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#962965 - 08/17/16 04:31 PM Re: Elwha & Nisqually steelhead gene bank rivers [Re: bushbear]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
So, forty years of early run plants and we still have native, wild fish worthy of being protected as a gene bank. Amazing! Are we enabling a myth?
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#962969 - 08/17/16 05:36 PM Re: Elwha & Nisqually steelhead gene bank rivers [Re: WDFW X 1 = 0]
Salmo g. Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13521
Originally Posted By: WDFW X 1 = 0
In the 70s we would launch the sled at the highest tank bridge and run up river to a big flat below the dam.
Freedrifting our way back down.
The fish were big, wild, and free.

I acknowledge contributing to their demise.
You shoulda been there.


I assume you mean that you ran your sled from the tank crossing upstream to the Centralia diversion dam. Elsewise I would so love to see you run any sled upstream past the diversion dam up to La Grande Dam, not to mention freedrifting back downstream, even if only from McKenna. There's some gnarly water that chews up driftboats. I'd like to see the sled that freedrifted back down through that. And who "freedrifted" in the 70s? Thought it was only boondoggin' back then.

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#962971 - 08/17/16 05:49 PM Re: Elwha & Nisqually steelhead gene bank rivers [Re: bushbear]
OncyT Offline
Spawner

Registered: 02/06/08
Posts: 506
There were relatively small releases of hatchery fish and a relatively robust and productive natural population. From 1979 to 1992 the percentage of hatchery fish in the tribal catch averaged only a little over 5% and the maximum during that time period was 14%.

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#962974 - 08/17/16 06:36 PM Re: Elwha & Nisqually steelhead gene bank rivers [Re: OncyT]
RB3 Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 08/24/10
Posts: 1383
Originally Posted By: OncyT
Originally Posted By: RB3
I'm not sure if it will be set forth in the same manner, but we pay for steelhead plants on the skok. It's closed to us but up for natives to fish. I doubt this will be any different .

I'm pretty sure that releases of hatchery steelhead in the Skokomish River designated for harvest was ended in 2004. Since that time there has been a small integrated recovery program in the Skokomish, Duckabush and Dewatto Rivers. To my knowledge there has been no treaty or non-treaty fisheries in Hood Canal rivers since the release of Chambers Creek derived steelhead was stopped.




They release steelhead, brood stock program similar to the White River. It's hook and line fishing not gillnets. I pulled up the Skok tribe regs a few years back when I cared.
http://wdfw.wa.gov/fishing/plants/steelhead/2014.html


Edited by RB3 (08/17/16 06:41 PM)

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#962975 - 08/17/16 06:46 PM Re: Elwha & Nisqually steelhead gene bank rivers [Re: bushbear]
OncyT Offline
Spawner

Registered: 02/06/08
Posts: 506
That is exactly the integrated recovery program that I mentioned, and as I said they also had them on the Dewatto and Duckabush Rivers.

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#962976 - 08/17/16 06:51 PM Re: Elwha & Nisqually steelhead gene bank rivers [Re: bushbear]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
I did the drift down from McKenna. Once.

After that it was from Combat City (north side, just upstream from the tank crossing bridge which you could cross at the time) down to the railroad crossing.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#962977 - 08/17/16 06:58 PM Re: Elwha & Nisqually steelhead gene bank rivers [Re: OncyT]
RB3 Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 08/24/10
Posts: 1383
Originally Posted By: OncyT
That is exactly the integrated recovery program that I mentioned, and as I said they also had them on the Dewatto and Duckabush Rivers.


Yeah I got that. I was just saying they still fished on em.

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#962978 - 08/17/16 08:24 PM Re: Elwha & Nisqually steelhead gene bank rivers [Re: RB3]
OncyT Offline
Spawner

Registered: 02/06/08
Posts: 506
Originally Posted By: RB3
Yeah I got that. I was just saying they still fished on em.

Yes, you are correct. Since 2002/2003, on average, the Skokomish Tribe has caught less than 8 steelhead per year, with a range of 0 to 24 fish/year.



