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#948686 - 01/25/16 01:32 PM Harbor seals and salmon impacts
bushbear Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 4709
Loc: Sequim
A very interesting article and short video clip on the impact of harbor seals in the Strait of Georgia. Expand it to the whole of the Salish Sea and then add in the potential impacts on rock fish, steelhead, and herring and other forage fishes, too. This is a problem that won't be easily solved.

http://www.vancouversun.com/technology/s...__lsa=4d4c-1b99


Seals blamed for drop in juvenile salmon stocks in Strait of Georgia: study

The marine mammal’s population has grown as salmons’ have declined

By Larry Pynn, Vancouver Sun January 24, 2016

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#948691 - 01/25/16 02:17 PM Re: Harbor seals and salmon impacts [Re: bushbear]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
I was surprised to learn seal poo from the area showed that salmon were only about 5% of a seal's diet. Would have figured it much higher than that. If a group of animals whose diet is comprised only 5% of salmon can actually account for 50% or more of juvenile salmon mortality in their range, it would seem to suggest there are a lot more seals than the ecosystem can feed.

It also stands to reason that the effect would be increased as you travel further south in the Sound, to where fish from the extreme South Sound hardly have a chance at making the ocean at all.

I'm never quick to blame predators for our mismanagement of the resource, but in this case, it does seem like a reduction in numbers is justifiable, if not necessary.

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#948693 - 01/25/16 02:33 PM Re: Harbor seals and salmon impacts [Re: bushbear]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
I certainly urge earliest peer review and publication so that our scientists and fish managers will no longer be able to ignore what has been and remains one of the 800 pound gorillas in the room!

During the 8 August 2015 Commission meeting a preliminary presentation was made of results of a study on Salish Sea (Puget Sound) salmon and steelhead smolt marine survival: http://wdfw.wa.gov/commission/meetings/2015/08/aug0715_06_presentation.pdf.

This study clearly correlated increases in harbor seal populations to decreases in smolt survival but also cautioned that correlation is not proof of a cause and effect relationship. Well, the B.C. study seems to clearly establish that a cause and effect relationship exists - at least in the study area (and reasonably in the rest of the Salish Sea).







Edited by Larry B (01/26/16 06:42 PM)
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#949201 - 01/29/16 07:18 AM Re: Harbor seals and salmon impacts [Re: bushbear]
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1382
Time to manage a major predator on a managed resource. Not to do so equals a zero sum game for all recovery efforts. I guess another way is stop all hatchery production and wait for nature to balance itself out, ie. starve them out!
_________________________
"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.” – Ferris Bueller.
Don't let the old man in!

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#949207 - 01/29/16 07:55 AM Re: Harbor seals and salmon impacts [Re: bushbear]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
The messed up thing is that salmon only represent 5% of their diet, so without the salmon to eat, they'd just be slightly slimmer. That they can count on salmon for only 5% of their diet and still have such a profound impact on salmon stocks paints the picture of just how far out of hand the situation is. It also makes me wonder what effects they are having on the species that make up the other 95%!

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#949211 - 01/29/16 08:19 AM Re: Harbor seals and salmon impacts [Re: bushbear]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
The cumulative impact of predators (cormorants, terns, seals, sea lions, river otters and (gasp) harbor porpoise) is the 800 pound gorilla managers seem reluctant to acknowledge. Why? Simple, because doing anything about them is so difficult politically.

ESA listed rockfish remain a significant factor in our fisheries (the 120 foot rule) and threat of further marine protected areas and/or rockfish protected areas yet it is known that predators consume rockfish to include juveniles in their near shore habitat. Just how many? Hard to tell but total seal food demand in Puget Sound is between 25 and 30 million pounds annually. Even 1% of that poundage would be 250-300 thousand pounds then try to figure out how many are ESA species. Even a WAG puts it way above the few individuals NOAA/NMFS allows as sport impact.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#949212 - 01/29/16 08:31 AM Re: Harbor seals and salmon impacts [Re: bushbear]
WDFW X 1 = 0 Offline
My Area code makes me cooler than you

Registered: 01/27/15
Posts: 4549
But they're soooo cute.

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#949215 - 01/29/16 09:16 AM Re: Harbor seals and salmon impacts [Re: bushbear]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7411
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
There is another aspect of the predation issue that is just as not-talked about. Te predators have to eat those fish. They can't go to Total Paycheck and buy a farmed fish. Or tofu. While the overall impact or predation needs to be understood there is only one predator that can survive just fine without the fish. And he won't share.

To me, you begin with a vision of what the whole system looks like, what is present, and in what abundances. A PUBLIC discussion of how many whales, seals, dolphins, and whatever else. Build the pyramid and figure what to do then.

Don't push (society) for the MMPA and ESA without understanding the end result of implementation including land-use, fishing down the food chain, and the myriad of other impacts.

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#949223 - 01/29/16 10:20 AM Re: Harbor seals and salmon impacts [Re: bushbear]
Paul Smenis Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 08/02/12
Posts: 1052
Loc: In a drift boat...
If there was the appropriate amount of forage fish for these "predators" to feed on this wouldn't be a topic of discussion.

