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#968210 - 11/13/16 09:34 PM Open the door and turn on the lights...
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12766
I believe the rules at NOF are about to get turned upside down.

A bit of transparency never hurts....

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2tWjgmgVy3yUWtFUlB3c3RKQ1U/view
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#968216 - 11/13/16 11:53 PM Re: Open the door and turn on the lights... [Re: eyeFISH]
OceanSun Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 07/01/04
Posts: 1303
Loc: North Creek
I like it!
_________________________
. . . and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and have dominion over the fish of the sea . . .

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#968222 - 11/14/16 07:22 AM Re: Open the door and turn on the lights... [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7410
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
It may be like turning the lights on in a darkened tenement room. The roaches, rats, and mice all scurry for cover....

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#968228 - 11/14/16 08:32 AM Re: Open the door and turn on the lights... [Re: eyeFISH]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
Anxious to see WDFW's response.

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#968230 - 11/14/16 09:32 AM Re: Open the door and turn on the lights... [Re: eyeFISH]
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1075
Loc: Graham, WA
I'm willing to show up and stand at the door at the Co-managers/WDFW closed door meeting. Anyone willing to join me?

Maybe invite the press??
_________________________
"Forgiveness is between them and God. My job is to arrange the meeting."

1Sgt U.S. Army (Ret)

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#968237 - 11/14/16 11:34 AM Re: Open the door and turn on the lights... [Re: eyeFISH]
GodLovesUgly Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 04/20/09
Posts: 1269
Loc: WaRshington
This should extend beyond NOF as well.

Some of the hardest hits are the emergency closures that directly result from "meet and confer" conversations between Co-managers that occur OVER THE PHONE.

I would contest that transparency is paramount in ANY circumstance that will impact season setting,

"we ask that the tribal co-managers consider allowing the tribal and non-
tribal citizens an opportunity to observe (without participation) during co-management meetings wherein the discussion includes proposals for an upcoming harvest season(s)."

In the instance of emergency "meetings" there should be a physical location and schedule with meetings being conducted in a transparent way. No more "close the fishery now, here comes our lawyers."
_________________________
When I grow up I want to be,
One of the harvesters of the sea.
I think before my days are done,
I want to be a fisherman.

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#968241 - 11/14/16 12:09 PM Re: Open the door and turn on the lights... [Re: eyeFISH]
Sky-Guy Offline
The Tide changed

Registered: 08/31/00
Posts: 7232
Loc: Everett
I've been asking for open meetings and Advisory Panel participation in these meetings for the last three years. Last year, we were told that we would be able to attend some co manager meetings but it never materialized. Abesnt of any direct participation, I've also asked for meeting minutes and the Department has refused by not supplying them nor following up on the recommendations.

In many ways, the Advisory group acts in a strategic capacity, but without any visibility into how these meetings work, we are in the dark.
_________________________
You know something bad is going to happen when you hear..."Hey, hold my beer and watch this"

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#968251 - 11/14/16 01:18 PM Re: Open the door and turn on the lights... [Re: Sky-Guy]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4393
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
Quote:
In many ways, the Advisory group acts in a strategic capacity, but without any visibility into how these meetings work, we are in the dark.



Ah not being rude but I think that is their intent.


Edited by Rivrguy (11/14/16 01:55 PM)
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#968260 - 11/14/16 03:59 PM Re: Open the door and turn on the lights... [Re: eyeFISH]
bushbear Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 4709
Loc: Sequim
There was a time, some years back, when the Dept was able to get non-agency personnel into some meetings as observers. That didn't last very long.

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#968261 - 11/14/16 04:41 PM Re: Open the door and turn on the lights... [Re: eyeFISH]
Smalma Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 2844
Loc: Marysville
I'm a hundred per cent in favor of increased transparency of the NOF process (as well as other fish management processes).

That said I doubt that having the co-manager meetings open to the public would be very productive. There is just too much passion and diversity of interests on both sides of the table. It would be difficult to prevent progress from getting sidetracked by off topic debates.

Having given this issue a lot of thought I do have a suggestion that potentially would stream line the NOF process and at the same time increase transparency across the board. There is no reason not to take advantage to the technology available today. I would " stream" the co-manager meetings. The co-manager meetings should be limited to just a relatively small handful of policy folks from both sides of the table. Technical staff and other co-managers would be in separate rooms and the public would also be able to watch the meetings live without being in the room.

Direct public involvement would continue in the various NOF public meetings and I would hope via a interactive NOF web site. Such web site would not only allow the public to submit questions, opinions, etc. there should be links that provide immediate access to a variety of the data that drives the NOF. Such things as forecasts and methods, escapement history, run reconstruction. Additional information might be contact information for advisors so folks with concerns or a spoke person for their concerns would have a ready avenue.

