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#955755 - 04/14/16 10:13 PM Re: North of Falcon/PMFC update [Re: Sky-Guy]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12333
Catch and impact is NOT necessarily the same.

When you fish NON selective, they ARE the same. You catch it, you harvest it, it's a 100% impact.
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"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


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Long Live the Kings!

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#955760 - 04/15/16 05:23 AM Re: North of Falcon/PMFC update [Re: Sky-Guy]
Jerry Garcia Offline



Registered: 10/13/00
Posts: 9159
Loc: everett
These fisheries closures are the direct consequence of the state of Washington allowing the destruction of salmon habitat for decades,” Loomis said. “Dips in ocean survival will happen every so often, but we wouldn’t have to drastically cut back our fisheries if a better job was done protecting the habitat.”


Just cracks me up that the tribes have no ownership in their own impacts.
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Growing old ain't for wimps
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#955762 - 04/15/16 07:10 AM Re: North of Falcon/PMFC update [Re: eyeFISH]
JustBecause Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 07/18/08
Posts: 192
Okay, got it.

So if a selective fishery is designed to use an amount of "impacts" in the form of released fish, does that mean more released fish will survive the fishery (to spawn), or do the same amount of non-target (wild) fish die a in a non-selective fishery? If the same, then how is one technique better than the other, for the fish?

Also, how does the expanded catch, from the selective fishery, affect the total catch for the 50:50 split? In other words, how is it possible to split the harvestable fish and impacts, equally, when the parties fish differently, selective vs non-selective?

Thanks for entertaining my questions.

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#955763 - 04/15/16 08:15 AM Re: North of Falcon/PMFC update [Re: Sky-Guy]
Local Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 12/29/99
Posts: 436
What will be the regs for Johns River, Willapa Bay and the Chehalis river ?
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#955764 - 04/15/16 08:38 AM Re: North of Falcon/PMFC update [Re: Sky-Guy]
fishbadger Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 03/06/01
Posts: 1073
Loc: Gig Harbor, WA
NOAA's letter suggested no Section 7 route for rec's and NT's, but the tribes had a faster (albeit not guaranteed) route. Is that set in stone, or was it "guidelines"?

Very interested to hear of the progress over the next couple weeks Sky Guy, and thank your for your time and effort in advocacy.

Let us know when and how to help. There are resources available.

fb
_________________________
"Laugh if you want to, it really is kinda funny, cuz the world is a car and you're the crash test dummy"
All Hail, The Devil Makes Three

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#955768 - 04/15/16 09:24 AM Re: North of Falcon/PMFC update [Re: Walt_K]
Chasin' Baitman Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 08/15/12
Posts: 252
Originally Posted By: Walt_K
No deal. About damn time. I sent a note to Director Unsworth thanking him for his stance. Let him know you have his back.


Done. And thanks to Sky-Guy for the updates and urging WDFW to stand up to the tribes.

Reading the NW Treaty Tribes press release is both entertaining and disturbing. The very first paragraph ends with "except in a few terminal areas where there are identified harvestable hatchery fish."

Sure sounds like a euphemism for "basically business as usual"

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#955769 - 04/15/16 09:32 AM Re: North of Falcon/PMFC update [Re: Chasin' Baitman]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 3105
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope

Quote:
What will be the regs for Johns River, Willapa Bay and the Chehalis river ?



This is not even preliminary but off the last model run for GH and numbers did not make sense at all. It does give you and idea though. This at a 5% NOR impact on Coho as in a conference call WDF&W said they were moving toward the QIN preseason forecast of around 32K and not WDFW 40k.


Dates Bag Limit
Area 2D only Oct 1-Nov 30 1 Adult bag: release wild Chinook
Area 2C only Aug 1 - Sept 16 2 adults, release wild coho.

April 16 - June 30 1 Adult bag:
Chehalis River Mouth to Porter Sept 16-Sept 30 1 Adult bag: Release wild Chinook
Oct 1-Jan 31 1 Adult bag: Release wild Chinook and wild Coho

Chehalis River Porter up to High Bridge Sept 16-Sept 30 1 Adult bag: Release wild Chinook
Oct 1-Jan 31 1 Adult bag: Release wild Chinook and wild Coho
Hwy 6 to high bridge

