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#958615 - 06/09/16 07:01 AM Re: The end of Grays Harbor fisheries as we know them? [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The railroads are replacing wood ties with concrete. I have seen the concrete ones in the Columbia Gorge, but don't remember if it was BNSF or Uncle Pete.

The Feds, as overseers of the railroads, could require those upgrades as a safety concern. Write your elected officials.

So, if we don't ship by rail, what is your viable alternative. Or is NIMBY a sufficient reason because it is always somebody's back yard ?

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#958617 - 06/09/16 07:28 AM Re: The end of Grays Harbor fisheries as we know them? [Re: Carcassman]
bob r Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 04/17/13
Posts: 289
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
The railroads are replacing wood ties with concrete. I have seen the concrete ones in the Columbia Gorge, but don't remember if it was BNSF or Uncle Pete.

The Feds, as overseers of the railroads, could require those upgrades as a safety concern. Write your elected officials.

So, if we don't ship by rail, what is your viable alternative. Or is NIMBY a sufficient reason because it is always somebody's back yard ?


ANYWHERE and anyhow except on crappy roadbeds along waterways and NOT near schools, population concentrations, and environmentally sensitive areas until they can show emergency response plans that actually mean something.Having concrete railbeds is a must. There were NOT concrete beds in the Columbia Gorge. Calling people "nimbys" because they don't want under-regulated safety ignoring bomb platforms rolling through their communities is a real stretch, I don't want them in ANYONE'S neighborhood. I'd rather pay higher prices and know someone is held accountable. Anyone who supports the railroads position is a real piece of "work". Bob R

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#958618 - 06/09/16 07:52 AM Re: The end of Grays Harbor fisheries as we know them? [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
I agree that the railroads must be upgraded. Our elected officials should require it.

Just what is a railroad or highway or airport to do when people move there? There was next to nobody in the Gorge, for example, when those lines were built.

Just where can one build any sort of transportation infrastructure that does not cross waterways, not near schools or population centers, or environmentally sensitive areas? Sounds like a good idea, now show me on a map.

What do you mean by an emergency plan that really means something and how will that be applied to all shipments of all hazardous materials by all means?

I am not saying that the current situation is, or should be, acceptable. But I don't see that "no" is an acceptable answer unless a viable alternative that is safer is actually placed on the table.

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#958622 - 06/09/16 08:12 AM Re: The end of Grays Harbor fisheries as we know them? [Re: bob r]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4394
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
This is a bit of a foggy conversation but sticking to the oil being shipped and stored it is a bit different than perception as most things are. First the oil shipped by rail is rather thick and if spilled will make a mess but unless storage tanks are located near the bay rather than well back and piped to the ship that can be managed. That said the problem is the crude shipped by rail has a lot of trapped gases in it and that is the issue. The stuff can go off like a bomb if ignited by a derailment. The rail line travels right through nearly every community from Oakville to Aberdeen as when built we moved our goods by rail not trucks so towns are located around the tracks. The recent derailment ( still being cleaned up ) was about a quarter mile from my house and has taken over a week to clean up and that was grain cars.

Also we are not talking BP here with deep pockets but rather investors that create companies that do not have the cash reserves or assets to cover the cost of a clean up if something went wrong which is the intention otherwise you would see every major oil company charging right in but as it is high risk they will not touch it.


Edited by Rivrguy (06/09/16 10:47 AM)
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#958628 - 06/09/16 09:15 AM Re: The end of Grays Harbor fisheries as we know them? [Re: Rivrguy]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4394
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope

Adding a bit more. Most do not realize that the location of Lakeside Asphalt near Junction City as you come into Aberdeen is the old Standard Oil ( I think Standard ) tank site as when I was a kid oil came in by TANKER and was stored on site in a tank. Add to that the chemicals for the pulp mills did and do come in by truck and rail and believe me many of them are really hazardous. Lord a leak at the Cosy mill sets of alarms to evac all around Cosy. Had to do the dash to a safe area more than once when the alarm went off along with a lot of Cosy folk.

