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#956095 - 04/22/16 07:58 AM Why do we have to SEND in CRCs?
Sal Fario Offline
Fry

Registered: 10/22/13
Posts: 38
#begin rant
Every time I pull out my CRC, I have to laugh. The current process is soooo bad.

Maybe improvements are in the works, and this has been posted on elsewhere, but I'll still rant - I will not be denied!

The WDFW relying on a group of people to send in CRCs is fraught with pitfalls and perils - a real statistician wouldn't do this. The statistics may be used to set seasons, limits, etc., but how reliable are they really?

Consider this: if everyone sent in a CRC, it's basically a $.50 increased license fee (yes, the price of a stamp recently went down - we won't be getting a rebate on those forever stamps we have). What would happen if the license fee was increased $.50, and the $ collected over several years went to improve the end user experience at the retailer? Specifically, when you get a new license, have a reader that can read the barcode at the top of your CRC - and automatically deduct the extra $ for not sending one in. In the future, as the CRC is improved, the reader can gather statistics (no, steelhead weren't fished for, yes, salmon were). Then the retiler can send in the cards en masse. Or we can go down the online route. Yes, there are issues with CRCs for different species and different dates, but nothing that can't be overcome. No, we don't want to just punch perforated circles out (hanging chad issue).

As a side note, I don't mind the extra $ collected if the CRC is not sent in. If it amounts to $100, I don't care what happens to it. If it is $100,000, does it go directly to improving the statistics collection process?

As anoter side note - why are the boxes on the CRC so small? If you're in an open skiff, and it's pouring down rain, the only dry place is where you are sitting. So you try that and your pen doesn't write with hard aluminum behind it, so you try to write on your thigh, and you get something down, but it may not be readable. And why is the list of area/zone codes not printed on the back of the CRC? There's a state seal there now - that's just wasted white space. So you fish several rivers and the have to look up a list of codes in the regs (which then get wet), if you remembered to bring them. And a CRC is in a wallet and sat on for 365 days. And maybe it goes through the wash. Then you try to peel it apart and the ink (needs improving) comes off and is now on the wrong side, and your entries are basically unreadable.

Maybe it's time for a citizens commission on JUST the CRC process. I'm sure the people who get the CRCs and have to enter the statistics have some ideas about improvement.

The state either needs to eliminate this requirement or improve the process. The current situation is unacceptable.
#end rant

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#956097 - 04/22/16 08:35 AM Re: Why do we have to SEND in CRCs? [Re: Sal Fario]
Doug Kelly Offline
Spawner

Registered: 02/22/00
Posts: 752
Loc: Bothell WA
Not to high jack this topic but on the lines of licensing, Why when you go to get your license it is such a hassle, Need your ID (OK) did you get one last year(YES) can't find you in the system, you take my SS #, why is it so hard, Yet I go to Oregon they ask for SS# & ID what do you want, Click, click click, Thank You, Our WDFW better get it together while they still can, or maybe its to late, they can't seem to get anything else right,

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#956098 - 04/22/16 08:59 AM Re: Why do we have to SEND in CRCs? [Re: Doug Kelly]
Sal Fario Offline
Fry

Registered: 10/22/13
Posts: 38
I guess I have it good. I just give them my old WA license and they issue a new one. No ID, SSN, nothing. I could be someone else for all they know. I'm sure the reailer will change their policy at some point in the future.

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#956106 - 04/22/16 01:06 PM Re: Why do we have to SEND in CRCs? [Re: Sal Fario]
Eric Kraig Offline
Fry

Registered: 09/29/09
Posts: 34
Hi Sal,

I'm the CRC manager for WDFW, so I guess your rant is directed at me. I'll take a shot at answering your questions.

We get enough cards back to produce reasonably good estimates. We've been doing this long enough now (fifty years!) that we have a pretty good handle on the the non-response bias, and we spend a lot of time checking and reviewing the returns. We have had statisticians (real ones, I'm pretty sure) compare the estimates to those derived from more costly means, like creel and effort surveys, and found no significant difference. If you want more info on the whole estimation process, let me know - I can send you a description.

We actively discourage people from turning in their cards at the dealers. That just inserts another middleman, one who does not necessarily have any incentive to get the cards back to us in a timely fashion. So mail is the preferred method, until we can get online reporting up for fish, which hopefully won't take too much longer. From our experience with crab reporting, I think we will get about 80% of our reports in online.

There is no penalty for failure to return fish cards. So the money collected there is $0.