Hoquiam Closed 0

Wishkah Oct 1-Dec 31 1 Adult bag: release Chinook and wild Coho


Wynoochee Oct 1-Nov 30 1 Adult bag: Release Chinook and wild Coho

Satsop Oct 1-Dec 31 1 Adult bag: Release wild Chinook and wild Coho
0 0

Black River Closed 0

Skookumchuck Oct. 1-Dec 31 1 Adult bag: release Chinook and wild Coho


Newaukum Oct. 1-Dec 31 1 Adult bag: release Chinook and wild Coho

Elk and Johns Closed 0

Humptulips River FW Sept. 1-Sept 30 2 Adult bag: 1 may be a wild Chinook, release wild Coho
Oct 1-Nov 15 2 Adult bag: 1 may be a Chinook, release wild Coho
Nov 16-Jan 31 1 Adult bag: release Chinook and wild Coho
Commercial Dates # days Details
Area 2A/2D 43 Oct 16, 2016 0 12 hr days, live boxes, short soak, release wild Chinook
44 Oct 23, 2016 3 12 hr days, live boxes, short soak, release wild Chinook

Area 2C 43 Oct 16, 2016 2 24 hr days, live boxes, short soak, release wild Coho
44 Oct 23, 2016 2 12 hr days, live boxes, short soak, release wild Coho


Edited by Rivrguy (04/15/16 09:35 AM)
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Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#955770 - 04/15/16 09:38 AM Re: North of Falcon/PMFC update [Re: Sky-Guy]
Sky-Guy Offline
The Tide is Changing

Registered: 08/31/00
Posts: 7106
Loc: Woodinmilf
Ive been really busy with work so I am just going to post up some of the Advisor's sound bites about 2016 NOF for your consumption:


In the aggregate roughly 2/3 of the impacts fall on the tribal side of the ledger.


We agree that there is a conservation issue with our coho and with previous co-manager agreed management guidelines (comp coho) potential fisheries need to be managed to minimize impacts on coho.



The tribal managers seemed to focus on how the non-tribal fishers fished rather than on what the impacts were. In effect attempt to dictate when, where and how non-treaty fisheries occur.



The majority of the conservation burden has been placed on the non-treaty fishers.



The tribal managers position was that only coho impacts could occur in fisheries targeting other species; for example Chinook. Yet for fisheries target game fish in freshwater the tribal position was that those fisheries had to be closed.



The tribal desires on the Skagit that there be a rough balancing of sharing of treaty and non-treaty impacts but were unwilling to adopt the same sharing criteria for those basins where there were significant imbalance on the tribal side.


"Goals of recreational angling leaders have focused on:
* Conservation and escapement of spawning fish first
* Responsible "selective fisheries" designed to select harvestable hatchery fish and release wild fish.
* Meaningful and equitable fisheries across geographical areas and types of fisheries including catch & release fishing, marine and river fisheries.
* Our intent has always been to negotiate fisheries in good faith, respecting co-managers needs and traditions. We don't dictate how tribes conduct their fisheries and don't believe that tribes should dictate how we conduct ours.
* 2016 fisheries discussions broke down because tribes oppose how we conduct fisheries like "marked selective fishing" (in which hatchery fish are kept and wild fish are released) and catch & release fishing which has been a valuable tool for fish recovery in recreation fishing in countless global real world applications, even though the non-tribal fisheries impacted comprehensive wild Coho escapement at a lower rate than proposed tribal fisheries. Our fisheries were rejected by tribal representatives based their own values and not science or conservation, giving explanations like "we don't like the ocular effect" and "we don't like you playing with our food".



Right now, each and every Sportfisherman and woman is Washington state needs to back the department 100%, in support of negotiations of fair and equitable fisheries. We cannot and will not accept anything less.
Email the director, email the commissioners, email the Governor in support of continued negotiations with equitable impacts only, nd if not demand we file for our own permits through NOAA.

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You know something bad is going to happen when you hear..."Hey, hold my beer and watch this"

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#955777 - 04/15/16 11:31 AM Re: North of Falcon/PMFC update [Re: Sky-Guy]
Soft bite Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 11/11/08
Posts: 133
Loc: Central Park
An impact is a dead fish. Catch is a dead fish in your boat. If you release a fish there is an impact (mortality) of 10-14% depending on location. In addition there is an impact assigned for fish that engage your gear but escape. Nets are also assigned a release mortality of 14-56% depending on net type and location. They also have an assigned net drop out mortality.

What is missing is the impact of seals and sea lions. At times they harvest as much from nets as the fishermen without an assigned impact.

Sorry this is off the thread topic but there was some miss understanding of what an impact is.

