Check

 

Defiance Boats!

LURECHARGE!

THE PP OUTDOOR FORUMS

Kast Gear!

Power Pro Shimano Reels G Loomis Rods

  Willie boats! Puffballs!

 

Three Rivers Marine

 

 
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#958211 - 06/01/16 08:40 PM Skok Closure
BiLLYiZME Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 07/30/05
Posts: 118
Loc: Kitsap

Top
#958213 - 06/01/16 08:51 PM Re: Skok Closure [Re: BiLLYiZME]
blackmouth Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/05/04
Posts: 2713
Loc: right place/wrong time
Those darned executive orders can certainly be troublesome.
_________________________
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."
Winston Churchill

"So it goes." Kurt Vonnegut jr.

Top
#958214 - 06/01/16 09:12 PM Re: Skok Closure [Re: BiLLYiZME]
jgreen Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 04/18/12
Posts: 315
Loc: Elma, WA
Well now we can just sell the hatchery at Purdy Creek to them. Im sure the State will spend it on other recreational fishing opportunities. Right?

Top
#958216 - 06/01/16 09:23 PM Re: Skok Closure [Re: BiLLYiZME]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The Commission has directed WDFW to support the folks who pay the freight. Of course, taking the Skok fish in the Canal, Straits, and Ocean does count but I suspect that program size will be reviewed.

But, there is (or was) a component of George Adams that is mitigation for the Cushman Project so it will stay as long as Tacoma pays.

It will be interesting to see, as the Tribes "close" sporties off that hatchery production shifts.

Top
#958217 - 06/01/16 09:40 PM Re: Skok Closure [Re: BiLLYiZME]
jgreen Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 04/18/12
Posts: 315
Loc: Elma, WA
The Washington Laws on private property along water ways are pretty clear, to me at least. Average annual high water mark, that includes gravel bars, are state property. Gravel bars are considered stream bed in Washington state. No one actually owns the water. The stream bed under the water is the States.

I have been yelled at by tribal police for standing on the north side of the river, and have never been arrested or even ticketed.

The Purdy Cutoff is a state (maybe county) owned road. As a Washington state resident, I have the right to free passage and the means where permitted, parking along side the road. So my question here is, can they really do this? If the stream bed, gravel bars and the main road with parking access is owned by the state(not to mention the hatchery) why can the tribe shut down access?

It really feels cut and dry. Washington law is fairly clear on the matter.

Top
#958222 - 06/02/16 04:57 AM Re: Skok Closure [Re: BiLLYiZME]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
The contention is that the treaty establishing the Skokomish Rez gave them the stream bed as the border, not the edge of the river.

I can't see this one going down without a fight, I hope the AG's office is getting tuned up for it.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


Top
#958225 - 06/02/16 05:11 AM Re: Skok Closure [Re: BiLLYiZME]
superfly Offline
The Renegade White Man

Registered: 02/16/00
Posts: 2424
Loc: The Coast or the Keys !!!
this is going to get ugly, as it gets closer to the normal opener .....I see a lawsuit or straight revolt and revolution or cowboys and indians wuth the state being the [Bleeeeep!] idiots for closing it down to sportsmen who pay for those fish and its a wdfw run hatchery.......how [Bleeeeep!] stupid this state is and the new top dog a complete [Bleeeeep!] idiot.....Phil would have never let this happen...............
_________________________
Facebook/Superfly Guides


360-888-7772

Stay Tuned for upcoming Hunts & Fishing info...........

New website & Channel Dropping soon !

Stay tuned for Turkey, Bear & Deer Hunts Along with Guided Sport Fishing.

Book Release Prior to Christmas 2021






Top
#958227 - 06/02/16 07:56 AM Re: Skok Closure [Re: superfly]
bob r Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 04/17/13
Posts: 289
Originally Posted By: superfly
this is going to get ugly, as it gets closer to the normal opener .....I see a lawsuit or straight revolt and revolution or cowboys and indians wuth the state being the [Bleeeeep!] idiots for closing it down to sportsmen who pay for those fish and its a wdfw run hatchery.......how [Bleeeeep!] stupid this state is and the new top dog a complete [Bleeeeep!] idiot.....Phil would have never let this happen...............


Phil Anderson was a piece of [Bleeeeep!] as a director, the only thing he did was line his own pockets as the head of the Westport Charter Boat Association. He would continually push (and get!) extra chinook limits when quotas weren't met in what he considered a "late": run. It never was late, just paper fish projections. He bent us all over for commercial gill netters. What a sh*thead! Bob R

Top
#958229 - 06/02/16 08:16 AM Re: Skok Closure [Re: BiLLYiZME]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13521
As Carcassman mentioned in his post, operation of George Adams fish hatchery is paid for in part by Tacoma Power as partial mitigation for the Cushman hydro project. If the Skokomish Tribe is granted ownership of the lower river, it stands to reason that WDFW shut down the state-funded portion of George Adams and any other state-funded anadromous fish production in the river basin. It seems like the Skok Tribe stands to lose by winning.

