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#943132 - 11/12/15 09:35 PM HOW BIG? Gene determines age at return.
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12767
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#943141 - 11/12/15 11:27 PM Re: HOW BIG? Gene determines age at return. [Re: eyeFISH]
Denham Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 05/30/15
Posts: 120
Loc: Maple Valley
Wow very intrigued... Now who wants to bet we won't be seeing this discovery utilized in our hatcheries anytime soon

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#943143 - 11/13/15 06:48 AM Re: HOW BIG? Gene determines age at return. [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The fish has to survive being caught. If a Chinook has the genetics to mature at age-7, as they used to, what chance does it have to live that long in the face of all the marine fisheries?

We have known for decades that age at maturity had a strong genetic component. WDG tried to take advantage of this with Skamania Summers. They bred the bigger, older fish with each other and got significantly larger adults back. Just too few, due to the increased at-sea losses, to sustain the program.

If you want the largest fish to return you have to not kill them before they do. Which means you fish in the bays and rivers after they stopped most feeding.

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#943147 - 11/13/15 07:56 AM Re: HOW BIG? Gene determines age at return. [Re: Denham]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
Originally Posted By: Denham
Wow very intrigued... Now who wants to bet we won't be seeing this discovery utilized in our hatcheries anytime soon

I, for one, hope we never see this discovery utilized anywhere. Ma Nature doesn't make mistakes (at least not long-term ones). There's an important reason for the diversity of age classes. In fact, I think it's safe to say that if we tried to selectively breed hatchery salmon for size, we'd virtually wipe them all out in ocean fisheries before the first brood returned to any system to spawn.

To Carcassman's point, we have largely eliminated the upper end of the range by requiring a 7-year chinook to survive 5 to 6 years of commercial and sport fishing in order to return to its home river at its intended potential. Those are some long odds, and they do a lot to explain why you see fewer and fewer 50-pound specimens caught as time goes on.

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#943148 - 11/13/15 08:03 AM Re: HOW BIG? Gene determines age at return. [Re: eyeFISH]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
Size diversity aside, I think one of the best arguments for restricting commercial harvest to terminal areas is that all the fish in a terminal area are as large as they're going to get, and that's more dollars per fish. You'd think that would be an exciting prospect for the commercial market, but like Keta (a former trawler) explained to me in another thread yesterday, the status quo assures the commercial processors a maximum harvest level, and they're generally disinterested in setting any new precedents that might change that.

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#943149 - 11/13/15 08:15 AM Re: HOW BIG? Gene determines age at return. [Re: FleaFlickr02]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4411
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope

Been a while but if memory serves me the QIN did big fish to big fish with success. Now the down bit it was Steelhead and they do not suffer the same marine harvest as salmon do. I am not even certain if WDF&W's spawning protocols would even allow it be it salmon or Steelhead.
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Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#943162 - 11/13/15 11:49 AM Re: HOW BIG? Gene determines age at return. [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
It's Mother Nature that is trying to get the big old fish back. That is how the system was designed.

I also find it hard to understand why we chase a fish so we can catch it at a smaller size when it comes back to a predictable place at a larger size.

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#943165 - 11/13/15 12:10 PM Re: HOW BIG? Gene determines age at return. [Re: eyeFISH]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12767
Low holin' your "buddy" that's fishin' further upstream. Just another way to one-up the competition.

We've just taken it to the uber-extreme where the entire PNW is gettin' low holed in Alaska.

The funny thing is no one is intentionally doing anything inherently wrong or illegal.... only what's allowed by law.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#943177 - 11/13/15 01:35 PM Re: HOW BIG? Gene determines age at return. [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
And how many people from here go up to AK or BC to intercept those fish?

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#943213 - 11/13/15 08:05 PM Re: HOW BIG? Gene determines age at return. [Re: eyeFISH]
Isaac Offline
Parr

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 69
Loc: Seattle
Hatcheries need to raise big on big with some incorporation of a few wilds. It should be big on big for each year class and not just the largest fish. The genes for jacks and or 6 yr fish are in the 3 and 4yr fish even if they do not breed them. Raising salmon in this manner will allow for more natural selection as opposed to the way that things are done now which allows for much less natural selection. Yet they keep doing the same thing and wonder why the genes are diluted and the fish returns get worse and worse. It would be a simple way to improve the rings and would cost little to nothing to implement.

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#943219 - 11/13/15 10:22 PM Re: HOW BIG? Gene determines age at return. [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
If the hatcheries spawned big to big and got all the "grow big" genes in the salmon they would still only show up marginally in the return because the fishery would take them out. To gro big they not only need the genetics to live long but they have to be aggressive feeders. Which means aggressive biters which means dead fish in the boat.