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#955780 - 04/15/16 11:47 AM Re: North of Falcon/PMFC update [Re: Sky-Guy]
JustBecause Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 07/18/08
Posts: 192
Thanks SB,

So between your explanation and what the Doc said earlier, I gather that the tribes only impacts (dead fish) are related to estimated net dropout? Other than that, no impacts, just catch (dead fish in the boat)?

Or, I suppose a by catch species?


Thanks,


Edited by JustBecause (04/15/16 11:52 AM)

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#955784 - 04/15/16 12:17 PM Re: North of Falcon/PMFC update [Re: Soft bite]
Myassisdragon Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 07/07/14
Posts: 1052
Loc: The Wet Side
" What is missing is the impact of seals and sea lions. At times they harvest as much from nets as the fishermen without an assigned impact. "

+1
_________________________
Hmmm

- "Wild steelhead were more numerous this year than they were in the 1970s" ( ITYOOL - 2015 )

- "It's past the time to "play nice", after all, they are pooching us royally."

D'uh!

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#955786 - 04/15/16 12:21 PM Re: North of Falcon/PMFC update [Re: JustBecause]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 3105
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope

Some of us will document the Sea Lions this year JC but it ran about 20% last year.

Dead fish is a dead fish. QIN count fish sold plus 4% drop out and they disagree with the 4% thing. The fishers take some home and ect but not much back door sales anymore as the QIN will pull their permit.

Directed or targeted is correct as the non target spices is incidental. They are counted also just separate.
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Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#955787 - 04/15/16 12:47 PM Re: North of Falcon/PMFC update [Re: Sky-Guy]
Dogfish Offline
Poodle Smolt

Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 10975
Loc: McCleary, WA
Does anybody have numbers for the commercial catch by area? These will be the numbers that the commercial trollers will be allowed to catch.
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"Give me the anger, fish! Give me the anger!"

They call me POODLE SMOLT!

The Discover Pass is brought to you by your friends at the CCA.

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#955792 - 04/15/16 04:42 PM Re: North of Falcon/PMFC update [Re: fishbadger]
rojoband Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 05/31/08
Posts: 250
Originally Posted By: fishbadger
NOAA's letter suggested no Section 7 route for rec's and NT's, but the tribes had a faster (albeit not guaranteed) route. Is that set in stone, or was it "guidelines"?

Very interested to hear of the progress over the next couple weeks Sky Guy, and thank your for your time and effort in advocacy.

Let us know when and how to help. There are resources available.

fb


Just in from the Seattle Times: http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news...ound-fisheries/

"The tribal fishing plan has been submitted to NOAA Fisheries, according to a commission statement. And it could be approved without the months of delays that a separate state plan would face, said Bob Turner, a NOAA Fisheries assistant administrator who outlined the approval processes in a Jan. 19 letter to state and tribal officials. But on Friday, a commission staffer said the tribes did meet again with state officials to discuss a joint management plan."

Looks like the tribe's route for approval is moving forward, and NOAA is saying non-tribal is going to have to sit on the bank.

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#955795 - 04/15/16 06:10 PM Re: North of Falcon/PMFC update [Re: Sky-Guy]
GodLovesUgly Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 04/20/09
Posts: 1158
Loc: WaRshington
I'm sorry but I'm just having a bit of a problem here..


So THE STATE OF WASHINGTON can't fish in its own waters, but sovereign entities can?


Am I missing something?
_________________________
When I grow up I want to be,
One of the harvesters of the sea.
I think before my days are done,
I want to be a fisherman.

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#955817 - 04/16/16 11:24 AM Re: North of Falcon/PMFC update [Re: Sky-Guy]
fishbadger Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 03/06/01
Posts: 1073
Loc: Gig Harbor, WA
While I really do want to fish over this upcoming run of clipped kings, I am willing to sit it out if the end result is a revised negotiation process for the future, where we don't get held hostage by negotiators in bad faith. I can get behind the state on this one, but we need to make it count (and not for just this season).

fb
_________________________
"Laugh if you want to, it really is kinda funny, cuz the world is a car and you're the crash test dummy"
All Hail, The Devil Makes Three