The cards are already pretty long. If we make the boxes bigger, either the card gets longer or we have fewer boxes. It's a compromise. The thermal paper that we use has gotten better over the years but it is still not perfect by a long shot. The vendors are the ones who demanded that all the licenses be printable on the same paper stock - that is why we have the grocery receipt-like licenses instead of the old pre-printed cards. The old cards were easier to write on, but the vendors really didn't like having to keep inventory of multiple documents.

So for now, keep on mailing in those cards. Things will get better when we have 1) online reporting and 2) an optional app to use in place of the physical card. Both of those are on the wish list, but sometimes the wheels turn slower than we all would like.

Thanks for your patience, and I hope you fill all the little boxes on your card this year.

- Eric

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#956109 - 04/22/16 02:25 PM Re: Why do we have to SEND in CRCs? [Re: Eric Kraig]
fp Offline
Old Duffer

Registered: 03/15/99
Posts: 2967
Loc: Hoquiam,WA.USA
So if we DO NOT turn in our CRC cards we WILL NOT get nailed the following year for not doing so?

Somehow I thought it was a $10.00 ish penalty.

Was going to mail ours today but will wait for reply.

Thanks for updating,

fp

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#956110 - 04/22/16 02:28 PM Re: Why do we have to SEND in CRCs? [Re: Sal Fario]
OncyT Offline
Spawner

Registered: 02/06/08
Posts: 506
fp, no penalty for fish cards. Crab cards = $10 penalty. I assume Eric will confirm that.

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#956111 - 04/22/16 03:11 PM Re: Why do we have to SEND in CRCs? [Re: Sal Fario]
RowVsWade Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 3405
Loc: Island Time
They should treat turning in CRC's like big game reports and if you turn it in on time you'll get entered into a chance to win a salmon tag. That would entitle the winner to catch and release (of course) 1 Pugets Sound salmon.
_________________________
"...the pool hall I loved as a kid is now a 7-11..."

If you don't like our prices bring your wife down and we'll dicker.

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#956113 - 04/22/16 03:27 PM Re: Why do we have to SEND in CRCs? [Re: Eric Kraig]
MPM Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/09/08
Posts: 766
Loc: Seattle, WA
Originally Posted By: Eric Kraig
Hi Sal,

Things will get better when we have 1) online reporting and 2) an optional app to use in place of the physical card.



YES PLEASE!

I am very happy to hear that this is at least on the table/in the works.

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#956114 - 04/22/16 03:28 PM Re: Why do we have to SEND in CRCs? [Re: Eric Kraig]
Sal Fario Offline
Fry

Registered: 10/22/13
Posts: 38
Good to know this process is changing albeit slowly.

Will we someday only have to record data in case we are checked, or do you see it as "record data and send it in?"

The retailer may be a middleman, but think about the user experience of the end license holder. Fishing, jockeying around boats, crowded waters - we have to deal with all these and more. The easier it is for us, the better the stats will be. Maybe the retailers need to be incented...

For the online reporting, are you aiming to make it real time, or annually?

Not directed at you - just something I needed to get off my chest.

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#956116 - 04/22/16 04:18 PM Re: Why do we have to SEND in CRCs? [Re: Sal Fario]
Swifty27 Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 08/21/13
Posts: 389
Loc: Tri-Cities, WA
Great to see some of the things in the works. I miss the old CRC summary reports wdfw used to publish.

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#956133 - 04/23/16 08:33 AM Re: Why do we have to SEND in CRCs? [Re: Sal Fario]
DrifterWA Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 04/25/00
Posts: 5074
Loc: East of Aberdeen, West of Mont...
If you live close to a WDFW office the punch cards can be turned in there. Just happens I drive right past the Region 6 office, so makes it easy for me.

I also look for a change, smart phones could make the process so easy, with the correct software.
_________________________
"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"

"I thought growing older, would take longer"

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#956203 - 04/25/16 06:13 AM Re: Why do we have to SEND in CRCs? [Re: DrifterWA]
Eric Kraig Offline
Fry

Registered: 09/29/09
Posts: 34
Hi all,

Eventually we'll have the option of recording catch on paper or on an app. One possibly tricky issue there: Access to the app by Enforcement in the field. Hopefully that will get worked out...

The catch reports generated in part from CRC returns are on the web at http://wdfw.wa.gov/fishing/harvest/

The $10 fines were put in for crab in order to get sufficient reports back within a fairly short period of time. So far, that hasn't been needed for fish. I'd rather be inconsistent and NOT charge fines if they aren't needed. But to each his own, I suppose.