Top
#958231 - 06/02/16 08:29 AM Re: Skok Closure [Re: BiLLYiZME]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
That would include McKernan which used to kick out a whole bunch of chum. Take away the chum hatchery production nd you'll have to take a while to restore all those HC chum streams and fish at a wild stock rate. I agree with Salmo that the Tribes may lose a lot by "winning".

Top
#958232 - 06/02/16 08:29 AM Re: Skok Closure [Re: BiLLYiZME]
blackmouth Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/05/04
Posts: 2713
Loc: right place/wrong time
The article in the Kitsap sun states.
Originally Posted By: kitsap sun
In its opinion, the Interior Department relied on an 1855 treaty and 1874 executive order that established the reservation's boundaries.
_________________________
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."
Winston Churchill

"So it goes." Kurt Vonnegut jr.

Top
#958234 - 06/02/16 08:52 AM Re: Skok Closure [Re: BiLLYiZME]
Dogfish Offline
Poodle Smolt

Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 10979
Loc: McCleary, WA
_________________________
"Give me the anger, fish! Give me the anger!"

They call me POODLE SMOLT!

The Discover Pass is brought to you by your friends at the CCA.

Top
#958240 - 06/02/16 10:11 AM Re: Skok Closure [Re: BiLLYiZME]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
So: We seem to be reasoning out that the Tribe will lose a bunch of hatchery fish if they win this. Do we really believe the Tribe didn't consider that risk and decide they would still benefit from getting whitey off the river? Is there precedent for WDFW closing hatcheries due to lack of sport fisher access to the fish produced?

There was another thread here recently that addressed what I thought was a ridiculous closure of Lake Cushman to non-tribal fishing. Turned out the justification lied in a Skok Tribe/Tacoma Power project (advertised) to restore salmon stocks to the upper North Fork that is just beginning to release smolts. This development makes me wonder if the Tribe's plan is to replace the harvest lost from closing the lower river to non-tribal fishing with harvest from their new hatchery. Consider the potential benefits to the Tribe:

$ Easy terminal harvest/egg take at the base of the dams.
$ PR points for restoring "wild" salmon to a stream in which they were practically (and functionally) extinct.
$ No more sharing of whatever catch is available with whitey.
$ No more enforcement issues on the river....

The big one for me is getting rid of the catch sharing. Even with less hatchery production (which I don't think will happen, whether we close our hatcheries or not), 100% of the available catch is likely to be very near or better than what they get from their 50% today.

The chum thing is a bit compelling, but I suspect they'll find a way around that issue.

Anybody else see shades of the Lower Quinault in this deal? Would anybody be surprised (should this deal go down) to learn that non-tribal fishers can fish the Lower Skok for kings or Lake Cushman for sockeye after all... provided they're with a tribal guide?

That was a long-winded way of saying that I doubt the Tribe will back down if we threaten to shut down our hatcheries. Pretty sure they have a Plan B in the works.

Top
#958243 - 06/02/16 10:33 AM Re: Skok Closure [Re: BiLLYiZME]
On The Swing Offline
Spawner

Registered: 02/06/03
Posts: 783
First off flicker, the Skokomish Tribe doesn't have the ability to guide, it's not written in their treaty, and I highly doubt that the QIN & Makah political machines will let them somehow change their treaty to allow it...they don't want to mess with their market of tribal guiding, as several people have told me in convos on the issue.

Second, I don't understand why just because the lower river is tribal you guys think it'll close...
Well it will, but the skoks have more than enough money to buy it and let the feds run it for them (like cook creek).
They can drop the run size and have a Wipeout fishery in the slough..

All the while, and thru this threads time, the native chinook production continues to get driven harder into the mud, soon to be followed by others


Edited by On The Swing (06/02/16 10:34 AM)
_________________________
Fish gills are like diesel engines, don't run them out of fuel!

Top
#958246 - 06/02/16 11:19 AM Re: Skok Closure [Re: Dogfish]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13521


DOI's opinion is that Skok v. France established the boundary for tidelands only, and not along the river, even though the river is tidally influenced along the reservation.