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#955818 - 04/16/16 11:46 AM Re: North of Falcon/PMFC update [Re: fishbadger]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 3105
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
WDFW NEWS RELEASE
Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife
600 Capitol Way North, Olympia, WA 98501-1091
http://wdfw.wa.gov/
April 15, 2016
Contact: Ron Warren, (360) 902-2799
Salmon seasons set for ocean, CR;
tate, tribes unable to reach agreement on Puget Sound
OLYMPIA – Anglers will have opportunities to fish for salmon in the ocean and Columbia River this year, although recreational and non-tribal commercial salmon fisheries in Puget Sound may be closed through much of the season.
After lengthy negotiations, state and tribal fishery managers could not reach an agreement on salmon-fishing seasons in Puget Sound. An agreement must be reached in the next few weeks or the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (WDFW) and treaty tribes in western Washington will each need to secure separate federal permits required to hold fisheries in Puget Sound waters where there are protected fish stocks.
That decision was made yesterday at the Pacific Fishery Management Council’s meeting in Vancouver, Wash. Salmon fishing seasons for Washington’s ocean waters and the Columbia River were adopted during the federal panel’s meeting. A summary of those fisheries is available on WDFW’s website at http://wdfw.wa.gov/news/attach/apr1516a.pdf
Jim Unsworth, WDFW director, said potentially forgoing salmon seasons in Puget Sound isn’t a decision the department took lightly.
“We realize that closing salmon fishing in Puget Sound for the foreseeable future is not only disappointing but is detrimental to many communities across the region,” he said. “As we work to secure the necessary federal permit, we hope to continue discussions with the tribes. I believe co-management can work, and we will do our part to improve the process of setting salmon seasons in Washington.”
This is the first time the state and tribes have not reached an agreement on salmon fishing seasons while working as co-managers, which began about 30 years ago. In previous years, the co-managers have been authorized to fish for salmon under a joint federal permit.
Ron Warren, head of WDFW’s Fish Program, said the department will begin working with NOAA Fisheries to secure a federal permit for salmon fisheries in Puget Sound. However, it is uncertain the department will receive federal authorization in time to hold salmon fisheries this summer, he said.
“We knew setting salmon-fishing seasons would be challenging this year due to the poor forecast for coho,” Warren said. “Our staff worked really hard to put forward a set of proposed fisheries that met agreed-to conservation goals. Unfortunately, we were not able to reach an agreement.”
About 256,000 coho are expected to return to Puget Sound in 2016. That’s about one-third the size of run predicted in 2015.
During the salmon season-setting process, state fishery managers consulted with numerous members of the department’s Puget Sound sportfishing advisory groups, who supported the department’s decision.
Puget Sound marine and fresh water areas that currently are open to salmon fishing – including marine areas 5, 11, 12 and 13 – will close to fishing May 1, if not scheduled to close earlier in the 2015-2016 Washington Sport Fishing Rules pamphlet.
Persons with disabilities who need to receive this information in an alternative format or who need reasonable accommodations to participate in WDFW-sponsored public meetings or other activities may contact Dolores Noyes by phone (360-902-2349), TTY (360-902-2207), or email (dolores.noyes@dfw.wa.gov). For more information, see http://wdfw.wa.gov/accessibility/reasonable_request.html.
________________________________________
This message has been sent to the WDFW Regulatory Information mailing list.
Visit the WDFW News Release Archive at: http://wdfw.wa.gov/news/
To UNSUBSCRIBE from this mailing list: http://wdfw.wa.gov/lists/unsubscribe.html
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Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#955821 - 04/16/16 01:36 PM Re: North of Falcon/PMFC update [Re: Sky-Guy]
Krijack Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 1054
Loc: Tacoma
I have been thinking about the tribes argument for increased impacts based of tradition fishing methods. Do they really want to argue that they will not switch to lower impact methods based off of tradition? While gill netting may be traditional, the current methods, such as drift netting, using jet sleds, nylon nets, and such show they are perfectly happy to adjust to their advantage.

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#955827 - 04/16/16 05:17 PM Re: North of Falcon/PMFC update [Re: Sky-Guy]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 12321
The treaty tribes' fishing business model (one fisherman, one skiff, one outboard motor, one gillnet) is the most cost effective. Selective fishing methods require a significantly larger capital investment for seines or other selective gear. And alternative gear and methods involve group or communal fishing, which complicates the serious issue of "who gets the money?"

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#955830 - 04/16/16 08:00 PM Re: North of Falcon/PMFC update [Re: Sky-Guy]
Keta Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 03/05/00
Posts: 1082
"About 256,000 coho are expected to return to Puget Sound in 2016. That’s about one-third the size of run predicted in 2015."

How many coho actually returned in 2015? I know it wasn't anywhere near what was predicted. Why should we think this prediction has any basis in reality?

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