The down side of all the above is that having a larger user involved and at the same time more informed users would be very much a double edge sword for some managers!

GodsLovesUgly
I think a major step in transparency in in-season updates and closures would to expand what was done this summer with the MA 9 and MA 10 summer Chinook selective fisheries. A table was available on WDFW's web site that list "quota" for those fisheries with frequent updates of in-season catch estimates. I see no reason why that could not be provided for all monitored salmon fisheries with at least updates at least a couple times a month.

Curt

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#968265 - 11/14/16 06:03 PM Re: Open the door and turn on the lights... [Re: Smalma]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12766
Originally Posted By: Smalma


Having given this issue a lot of thought I do have a suggestion that potentially would stream line the NOF process and at the same time increase transparency across the board. There is no reason not to take advantage to the technology available today. I would " stream" the co-manager meetings. The co-manager meetings should be limited to just a relatively small handful of policy folks from both sides of the table. Technical staff and other co-managers would be in separate rooms and the public would also be able to watch the meetings live without being in the room.



Give that man a GOLD star!
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#968300 - 11/15/16 06:31 AM Re: Open the door and turn on the lights... [Re: eyeFISH]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4393
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
Well guys in GH it was back some that observers could sit in and do just that observe. Hell one of the QIN used to bring a bag of smoked fish for all. What happened I am told was a couple of commercials just had to run their mouths so that did it. What should have happened is the offending parties should have been thrown out on their noses and staff apologize for the interruption and violation of the ground rules, did not happen. The point most are missing is that while the QIN prefer no public participation at all ( or so staff says ) so does WDF&W. It works to their preference as if one has not noticed they do not like interaction from the public so using the tribes as the guilty party works for them. Honesty around this issue is seldom present.


Edited by Rivrguy (11/15/16 07:12 AM)
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#968331 - 11/15/16 03:35 PM Re: Open the door and turn on the lights... [Re: eyeFISH]
DrifterWA Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 04/25/00
Posts: 5074
Loc: East of Aberdeen, West of Mont...
I like all the suggestions about "opening the meetings to the general public", be it "in room or closed circuit".

Taking this one step further, I'd like to see a "question/answer period", at the WDFW Commission meetings. The general public being allowed to ask questions of WDFW presenters......a 30 minute session might be very eye opening.
_________________________
"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"

"I thought growing older, would take longer"

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#968678 - 11/23/16 08:22 AM Re: Open the door and turn on the lights... [Re: eyeFISH]
Take-Down Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 02/29/08
Posts: 117
I completely support this. And thank the folks involved for their time and efforts.

Strategically, however, please consider not threatening to sue, especially in the passive manner in that letter. To a lawyer, a weak threat like that shows that you almost certainly don't have the bankroll or resolve to actually sue. So why put it in the letter?

If you want to use litigation to enforce your will (something that sport anglers should have started doing some time ago) you need to simply say that you will sue by a certain date if your request is not honored, then when it's not honored, you must in fact sue--using a good lawyer--who is probably fairly expensive. Then do it again on a different issue. And again on a different issue. And about that time, you won't have to threaten any more because it will be clear that you are both able, and willing, to utilize the courts to enforce your rights.


Edited by Take-Down (11/23/16 08:22 AM)

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#968691 - 11/23/16 11:21 AM Re: Open the door and turn on the lights... [Re: Take-Down]
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1075
Loc: Graham, WA
Originally Posted By: Take-Down
Strategically, however, please consider not threatening to sue, especially in the passive manner in that letter. To a lawyer, a weak threat like that shows that you almost certainly don't have the bankroll or resolve to actually sue. So why put it in the letter?
.


They have the attorneys and are well versed in litigation as evidenced by their involvement with the Willipa Bay fisheries that they have been very active in.

They do take contributions if you'd like to help...
_________________________
"Forgiveness is between them and God. My job is to arrange the meeting."

1Sgt U.S. Army (Ret)

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#968806 - 11/25/16 05:40 PM Re: Open the door and turn on the lights... [Re: eyeFISH]
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1075
Loc: Graham, WA
Tim Hamilton from THWFA is asking for everyone who would like to see a more transparent and open NOF process to send letters to Dir. Unsworth and to the Commission. Below is an email from Tim regarding the subject.
I've also include a copy of the letter I sent to the Directors office. Feel free to copy and paste.

Letter from Tim Hamilton, THFWA;

That would be great. I've added the following at the end of our feature on the website regarding the letter we sent in.