Edited by OncyT (08/17/16 08:27 PM)

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#962990 - 08/18/16 08:14 AM Re: Elwha & Nisqually steelhead gene bank rivers [Re: Salmo g.]
WDFW X 1 = 0 Offline
My Area code makes me cooler than you

Registered: 01/27/15
Posts: 4549
Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
Originally Posted By: WDFW X 1 = 0
In the 70s we would launch the sled at the highest tank bridge and run up river to a big flat below the dam.
Freedrifting our way back down.
The fish were big, wild, and free.

I acknowledge contributing to their demise.
You shoulda been there.


I assume you mean that you ran your sled from the tank crossing upstream to the Centralia diversion dam. Elsewise I would so love to see you run any sled upstream past the diversion dam up to La Grande Dam, not to mention freedrifting back downstream, even if only from McKenna. There's some gnarly water that chews up driftboats. I'd like to see the sled that freedrifted back down through that. And who "freedrifted" in the 70s? Thought it was only boondoggin' back then.



Salmo,
There was actually a few that free drifted.
Dragging an anchor sucked.
Not to mention there where very few sleds back then.
We would go out to 4 corners in Yelm, take a slight right(Bald hills road?), go out there quite a ways turn left on a gravel road, drop down hill, and head to an old timber structure bridge. The launch was on our side of the river below the bridge. The river from there up to the big tall dam wound through a bunch of alder flats with log jams on the sides.
Your right you would have liked to have seen it and it's obvious you didn't. It was epic and easily runnable with a sled.

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#963076 - 08/19/16 05:00 AM Re: Elwha & Nisqually steelhead gene bank rivers [Re: OncyT]
RB3 Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 08/24/10
Posts: 1383
Originally Posted By: OncyT
Originally Posted By: RB3
Yeah I got that. I was just saying they still fished on em.

Yes, you are correct. Since 2002/2003, on average, the Skokomish Tribe has caught less than 8 steelhead per year, with a range of 0 to 24 fish/year.



Caught or reported? I've talked to a gillnetter during salmon season and he told me he's done very well on steelhead fishing.

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#963078 - 08/19/16 06:23 AM Re: Elwha & Nisqually steelhead gene bank rivers [Re: bushbear]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
If they are not reported they were not caught.

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#963081 - 08/19/16 07:27 AM Re: Elwha & Nisqually steelhead gene bank rivers [Re: bushbear]
OncyT Offline
Spawner

Registered: 02/06/08
Posts: 506
I'm not going through this argument again. The catch estimates are from a joint tribal/WDFW steelhead harvest plan. Anybody here that wants to implement a better catch estimation method or that has a better catch estimate, feel free to provide the details or results of those.

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#963102 - 08/19/16 01:00 PM Re: Elwha & Nisqually steelhead gene bank rivers [Re: OncyT]
RB3 Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 08/24/10
Posts: 1383
Originally Posted By: OncyT
I'm not going through this argument again. The catch estimates are from a joint tribal/WDFW steelhead harvest plan. Anybody here that wants to implement a better catch estimation method or that has a better catch estimate, feel free to provide the details or results of those.


Who is trying to start an argument? People here are so damn up tight when it comes to a civil conversation about this stuff. You can implement whatever you want, but the lack of enforcement and subsequent punishments counteract the brightset plans that the good idea fairy offers.

I merely spoke on information I've found and gathered from talking to someone that had 0 reason to lie or embellish his information.

I humbly apologize for doubting the joint efforts of WDFW and the tribe in addition to questioning the integrity of the catch reporting of tribal fishers.

There we go double rainbows and unicorns for everyone.


Edited by RB3 (08/19/16 01:05 PM)

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#963105 - 08/19/16 01:43 PM Re: Elwha & Nisqually steelhead gene bank rivers [Re: bushbear]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Having worked with actual catch data, but it was back in the 80s, talked to fishermen (rec, commercial, tribal) I was told more than once of catch that was not reported, reported for other areas, and so on. Many of my coworkers had the same sort of stories from other fishers. That doesn't include investigations and documentation by LE.

That said, the only numbers that can be used for management are defensible ones that everybody agrees to. The state and tribes have agreed as to what they will use and how they will collect/develop/collate/estimate. They are what they are.

But I still maintain that if we had accurate (not precise) numbers of catch and escapement that we would be surprised at the actual number of fish out there.