Everything we do in modern society carries risk. Now risk is one thing but Russian roulette with old tracks with and a cargo that can and will explode if it derails is something different. The word stupid comes to mind.
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Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#958629 - 06/09/16 09:25 AM Re: The end of Grays Harbor fisheries as we know them? [Re: eyeFISH]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12766
You retired locals with boats need to set aside July 8 to join an oil protest flotilla led by a delegation from the QIN.

Boats will gather in the Bay and ascend the lower Hoquiam to moor at the new 9th St Landing. From there, particpants will march by foot to Hoquiam City Hall to plead our case.

There are scheduled keynote speakers with time for an open mike at the end.

PM me for details.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#958645 - 06/09/16 07:24 PM Re: The end of Grays Harbor fisheries as we know them? [Re: eyeFISH]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12766
NO Crude Oil Rally/March on Hoquiam City Hall July 8

12:45 PM
Boats/canoes/kayaks converge near NE Rennie Island to begin paddling/motoring up Hoquiam River mouth to 9th St Landing.

1:30 PM
Boats gather at 9th St Landing

2:00-2:40 PM
Boats moor, folks disembark and gather at 9th and Levee St. Anyone (non-boat folks) can join in by foot at this juncture. Buses from Taholah and Queets deliver additional marchers/participants.

2:40 PM
Begin marching to Hoquiam City Hall

3:00 PM
Arrive at Hoquiam City Hall

PROGRAM:
Welcome song/prayer by QIN President Fawn Sharp
QIN President Fawn Sharps speaks
Hoquiam Mayor Dickhoff speaks
Other speakers:
Larry Thevik
Jackie Farra
Other tribal leaders
County Commissioner Frank Gordon
VP Tyson Johnston
Shavaughna
OPEN MIC
Closing song/prayer by Marco Black

4:15 PM
Participants disperse

FOOD: Location TBD.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#958721 - 06/10/16 11:46 PM Re: The end of Grays Harbor fisheries as we know them? [Re: eyeFISH]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12766
Whether by boat or by foot, we NEED you!

http://www.standuptooil.org/take-action/
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#958723 - 06/10/16 11:51 PM Re: The end of Grays Harbor fisheries as we know them? [Re: eyeFISH]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12766
Once this industry gets a foothold in our community, God only knows how much expansion the future holds. Once the area becomes known as a regional crude oil depot, it gives every other place an excuse to keep it coming our way.... we become the sacrificial lamb.

"Ah hell, Grays Harbor's already fukked... just keep the crude oil development there."

Is this what we want for our community?



No thanks.

I'd rather keep this...



_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#958737 - 06/11/16 01:27 PM Re: The end of Grays Harbor fisheries as we know them? [Re: eyeFISH]
Eric Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 3513
Amen Francis!

The recent Mosier(sp?) derailment certainly adds fuel to our fire-pun intended. No doubt the Harbor economy needs help but this ain't it.

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#958752 - 06/11/16 08:37 PM Re: The end of Grays Harbor fisheries as we know them? [Re: eyeFISH]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12766
Not hard to imagine this happening on the Chehalis if the permits go thru.

_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#958754 - 06/11/16 08:59 PM Re: The end of Grays Harbor fisheries as we know them? [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
I wonder that if we continue to over harvest our fish resources and otherwise muck up the habitat that proposals like this may succeed because "you're not using the river to produce fish"

Back in the late 70s WDF developed a plan for Puget Sound salmon that require at least one species pf salmon (Chinook, coho, chum) to be managed on a wild basis in order to ensure the ability to protect habitat. I would not be surprised if a smart business looked at how a watershed is actually managed versus what it says on paper. They might even attack ESA. Say you listed a species in 1995 and the abundance has, at best, stabilized at what it was when listed. Might be able to argue that you really don't want to protect/recover so let "me" do my thing.

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#958787 - 06/12/16 11:38 AM Re: The end of Grays Harbor fisheries as we know them? [Re: Carcassman]
bob r Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 04/17/13
Posts: 289
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
I wonder that if we continue to over harvest our fish resources and otherwise muck up the habitat that proposals like this may succeed because "you're not using the river to produce fish"

Back in the late 70s WDF developed a plan for Puget Sound salmon that require at least one species pf salmon (Chinook, coho, chum) to be managed on a wild basis in order to ensure the ability to protect habitat. I would not be surprised if a smart business looked at how a watershed is actually managed versus what it says on paper. They might even attack ESA. Say you listed a species in 1995 and the abundance has, at best, stabilized at what it was when listed. Might be able to argue that you really don't want to protect/recover so let "me" do my thing.