You want big salmon? Stop killing them in the marine waters for the next 20 years.

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#943255 - 11/14/15 03:33 PM Re: HOW BIG? Gene determines age at return. [Re: eyeFISH]
Isaac Offline
Parr

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 69
Loc: Seattle
Getting big is not all about being agressive feeders. I can eat the same doughnuts and not get fat whereas somone else I know can eat the same doughnuts and gain 2 lbs and others only need to sniff the doughnuts and they gain 1lb. It has to do with good survival instincts and fitness overall primarily. That is what the hatcheries need to select for and there will be more overall which means more for those in the marine waters and more in the rivers. It is a win win that is being missed out on because of policy and red tape.

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#943264 - 11/14/15 06:33 PM Re: HOW BIG? Gene determines age at return. [Re: Carcassman]
OLD FB Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 09/05/14
Posts: 196
Loc: Stanwood WA
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
And how many people from here go up to AK or BC to intercept those fish?


As a matter of fact I do 2-3 trips a year (5-7 day trips) during the summer months as I find it cheaper than owning a boat, fuel, tabs, insurance etc. Takes me 5 hours to get to Westport and almost the same amount of time up to Ketchikan to POW, Juneau, Sitka or out to Pelican AK on the coast! Win/Win IMHO and such liberal limits too! I see the handwriting on the wall in this state... frown


Edited by OLD FB (11/14/15 10:04 PM)

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#943288 - 11/14/15 10:10 PM Re: HOW BIG? Gene determines age at return. [Re: eyeFISH]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12767
I once took a trip to Old Harbor (Kodiak). That fishery is targeting BIG kings bound for the Skeena as well as lots of others destined for streams in Cook Inlet, the Gulf of Alaska, BC and the Columbia. Lots of white jawed kings headed to other places than Alaska.

It was never intended as a meat run.... just a chance to catch and release a 60+ salt-caught chinook. I walked away with a single dinker king and an unlucky chum... but the bonus was the lodge fish cutter loaded me up with collars whacked off other clients kings.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#943347 - 11/15/15 05:33 PM Re: HOW BIG? Gene determines age at return. [Re: eyeFISH]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12767




_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

Top
#943348 - 11/15/15 06:00 PM Re: HOW BIG? Gene determines age at return. [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Kinda shows a pattern, doesn't it?

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#943376 - 11/16/15 08:32 AM Re: HOW BIG? Gene determines age at return. [Re: Carcassman]
TastySalmon Offline
Smolt

Registered: 04/16/14
Posts: 77
Loc: Lake Samish
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
Kinda shows a pattern, doesn't it?


Yes, the horrendous under-reporting of CWTs in the SEAK troll fishery. I am willing to bet that the majority of those tags were recovered in the drag fisheries.

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#943471 - 11/17/15 11:33 AM Re: HOW BIG? Gene determines age at return. [Re: eyeFISH]
softhackle Offline
Alevin

Registered: 02/14/14
Posts: 12
Loc: Washington
I understand that this thread has taken a little different direction from the initial intent, but going back to the article: it was researched in Norway and Finland. I am assuming that it refers directly to Salmo salar. Not directly to Oncorhynchus. I wouldn't at all be surprised if there was some gene specific to Pacific salmon and to Chinook in particular, but that is nowhere stated in the article. Apples to Apples?

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#943475 - 11/17/15 12:13 PM Re: HOW BIG? Gene determines age at return. [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
In most salmonids, size is determined by age at maturity. This is particularly true of the semelparous (spawn once). Over the century plus of hatchery operations this has been shown time and again. But, as many here have noted, if you put intensive fisheries on immature fish the likelihood of that fish reaching its genetic possible age are low.

This is also why triploids are popular in food production; all they do is grow. They don't develop gonads, which is a waste of energy for an organism that is supposed to only be eaten.

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#943476 - 11/17/15 12:14 PM Re: HOW BIG? Gene determines age at return. [Re: eyeFISH]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12767
Originally Posted By: softhackle
I understand that this thread has taken a little different direction from the initial intent, but going back to the article: it was researched in Norway and Finland. I am assuming that it refers directly to Salmo salar. Not directly to Oncorhynchus. I wouldn't at all be surprised if there was some gene specific to Pacific salmon and to Chinook in particular, but that is nowhere stated in the article. Apples to Apples?


The gene crosses species (as many others do). It's common for the same gene coding for the same protein to be universally found across the animal kingdom .

