted the money demand and has bent over backwards to accommodate the mitigation (more within the Suquamish U&A and simply more of it when just removal of the old dock and pilings should have been adequate). Oh, and special use of the site off hours for their fishermen to include parking. That may become another issue of contention not only with recreational users but also the County based upon the public hearings and possible constraints in the County's permit to WDFW. NOAA has given its "no harm" blessing to the Corps which is holding the permit in abeyance pending resolution of issues between WDFW and the Tribe(s); afraid to give the go-ahead with in the face of an unsupported assertion by the Tribe(s).

Oh, did I mention that "we" have over a Million of RCO money tied up in acquisition and design costs? For a walking and kayak park.....
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#927616 - 04/19/15 10:17 PM Re: Sound Summer Chinook Season - how did we get here? [Re: Chasin' Baitman]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12766
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#927617 - 04/19/15 10:29 PM Re: Sound Summer Chinook Season - how did we get here? [Re: Chasin' Baitman]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12766
Not very impressed with his delivery of the why and how.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#927620 - 04/20/15 12:03 AM Re: Sound Summer Chinook Season - how did we get here? [Re: Chasin' Baitman]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Listening to the podcast I actually felt sorry for him. He was obviously not prepared for NOF and even in this after action interview seemed unable to articulate what had occurred. Of course, that is why Anderson was retained to be at his side and maybe Anderson or others should have been party to this interview.

But bottom line, they had numbers they felt they could support and through several months of discussions thought they had a deal then at the last second had the rug pulled out. As Yogi said, "Deja vous all over again." Nope, should have just agreed to disagree and let the chips fall. Enough is enough.

I am having a flashback to the Tribal (Tulalip??) individual who spoke extensively at Sen. Pearson's hearings on the WFC deal espousing the need to work together. Pretty hollow words.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#927621 - 04/20/15 12:06 AM Re: Sound Summer Chinook Season - how did we get here? [Re: Chasin' Baitman]
OceanSun Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 07/01/04
Posts: 1303
Loc: North Creek
Frankly - he sounded like an idiot without a clue. He didn't put together a single articulate line of thought in that entire interview. Completely unqualified to negotiate on our behalf in my opinion. New or not, how can he go into a major negotiation and not know his numbers or be ready with a plan "B"? I'd be fired if I tried to explain the negative results of my negotiations to my boss as lamely as he did. WTF!
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. . . and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and have dominion over the fish of the sea . . .

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#927624 - 04/20/15 06:36 AM Re: Sound Summer Chinook Season - how did we get here? [Re: Chasin' Baitman]
Dogfish Offline
Poodle Smolt

Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 10979
Loc: McCleary, WA
At least the Puget Sound is managed with a priority towards Sports fishing.
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"Give me the anger, fish! Give me the anger!"

They call me POODLE SMOLT!

The Discover Pass is brought to you by your friends at the CCA.

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#927626 - 04/20/15 07:07 AM Re: Sound Summer Chinook Season - how did we get here? [Re: Dogfish]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4394
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
Quote:
Frankly - he sounded like an idiot without a clue. He didn't put together a single articulate line of thought in that entire interview. Completely unqualified to negotiate on our behalf in my opinion. New or not, how can he go into a major negotiation and not know his numbers or be ready with a plan "B"? I'd be fired if I tried to explain the negative results of my negotiations to my boss as lamely as he did.


I had to listen to the show to hear what you folks did. Well not having a huge knowledge of PS I listened to what he was saying and not what I wanted to hear. His description of both tribal & WDF&W staff talking past each other is right on. The process critique also was pretty much on the mark also. So I always try to look through the others eyes and if I was him Holy sh-- comes to mind. Being a newbie he went forward with staff leading the way and had a vertical learning curve. What he was part of is a typical WDF&W thought process of you tribes we WDF&W and all hell broke loose.

I think the only upside is the recognition that with the projected ocean conditions numbers will only get worse. So next year it will be even more difficult but at least he has seen the WDF&W way in the recent past under Anderson at work. I doubt if he will go there again.
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Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#927627 - 04/20/15 07:57 AM Re: Sound Summer Chinook Season - how did we get here? [Re: Chasin' Baitman]
Lucky Louie Offline
Carcass

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 2286
He also was leaning on Ron Warren for information, a person I have no confidence in at the position he holds.
I have read that on the last ten year average in PS the tribes have caught app. 64% of the Chinook and 70 % of the Coho.

At the NOF Millcreek meeting, Warren had the audacity to stand there in front of the sport anglers and state that he wasn’t so concerned on the 50/50 court split as much as quality and dependability of sport seasons. I told him straight out that I disagree with him about the split, and that he representing us sport anglers was pretty scary with his perspective.