Fix the real problems and you'll get real results.
_________________________
YOUR MOTHER IS A TULE!


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#949226 - 01/29/16 10:43 AM Re: Harbor seals and salmon impacts [Re: bushbear]
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1075
Loc: Graham, WA
Let them prosper and multiply. After all the fish are gone, I'm counting on them as a good food source when the zombie apocalypse hits. Be nice if they were good and fat!
_________________________
"Forgiveness is between them and God. My job is to arrange the meeting."

1Sgt U.S. Army (Ret)

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#949235 - 01/29/16 11:34 AM Re: Harbor seals and salmon impacts [Re: bushbear]
Bobberdoggin Offline
Fry

Registered: 09/19/13
Posts: 25
That would be awesome if they opened a season for harbor seals. I would have a harpoon turret mounted on the front of my jet boat that same day!

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#949240 - 01/29/16 11:50 AM Re: Harbor seals and salmon impacts [Re: WDFW X 1 = 0]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Originally Posted By: WDFW X 1 = 0
But they're soooo cute.


This.

My fear is that we are so awesome at ecosystem management that we could kill every seal, sea lion, porpoise, cormorant, merganser, and kingfisher in the entire Puget Sound Region, there would be an immediate measureable increase in salmon populations, which we would then immediately as feasible harvest right down to where we are now.

Why? That's the pattern that man has shown it is best at, all over the world in every culture.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#949315 - 01/29/16 05:18 PM Re: Harbor seals and salmon impacts [Re: Paul Smenis]
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1382
Originally Posted By: War-Paint
If there was the appropriate amount of forage fish for these "predators" to feed on this wouldn't be a topic of discussion.

Fix the real problems and you'll get real results.


Good point. An example of that is the Columbia smelt runs the last two years. For my boat, the good smelt returns equaled less attacked hooked Springers. Whitnessed groups of the seals floating by relaxing. I was told so full of smelt they didn't even want to swim.
_________________________
"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.” – Ferris Bueller.
Don't let the old man in!

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#949337 - 01/29/16 07:58 PM Re: Harbor seals and salmon impacts [Re: bushbear]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Lots of forage fish out there! Those increased populations of seals, sea lions, mergansers, cormorants, harbor porpoise, and river otters simply cannot exist primarily on salmon/steelhead smolt or rockfish. But when there is a rush of food such as outbound smolts or the other swing of the food availability pendulum pushes predators onto rockfish as a food source they have an immense adverse impact and particularly on those ESA listed species we are trying to recover.

Example: Remember the mackerel invasion of the PNW some years ago? The Canadians released Barkley Sound smolts directly into that curtain of death and they were decimated. South Sound releases face different predators but the smolt loss is huge.

My belief is that the aggregate impact of predators is a significant limiting factor in recovery of many of our ESA listed species.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#949376 - 01/30/16 10:26 AM Re: Harbor seals and salmon impacts [Re: bushbear]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
"My belief is that the aggregate impact of predators is a significant limiting factor in recovery of many of our ESA listed species."

Yep.

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#949539 - 01/31/16 08:34 PM Re: Harbor seals and salmon impacts [Re: bushbear]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7411
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Just remember that man is one of those predators, too. Why is "our" predation sacred and untouchable while the animals that have to eat wild fish can be culled?

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#949542 - 01/31/16 08:58 PM Re: Harbor seals and salmon impacts [Re: bushbear]
Dan S. Offline
It all boils down to this - I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone who disputes this is clearly a dumbfuck.

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 17149
Loc: SE Olympia, WA
Because we have opposable thumbs?
_________________________
She was standin' alone over by the juke box, like she'd something to sell.
I said "baby, what's the goin' price?" She told me to go to hell.

Bon Scott - Shot Down in Flames

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#949545 - 01/31/16 09:42 PM Re: Harbor seals and salmon impacts [Re: bushbear]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7411
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Good a reason as any

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#949546 - 01/31/16 09:45 PM Re: Harbor seals and salmon impacts [Re: bushbear]
Dan S. Offline
It all boils down to this - I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone who disputes this is clearly a dumbfuck.

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 17149
Loc: SE Olympia, WA
Let them try to hold a beer. smile
_________________________
She was standin' alone over by the juke box, like she'd something to sell.
I said "baby, what's the goin' price?" She told me to go to hell.

Bon Scott - Shot Down in Flames

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#949563 - 02/01/16 08:21 AM Re: Harbor seals and salmon impacts [Re: Carcassman]
blackmouth Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/05/04
Posts: 2713
Loc: right place/wrong time
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
Just remember that man is one of those predators, too. Why is "our" predation sacred and untouchable while the animals that have to eat wild fish can be culled?


Where do you get that crap? Are the pinnipeds going to be at NOF? Do they buy fishing licenses? Just where are their hatcheries?
_________________________
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."
Winston Churchill

"So it goes." Kurt Vonnegut jr.

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