With all salmon sharing a common ancestor, I would have no problem accepting that the same genetic mechanism for determining size is shared in common.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#943592 - 11/18/15 02:24 PM Re: HOW BIG? Gene determines age at return. [Re: eyeFISH]
softhackle Offline
Alevin

Registered: 02/14/14
Posts: 12
Loc: Washington
You are probably correct in the assumption that the same gene encodes the protein which influences age at maturation and return between genera. I am just pointing out that it is an assumption being made that it is the same gene, albeit a likely assumption.

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#943617 - 11/18/15 11:08 PM Re: HOW BIG? Gene determines age at return. [Re: eyeFISH]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12767
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#943618 - 11/19/15 06:33 AM Re: HOW BIG? Gene determines age at return. [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
In 2015, or so, AK finds the Chinook getting smaller. Confirming what Bill Ricker published in the 1980s. Gave them 30 years to ignore the science. The initial discrediting of MSY was before that. And before that (late 60s, when I was in University) the problems of marine mixed stock fisheries for salmon were known.

And yet, all is more or less conveniently ignored to pursue business as usual.

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#943632 - 11/19/15 02:26 PM Re: HOW BIG? Gene determines age at return. [Re: Carcassman]
softhackle Offline
Alevin

Registered: 02/14/14
Posts: 12
Loc: Washington
This article states the reason for the decline of older/bigger fish is multivariate, such as sport fisherman targeting larger fish; but I can't help but think that by a large margin the main problem would have to be gillnets. Can there be any other large scale reason for the artificial selection of all these smaller fish?

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#943636 - 11/19/15 04:03 PM Re: HOW BIG? Gene determines age at return. [Re: eyeFISH]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
Wait, softhackle... you DON'T always catch trophy fish when you target them?

Yeah, I thought that was a bit of a stretch, too, but upon further consideration, I realized that sporties have definitely done at least a small share of the damage, particularly in Alaska, where a lot of tourists congregate en masse on rivers like the Kenai, which is famous for it's trophy kings. Of course, that is a terminal area, so at least the fish caught there are from the same stock, and it's not removing big fish from virtually every gene pool, like the mixed stock fisheries in the ocean do.

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#943638 - 11/19/15 04:58 PM Re: HOW BIG? Gene determines age at return. [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The gikknets have some little to do with it but it continues to be MARINE MIXED STOCK fisheries on immature fish that prevents fish fro getting older. The gallant, in the terminal area, is fishing on adults who have made the irreversible decision to spawn. If the fishery is size selective-and Ricker saw it working both ways-the survivors who spawn will be larger or smaller than the total return, pre-fishing, was.l

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#943641 - 11/19/15 05:53 PM Re: HOW BIG? Gene determines age at return. [Re: softhackle]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12767
Originally Posted By: softhackle
This article states the reason for the decline of older/bigger fish is multivariate, such as sport fisherman targeting larger fish; but I can't help but think that by a large margin the main problem would have to be gillnets. Can there be any other large scale reason for the artificial selection of all these smaller fish?
Multifactorial indeed. We are burning the critter's candle at both ends, with incessant assaults on every life stage of its natural history. The older/larger phenotype is simply made to endure those assaults for a longer period of time.

That's not to say the specific impact on adult spawners in the river isn't significant. On the contrary, large mesh gillnets have been definitively implicated in the demise of older/larger chinook in the Yukon River. They act like an in-river sieve, taking out all the large breeders ( esp large hens) and allowing only the smaller fish to wiggle thru.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#943658 - 11/20/15 05:20 AM Re: HOW BIG? Gene determines age at return. [Re: eyeFISH]
Lucky Louie Offline
Carcass

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 2286
Concerning the charts eyeFish supplied on page one showing the concentration of tags recovered, I found some interesting statistics.

Even though Alaska attributes to app. 95% of total salmon commercially caught from the western coastal states of the US in 2014, the significant number to me is that Washington State did out harvest Alaska State in Chinook by 800,000 lbs.

In 2013 WA out harvested AK by 2,300,000 lbs. of Chinook which those last two years shows an upswing over 2012 going to advantage AK by 200,000 lbs.

If we are not getting enough Chinook back for escapement in our state of Washington Rivers, we might need to look at our own back yard of Washington State and Federal commercial fisheries. Even though you will not hear a complaint from me if we would get all instead of only partial of our Chinook back unscathed after their journey north.

ESA listed salmon are being fished over from here, up and back but not enough Puget Sound Chinook Salmon to be caught in Puget Sound Rivers for the most part. Something wrong with that picture.

No wonder this State is missing out and in the dumper compared to ALL US coastal states in nonresident licenses and tourism dollars that goes together hand and hand.
_________________________
The world will not be destroyed by those that are evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything.- Albert Einstein

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