Top
#958251 - 06/02/16 11:31 AM Re: Skok Closure [Re: Salmo g.]
Brewer Offline
2112

Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 4996
Loc: in the mass production zone
Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
Skok Tribe stands to lose by winning.


best reasoning so far.

the injuns eventually win. injuns love sticking it to the whiteman these days.
_________________________

Top
#958256 - 06/02/16 11:51 AM Re: Skok Closure [Re: BiLLYiZME]
Krijack Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 1531
Loc: Tacoma
Salmo,
Do you know where I can get a copy of the opinion and who made it. It does not appear to be readily available from the Department of Interior's web site. I think you are right in what they did in regards to Frqnce, but I would like to see if they included any reason for making that decision and what they relied on. In addition, I think I might try to file a freedom of information act to see who else may have influenced the decision or weighed in on it. . It would be interesting to see what, if any, political influence was exercised. I would also like to see what the original request from the tribe looked like. It feels a bit unfair that no one was allowed adequate time to file briefs or opinions on the matter before a decision was made.

Thanks



Edited by Krijack (06/03/16 10:09 AM)

Top
#958257 - 06/02/16 12:13 PM Re: Skok Closure [Re: BiLLYiZME]
The Moderator Offline
The Chosen One

Registered: 02/09/00
Posts: 14486
Loc: Tuleville
Does this mean I have to return the new step ladder I bought for this season on the Skok?



I was looking forward to getting away from Reiter and on to a nice quiet river all to myself......



_________________________
Tule King Paker

Top
#958258 - 06/02/16 12:14 PM Re: Skok Closure [Re: BiLLYiZME]
Brewer Offline
2112

Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 4996
Loc: in the mass production zone
always keep in mind the injuns have more $$$$ in fighting in court over "their" rights. Keep in mind their attorneys love this kinda stuff.

"a bit unfair"

It was a bit unfair how the whiteman stole, desecrated, slaughtered and committed a near total genocide of the injuns.


just saying in our modern times the tribes pretty much can AND DO what EVER the f u c k they want. WDFG is powerless to stop or counter them. or any else .... just saying.
_________________________

Top
#958260 - 06/02/16 12:41 PM Re: Skok Closure [Re: BiLLYiZME]
Krijack Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 1531
Loc: Tacoma
Here is the opinion... https://solicitor.doi.gov/opinions/M-37034.pdf. A quick reading reveals several problems with this opinion. First, they basically ignore the Skokomish/France decision. By doing so, they are able to ignore the conclusions in it and make their own. A quick review of all the maps attached appear to not include the river or its bed. Second, the decision mentions the need for fishing, ignoring the fact that the tribe raised this question and was assured that the reservation was not for hunting and fishing, but rather only for residing and that they were able to utilize all their traditional areas (as can be seen in the attachment to the decision). This explanation is clearly at odds with the decision. The decision also tries to assert that owner ship of the bed and water is essential to the fishery. They neglect to understand that the tribe no longer uses weirs, that the weirs would be explicitly allowed if the tribe opted to use them, and that sharing of the water and river bed has been done for the last hundred years. Further more, the tribe itself at one point issued non-tribal permits at a cost, further implying that shared use did not prevent their ability to use the river.

All in all, its a very poor decision in my opinion and does not stand up to historical or common knowledge


Edited by Krijack (06/03/16 10:11 AM)

Top
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >

Search

Site Links
Home
Our Washington Fishing
Our Alaska Fishing
Reports
Rates
Contact Us
About Us
Recipes
Photos / Videos
Visit us on Facebook
Today's Birthdays
CHUBS
Recent Gallery Pix
hatchery steelhead
Hatchery Releases into the Pacific and Harvest
Who's Online
1 registered (Carcassman), 1080 Guests and 2 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
John Boob, Lawrence, I'm Still RichG, feyt, Freezeout
11498 Registered Users
Top Posters
Todd 28170
Dan S. 17149
Sol Duc 16138
The Moderator 14486
Salmo g. 13521
eyeFISH 12766
STRIKE ZONE 12107
Dogfish 10979
ParaLeaks 10513
Jerry Garcia 9160
Forum Stats
11498 Members
16 Forums
63773 Topics
645302 Posts

Max Online: 3001 @ 01/28/20 02:48 PM

Join the PP forums.

It's quick, easy, and always free!

Working for the fish and our future fishing opportunities:

The Wild Steelhead Coalition

The Photo & Video Gallery. Nearly 1200 images from our fishing trips! Tips, techniques, live weight calculator & more in the Fishing Resource Center. The time is now to get prime dates for 2018 Olympic Peninsula Winter Steelhead , don't miss out!.

| HOME | ALASKA FISHING | WASHINGTON FISHING | RIVER REPORTS | FORUMS | FISHING RESOURCE CENTER | CHARTER RATES | CONTACT US | WHAT ABOUT BOB? | PHOTO & VIDEO GALLERY | LEARN ABOUT THE FISH | RECIPES | SITE HELP & FAQ |