You seem to have a vested interest in projects like this succeeding ( or at least play "devil's advocate"). I'm not quite sure that I get your point, is this a "wake-up call" to us that if the fisheries fail (which we may lose no matter what we as individuals do) we should expect dangerous, irresponsible shi* shoved down our throat? Just what is your point? That this is inevitable and we all should stick our heads in the sand and wait for the big bang? All this crap goes off-shore to make some dangerous, irresponsible pieces of crap rich? I don't think so, not over my (or LOTS of other folks )bodies. Bob R

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#958797 - 06/12/16 12:06 PM Re: The end of Grays Harbor fisheries as we know them? [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The point is that if we don't aggressively protect our natural resources there will be no reason to save them. We refuse to deal with human population. They gotta eat, they need water.

We have been very happy to see the rest of the world develop, to aspire for more goods that we produced. Then, they started building them cheaper and we loved that because we could spend less money to get the same item.

Look at what has happened to the natural resources (especially anadromous fish) in the Atlantic. And western Pacific. That is what is happening here because we all allow it to.

Ask yourself if you would be willing to live (anywhere) if the requirement that life there was locally (say 100 miles) sustainable. All the products used were produced in that 100 mile circle from water to food to fiber to energy. If the answer is "I don't want to live like that" then somebody else has to destroy their locality to support you.

I don't necessarily want to see this project happen but I do want there to be a better alternative that is possible and viable. Simply saying no is, at least to me, not enough.


Edited by Carcassman (06/12/16 12:09 PM)

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#958801 - 06/12/16 12:33 PM Re: The end of Grays Harbor fisheries as we know them? [Re: Carcassman]
slabhunter Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 01/17/04
Posts: 3742
Loc: Sheltona Beach
I see your point. But exporting coal and oil needs to end.

It is coming back to us as poison to us and our pets. Jimi Hendrix worded it like Castles made of sand crumble to the Sea eventually.
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When we are forgotten, we cease to exist .
Share your outdoor skills.

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#958810 - 06/12/16 01:51 PM Re: The end of Grays Harbor fisheries as we know them? [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Where will, in the short term, India and China get power? China has destroyed a magnificent river with a hydro dam.

A point made to me by a number of folks is that China holds a significant proportion of US debt. Do we want to piss them off?

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#958839 - 06/12/16 06:20 PM Re: The end of Grays Harbor fisheries as we know them? [Re: Carcassman]
Black Bart Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 319
Loc: Adna
So what happens if we just say Fuk you China and this debt you claim that the USA owes you. What the hell are you going to do?

We are bankrupt an can not pay our bills. Do you think China will invade the mainland USA ?
_________________________
Just lettin' it roll, lettin' the high times carry the low
Love livin' my life, easy come easy go

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#958841 - 06/12/16 08:05 PM Re: The end of Grays Harbor fisheries as we know them? [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Just who would loan the US money if we welched on a debt? No need to invade, just take all the money away.

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#958843 - 06/12/16 08:45 PM Re: The end of Grays Harbor fisheries as we know them? [Re: Carcassman]
Black Bart Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 319
Loc: Adna
Why the hell should we as a country worry about borrowing money.

Hell, let's just print more of our own worthless muny as we have been doing for years and get ready for WW III.
_________________________
Just lettin' it roll, lettin' the high times carry the low
Love livin' my life, easy come easy go

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#958877 - 06/13/16 10:16 AM Re: The end of Grays Harbor fisheries as we know them? [Re: Black Bart]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Black Bart
Why the hell should we as a country worry about borrowing money.

Hell, let's just print more of our own worthless muny as we have been doing for years and get ready for WW III.


Well, hyperinflation is one good reason. And since we are no longer on the gold standard the value of U.S. money is directly tied to confidence in our economy to include paying off our debts (or at least servicing its interest obligations).
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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