Now we still see an uneven split, one less area to fish in for Chinook, and still instability in that particular Chinook fishery. Warren’s way of thinking isn’t working and could get worse. He already has a previous lousy track record in region 6 that didn’t work.

Unsworth needs to fire that worthless POS.
_________________________
The world will not be destroyed by those that are evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything.- Albert Einstein

No you can’t have my rights---I’m still using them





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#927638 - 04/20/15 10:29 AM Re: Sound Summer Chinook Season - how did we get here? [Re: Rivrguy]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Rivrguy
Quote:
Frankly - he sounded like an idiot without a clue. He didn't put together a single articulate line of thought in that entire interview. Completely unqualified to negotiate on our behalf in my opinion. New or not, how can he go into a major negotiation and not know his numbers or be ready with a plan "B"? I'd be fired if I tried to explain the negative results of my negotiations to my boss as lamely as he did.


I had to listen to the show to hear what you folks did. Well not having a huge knowledge of PS I listened to what he was saying and not what I wanted to hear. His description of both tribal & WDF&W staff talking past each other is right on. The process critique also was pretty much on the mark also. So I always try to look through the others eyes and if I was him Holy sh-- comes to mind. Being a newbie he went forward with staff leading the way and had a vertical learning curve. What he was part of is a typical WDF&W thought process of you tribes we WDF&W and all hell broke loose.

I think the only upside is the recognition that with the projected ocean conditions numbers will only get worse. So next year it will be even more difficult but at least he has seen the WDF&W way in the recent past under Anderson at work. I doubt if he will go there again.


As I wrote earlier he was facing his first NOF cluster which is why Anderson was there to help guide him through the process - and we can see how that worked out. I sincerely hope that this has been a learning experience and that he has the managerial skills to avoid a repeat.

As to WDFW and the co-managers talking past one another I simply don't buy that explanation. We've had those fisheries for a couple of years now and the tribes have fought their existence each NOF so why should WDFW have thought this year was going to be different? This was simply lack of preparation and anticipation with no Plan B. (Correspondingly, refer to the PnP ramp resistance)

But after all of that and being scheduled for this program and with all of the adverse reaction he should have been far better prepared to answer for his actions regarding the P.S. marked selective fishery. The hosts were actually quite polite; almost too much so.

Now, what he did mention was that no one apparently had worked out one or more scenarios as to what might happen if the WDFW and the other co-managers could not come to an agreement. Would NOAA not issue a permit thereby precluding ALL Chinook harvest? Or would the Tribal fisheries continue while the rest of us sit on the beach? Or would NOAA take all the information available to them and play Solomon?
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#927647 - 04/20/15 12:07 PM Re: Sound Summer Chinook Season - how did we get here? [Re: Lucky Louie]
stonefish Online   content
King of the Beach

Registered: 12/11/02
Posts: 5205
Loc: Carkeek Park
Originally Posted By: Lucky Louie
He also was leaning on Ron Warren for information, a person I have no confidence in at the position he holds.
I have read that on the last ten year average in PS the tribes have caught app. 64% of the Chinook and 70 % of the Coho.

At the NOF Millcreek meeting, Warren had the audacity to stand there in front of the sport anglers and state that he wasn’t so concerned on the 50/50 court split as much as quality and dependability of sport seasons. I told him straight out that I disagree with him about the split, and that he representing us sport anglers was pretty scary with his perspective.

Now we still see an uneven split, one less area to fish in for Chinook, and still instability in that particular Chinook fishery. Warren’s way of thinking isn’t working and could get worse. He already has a previous lousy track record in region 6 that didn’t work.

Unsworth needs to fire that worthless POS.


Regarding the 50/50 split per the Boldt decision.
Someone mentioned in a thread on another board that fish caught in Alaska and BC count again the non tribal 50% split.

I always thought the 50/50 split was only for fish caught in Washington waters.
Which is correct?
Thanks,
SF
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Founding Member - 2023 Pink Plague Opposition Party
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#927648 - 04/20/15 12:12 PM Re: Sound Summer Chinook Season - how did we get here? [Re: Chasin' Baitman]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The 50:50 split is WA waters. When the US/Canada Treaty was to be signed in the mid-80s the Tribes were threatening to sue to have all WA fish taken in any US fishery counted. AK indicated that they woud not sign the treaty if the Tribes sued. Following negotiations, Bill Wilkerson agreed to the current co-management outline, the suit was more or less dropped, only WA-caught fish counted, and every one lived happily ever after.

Except the fish, who mostly died in nets and on hooks.

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