I like the idea of raffling off a ticket to keep one Puget Sound salmon. I wouldn't mind one of those myself. smirk

- Eric

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#956206 - 04/25/16 06:50 AM Re: Why do we have to SEND in CRCs? [Re: Sal Fario]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7412
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Just a question on specific fisheries and the relationship between CRC and creel check.

Lake WA sockeye, at least in the 80s, were managed based on an intensive creel check. Daily flights, angler checks all day, and so on. Came up with the number used to manage. As I recall, in one year, the CRC said something like 40K (the share) and the CRC said something like 60K. Has this specific fishery been looked at?

As I recall, the estimate was based on anglers who launched at the various ramps but there was no way to census lakeside landowners who had their own docks.

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#956207 - 04/25/16 07:20 AM Re: Why do we have to SEND in CRCs? [Re: Eric Kraig]
_WW_ Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/30/13
Posts: 233
Loc: Skagit
Originally Posted By: Eric Kraig
Hi all,

Eventually we'll have the option of recording catch on paper or on an app. One possibly tricky issue there: Access to the app by Enforcement in the field. Hopefully that will get worked out...


Very simple. Officer enters your Wild ID# and looks to see if any catch has been attributed to your number. Probably the simplest part of the whole operation!
_________________________
Catch & Release Is Not A Crime

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#956209 - 04/25/16 08:10 AM Re: Why do we have to SEND in CRCs? [Re: _WW_]
Eric Kraig Offline
Fry

Registered: 09/29/09
Posts: 34
Carcassman,

In 2006, the last time we had a Lake WA sockeye fishery, the numbers were pretty close - 54K for the CRC vs. 58K for the creel. Inability to check catch at private sites does create the possibility for some bias - we see that in the PS creel checks as well.

_WW_ - easy to check the reports on the database if there is service at the site in question, which might not always be the case. The app will have to store the data and upload when service is available, which is fine for reporting but not so much for Enforcement.

- Eric

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#956210 - 04/25/16 09:29 AM Re: Why do we have to SEND in CRCs? [Re: Sal Fario]
_WW_ Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/30/13
Posts: 233
Loc: Skagit
...and the angler opens his app and shows enforcement his most recent entry!
_________________________
Catch & Release Is Not A Crime

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#956211 - 04/25/16 09:40 AM Re: Why do we have to SEND in CRCs? [Re: _WW_]
Eric Kraig Offline
Fry

Registered: 09/29/09
Posts: 34
And if he doesn't want to? Little privacy issue there...

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#956214 - 04/25/16 10:24 AM Re: Why do we have to SEND in CRCs? [Re: Sal Fario]
OncyT Offline
Spawner

Registered: 02/06/08
Posts: 506
Just like any other app you download, you have to agree to its terms and conditions. For this app you would have to agree to share it with enforcement.

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#956217 - 04/25/16 12:20 PM Re: Why do we have to SEND in CRCs? [Re: Eric Kraig]
_WW_ Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/30/13
Posts: 233
Loc: Skagit
Originally Posted By: Eric Kraig
And if he doesn't want to? Little privacy issue there...


How can there be a privacy issue with seeing a digital catch record card as opposed to a paper one?

Cripes-a-Mighty! They do it with proof of insurance cards!
Quit trying to make this harder than it needs to be...

Are we going to have to drag you kicking and screaming into the 21st century?
_________________________
Catch & Release Is Not A Crime

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#956218 - 04/25/16 12:43 PM Re: Why do we have to SEND in CRCs? [Re: Sal Fario]
Eric Kraig Offline
Fry

Registered: 09/29/09
Posts: 34

Hey, I'm all for it.

What's so great about the 21st century anyway? Seems like there were more fish around in the last one.

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#956224 - 04/25/16 01:38 PM Re: Why do we have to SEND in CRCs? [Re: Sal Fario]
OceanSun Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 07/01/04
Posts: 1303
Loc: North Creek
Eric, Is WDFW already working with a consulting firm on the CRC app engineering, UX design and development? If not, I'd love to throw my hat into that ring.

I've got some great ideas around additional functionality that would drive adoption and usage as well as getting sponsors to pay for it.

Dan Meyer, Director of Digital Strategy, Fresh Consulting

And, I'll take last century's fish over this century's apps any day!
_________________________
. . . and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and have dominion over the fish of the sea . . .