But, just because we are (say) underestimating escapement does not mean the runs are in better shape. PS chum escapement goals were initially set as the mean of the three highest years. Some folks looked into it 20 years later and found that the escapement numbers we were using were about 1/3 of actual. So, these geniuses thought we actually had a lot more fish to catch if we estimated escapement correctly. Nope. If the number we were using was an underestimated number and the real number was 3 times higher, so was the goal.

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#963108 - 08/19/16 02:28 PM Re: Elwha & Nisqually steelhead gene bank rivers [Re: Carcassman]
OncyT Offline
Spawner

Registered: 02/06/08
Posts: 506
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
That said, the only numbers that can be used for management are defensible ones that everybody agrees to. The state and tribes have agreed as to what they will use and how they will collect/develop/collate/estimate. They are what they are.


Thank you, CM. That is all that I am getting at. (I too, worked with catch data in my career, and heard the same or at least similar stories.)

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#963111 - 08/19/16 02:47 PM Re: Elwha & Nisqually steelhead gene bank rivers [Re: bushbear]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Yeah Oncy. You can't be in that pit without hearing things, seeing things.

I wish people would understand that the management we have is based on the numbers we have. Managers depend on the honesty of the harvesters and buyers.

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#963254 - 08/21/16 10:32 PM Re: Elwha & Nisqually steelhead gene bank rivers [Re: bushbear]
Steelheadman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/15/99
Posts: 4214
Loc: Poulsbo, WA,USA
Guess I'll never ever get to fish NIsqually. At least I've fished the Elwha once. I don't understand why they believe the fish will thrive once they are done planting fish. I'm still waiting for the eastern OP rivers to be thriving with fish.
_________________________
I'd Rather Be Fishing for Summer Steelhead!

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#963258 - 08/22/16 09:41 AM Re: Elwha & Nisqually steelhead gene bank rivers [Re: bushbear]
WDFW X 1 = 0 Offline
My Area code makes me cooler than you

Registered: 01/27/15
Posts: 4549
"Guess I'll never ever get to fish NIsqually. At least I've fished the Elwha once. I don't understand why they believe the fish will thrive once they are done planting fish. I'm still waiting for the eastern OP rivers to be thriving with fish."

Yup they may as well be trying to bring back Eve to the garden.

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#963468 - 08/27/16 05:06 PM Re: Elwha & Nisqually steelhead gene bank rivers [Re: WDFW X 1 = 0]
GPS Offline
Parr

Registered: 04/09/14
Posts: 43
Originally Posted By: WDFW X 1 = 0
Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
Originally Posted By: WDFW X 1 = 0
In the 70s we would launch the sled at the highest tank bridge and run up river to a big flat below the dam.
Freedrifting our way back down.
The fish were big, wild, and free.

I acknowledge contributing to their demise.
You shoulda been there.


I assume you mean that you ran your sled from the tank crossing upstream to the Centralia diversion dam. Elsewise I would so love to see you run any sled upstream past the diversion dam up to La Grande Dam, not to mention freedrifting back downstream, even if only from McKenna. There's some gnarly water that chews up driftboats. I'd like to see the sled that freedrifted back down through that. And who "freedrifted" in the 70s? Thought it was only boondoggin' back then.



Salmo,
There was actually a few that free drifted.
Dragging an anchor sucked.
Not to mention there where very few sleds back then.
We would go out to 4 corners in Yelm, take a slight right(Bald hills road?), go out there quite a ways turn left on a gravel road, drop down hill, and head to an old timber structure bridge. The launch was on our side of the river below the bridge. The river from there up to the big tall dam wound through a bunch of alder flats with log jams on the sides.
Your right you would have liked to have seen it and it's obvious you didn't. It was epic and easily runnable with a sled.


The bridge you're referring to could be the Weyerhaueser bridge right above the mouth of the Mashel. They had a little camp area there you could launch from. The roads to it have not been open since like the 80's. I think state parks actually bought it and a park is somewhere in the works. Or it could have been Peissner Bridge, which is closer to Bald Hill road and was used as a launch.



The "Tank Bridge" is miles below, with the impassable diversion dam in between.


Edited by GPS (08/27/16 05:11 PM)

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#963514 - 08/28/16 11:17 PM Re: Elwha & Nisqually steelhead gene bank rivers [Re: bushbear]
Chum Man Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/07/99
Posts: 2691
Loc: Yelmish
The tribe has been hard at work trying to get any access by boat at the "state park" blocked, or so I've heard...

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