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#956229 - 04/25/16 02:37 PM Re: Why do we have to SEND in CRCs? [Re: OceanSun]
Eric Kraig Offline
Fry

Registered: 09/29/09
Posts: 34
Ocean Sun,

I pm'd you. Thanks!

- Eric

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#956230 - 04/25/16 02:43 PM Re: Why do we have to SEND in CRCs? [Re: _WW_]
wsu Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 06/23/04
Posts: 422
Lots of reason for privacy issues, not the least of which is that cell phones are basically computers these days and have all sorts of information. Law enforcement cannot search a cell phone without first obtaining a warrant.

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#956259 - 04/26/16 12:43 PM Re: Why do we have to SEND in CRCs? [Re: wsu]
NOFISH Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 2994
Loc: Olalla, WA
Mailed mine in today in typical Knuckle-dragger fashion, just like the last 42 years....not a big deal...thank you for hanging around these parts Mr. Kraig thumbs
_________________________
Does anyone know where the love of God goes when the waves turn the minutes to hours......Gordon Lightfoot

Damn Stam!
Remember, Ask yourself "What would Stam do?" smile

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#956272 - 04/26/16 04:28 PM Re: Why do we have to SEND in CRCs? [Re: NOFISH]
jam session Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 268
Loc: Lake Goodwin
Yeah, mailed mine today too. Would much prefer doing it online/phone and don't see why enforcement access could not be a condition of purchase. Mailing it in is inconvenient, but not a big deal. My biggest complaint is with the thermal paper media. Dissolves in the rain and difficult to write on in outdoor conditions. No problem at all when I'm in my buddies heated hard top cabin cruiser but a PIA when in the driftboat, open sled or wading.

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#956275 - 04/26/16 06:31 PM Re: Why do we have to SEND in CRCs? [Re: Eric Kraig]
TedR Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 10/26/09
Posts: 466
Loc: South Sound
Eric,

Thanks for chiming in, I wouldn't mind if you did it more often. Your comment about being inconsistent with respect to the $10 fee for not reporting crab but no fee for not returning your CRC helped me see the process a little better. I had always thought the inconsistency was silly but given how you describe it, I surely appreciate the inconsistency!

Ted


Edited by TedR (04/26/16 06:31 PM)
_________________________
FEAR THE BEARD

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#956276 - 04/26/16 06:36 PM Re: Why do we have to SEND in CRCs? [Re: _WW_]
TedR Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 10/26/09
Posts: 466
Loc: South Sound
Originally Posted By: _WW_
Originally Posted By: Eric Kraig
And if he doesn't want to? Little privacy issue there...


How can there be a privacy issue with seeing a digital catch record card as opposed to a paper one?

Cripes-a-Mighty! They do it with proof of insurance cards!
Quit trying to make this harder than it needs to be...

Are we going to have to drag you kicking and screaming into the 21st century?


Because we can handle it with technology doesn't mean we should. If you really are in the 21st century you would be aware of the myriad of ways this could go wrong, such as the CRC app leaking data in or out, intentionally or not, to name just one.
_________________________
FEAR THE BEARD

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#956278 - 04/26/16 06:49 PM Re: Why do we have to SEND in CRCs? [Re: Sal Fario]
fp Offline
Old Duffer

Registered: 03/15/99
Posts: 2967
Loc: Hoquiam,WA.USA
Mailed ours via snail mail. Wutz a smart phone?

fp

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#956281 - 04/26/16 08:35 PM Re: Why do we have to SEND in CRCs? [Re: Sal Fario]
Piper
Unregistered


sent in a pdf by email...

kinda curious if mine will get counted...

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#956294 - 04/27/16 06:08 AM Re: Why do we have to SEND in CRCs? [Re: TedR]
_WW_ Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/30/13
Posts: 233
Loc: Skagit
Originally Posted By: TedR


Because we can handle it with technology doesn't mean we should. If you really are in the 21st century you would be aware of the myriad of ways this could go wrong, such as the CRC app leaking data in or out, intentionally or not, to name just one.


Life is full of risks, don't be cowed by the fear.
_________________________
Catch & Release Is Not A Crime

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#956295 - 04/27/16 06:33 AM Re: Why do we have to SEND in CRCs? [Re: Sal Fario]
Eric Kraig Offline
Fry

Registered: 09/29/09
Posts: 34
Piper,

We'll count it if we get it! (Although PDFs are kind of a PITA.) What e-mail address did you send it to to?


Both online fish reporting and the CRC app will be coming, it just won't be as soon as most of us would like.

It's funny to see how quickly snail mail has gone out of fashion. Some people will go to great lengths to avoid putting stamp to envelope, like driving for 30 miles to a regional office to drop off their card, or spending twenty minutes copying their catch into an Excel spreadsheet and e-mailing it in. All to save forty-seven cents.

- Eric

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#956296 - 04/27/16 06:39 AM Re: Why do we have to SEND in CRCs? [Re: Sal Fario]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7412
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Then there are us fossils who don't want apps or a smart phone or ..... Snail mail is still a highlight of the day.

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#956297 - 04/27/16 06:52 AM Re: Why do we have to SEND in CRCs? [Re: Carcassman]
Eric Kraig Offline
Fry

Registered: 09/29/09
Posts: 34

I know! Walking to the mailbox gets me out of the house, right?

These millennial kids, though - take away their smart phones and they wiggle around fearfully, like hermit crabs without their shells... grin

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#956298 - 04/27/16 07:12 AM Re: Why do we have to SEND in CRCs? [Re: Sal Fario]
_WW_ Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/30/13
Posts: 233
Loc: Skagit
I kept track on a notched stick, can I send that in?
_________________________
Catch & Release Is Not A Crime

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#956300 - 04/27/16 07:38 AM Re: Why do we have to SEND in CRCs? [Re: Sal Fario]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7412
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Was recently in Costa Rica and was so nice to see people walking around where you could actually see their faces rather than the tops of their heads as they have their eyes glued to their phone. And, damn few walking around with earphones.

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#956346 - 04/27/16 09:14 PM Re: Why do we have to SEND in CRCs? [Re: Sal Fario]
Steelheadman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/15/99
Posts: 4214
Loc: Poulsbo, WA,USA
I'd rather report electronically. Crab reporting is easier. Now I have to lift my carcuss out of the recliner, go downstairs get my catch card, scan a copy for my records, grab an envelope out of the bedroom, a stamp in the drawer, write the wdfw address down, and remember to put it in the mailbox when I leave to catch the bus in the AM.

An app would be easier. Just upgraded my smart phone and watch. My wife has been doing things electronically for years. It's been a while since I've actually sent anything in the mail or write a check. I guess you can teach an old babyboomer new tricks.
_________________________
I'd Rather Be Fishing for Summer Steelhead!

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#956442 - 04/28/16 07:34 PM Re: Why do we have to SEND in CRCs? [Re: Eric Kraig]
Piper
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Eric Kraig
Piper,

We'll count it if we get it! (Although PDFs are kind of a PITA.) What e-mail address did you send it to to?




Catch.Reporting@dfw.wa.gov


don't even talk to me about what a PITA a PDF is... try carting around 3' of licences and catch record cards per person and writing on those cards in the rain and with wet hands and rusty pens...

I have to carry a waterproof box every where I go with nothing but licenses and pens, and I'm still worried when my pen wont write on the wet plastic paper and I can see the WDFW boat in the distance just waiting to write me a ticket if that f'r fails

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#956495 - 04/29/16 12:39 PM Re: Why do we have to SEND in CRCs? [Re: Sal Fario]
chasbo Offline
Spawner

Registered: 10/09/07
Posts: 822
Loc: oly
Quit your bitchin, a year from now the cards will pretty much be empty

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#956520 - 04/29/16 04:57 PM Re: Why do we have to SEND in CRCs? [Re: chasbo]
Brewer Offline
2112

Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 4996
Loc: in the mass production zone
Originally Posted By: chasbo
Quit your bitchin, a year from now the cards will pretty much be empty


just think, 10 years from now you won't even have a need for the pen. a regular license will be $75 a piece. oh! a extra 4' of plastic paper too. fridge
_________________________

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#956664 - 05/02/16 01:26 PM Re: Why do we have to SEND in CRCs? [Re: ]
Eric Kraig Offline
Fry

Registered: 09/29/09
Posts: 34

Piper,

That's the place. Did you hear back from us?

The thermal paper is a pain! The more waterproof you make it, the harder it is to write on, and vice versa. I always have to get the ballpoint "started" by writing on my hand or something before writing on a wet card. If fishing is good my hand will be covered with ink smears...

- Eric

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#956670 - 05/02/16 02:42 PM Re: Why do we have to SEND in CRCs? [Re: Eric Kraig]
Piper
Unregistered


yes I did hear back... almost right away, thanks!

hopefully next year when you don't have to input any salmon catch record cards, you can put that money to an online reporting system wink

just kidding, sorta wink

BTW, I am glad to hear you do have a better system on the table and thanks for keeping us updated.

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