Those that would like to support the effort to open co-management meetings to the public are asked to send a short email to Director Jim Unsworth at Director (DFW) <director@dfw.wa.gov> and carbon copy the Commission at WDFW Commission <commission@dfw.wa.gov>

The more emails we can get in the better. I'd really appreciate you lighting up the blogs, social media, whatever you can do to get it out there.

Tim"

My letter to Director Unsworth's office and the Commission;

Director Unsworth,

As you are well aware, the relationship between the citizens of Washington State and our Tribal Co-managers is at a very low point. Following the chaos and mis-communications that took place last year at and following the NOF process it is understandable that many in the non-tribal community have a perception of misdeeds and mistrust.

You have a great opportunity to remedy a lot of the misconceptions as well as greatly improve relations between our communities.

We are asking you to concur with and put into place a method to open the Co-management/State NOF negotiations to the public. Further, we would like to have public records available for any electronic and telephonic communications where fishery are discussed.

By prohibiting the public from attending these meetings, the agency has perpetrated a climate of secrecy, mistrust and suspicion.

Please, do the right thing. Agree to open these meeting to the public, and press the Tribal Co-mangers to agree as well. If in fact everyone is negotiating in good faith, and there is nothing to hide, then there is no reason to keep the door closed to the tax payers!

Regards,"
_________________________
"Forgiveness is between them and God. My job is to arrange the meeting."

1Sgt U.S. Army (Ret)

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#969680 - 12/12/16 10:05 AM Re: Open the door and turn on the lights... [Re: eyeFISH]
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1075
Loc: Graham, WA
UPDATE
This is an update from Tim at Twin Harbors Fish and Wildlife Advocacy:

On Friday, we appeared before the Commission in Olympia to promote the transparency in NOF. The Dept (Warren) stated the tribes were "sternly opposed". Course the historical staff at WDFW led by Ron Warren are in the same boat, just won't admit it in public. However, the Commissioners themselves were very receptive. Wecker intro a "blue sheet" on Saturday which is an instruction to the staff for a briefing on the rights of the citizens and the applicable state laws. Passed unanimously.

It's going to be an uphill fight. The staff will try to argue that if the public is allowed to see what goes on that the tribes will refuse to negotiate and as a results the feds will block all non-tribal seasons in PS. Course, I'd see that as a BS scare tactic to try and get the Commissioners to back off. Warren is reportedly preparing the Dept's response to the letter we sent in.

As I've anticipated all along, I suspect we will have to seek a "boldt decision" for the people.

Tim


PLEASE!!! Continue to send letters to the commission, the Governor, the WDFW Director and to your legislative members endorsing this. Transparency in these negotiations is the first MAJOR step in equality! There is a reason the Tribes and WDFW are fighting this so hard!! It's State Law that these meeting be open to the public, yet they are violating the law and shutting us out! WHAT ARE THE HIDING???
Here is a list to send emails to:
commission@dfw.wa.gov (WDFW Commission General email)

Ron.Warren@dfw.wa.gov (Assistant Director - Fish Program) He's fighting against and is the spokesmen against!

Jim.Unsworth@dfw.wa.gov (Director, WDFW)

Miranda.Wecker@dfw.wa.gov (Member, WDFW Commission ) She Supports open meetings!!

http://www.governor.wa.gov/contact This will get you to a form to contact the Governors office.

cbowhay@nwifc.org (Northwest Indian Fisheries Commission,Craig Bowhay Fishery Programs Director.

https://fortress.wa.gov/atg/formhandler/ago/ContactForm.aspx State Attorney's Generals Office Contact Form.

THFWA@comcast.net (Twin Harbors Fish and Wildlife Advocacy) They are the ones initiating the action!!

The RCW at the heart of this:
RCW 42.30.010
Legislative declaration.
The legislature finds and declares that all public commissions, boards, councils, committees, subcommittees, departments, divisions, offices, and all other public agencies of this state and subdivisions thereof exist to aid in the conduct of the people's business. It is the intent of this chapter that their actions be taken openly and that their deliberations be conducted openly.
The people of this state do not yield their sovereignty to the agencies which serve them. The people, in delegating authority, do not give their public servants the right to decide what is good for the people to know and what is not good for them to know. The people insist on remaining informed so that they may retain control over the instruments they have created.


Edited by Bay wolf (12/12/16 01:35 PM)
_________________________
"Forgiveness is between them and God. My job is to arrange the meeting."

1Sgt U.S. Army (Ret)

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#969720 - 12/12/16 06:27 PM Re: Open the door and turn on the lights... [Re: eyeFISH]
Lucky Louie Offline
Carcass

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 2286
I never have liked how the NOF final meetings end with closed doors to the public. I agree that these meetings should be transparent, so sending this example off to many.

RCW 42.30.010
Legislative declaration.
“The legislature finds and declares that all public commissions, boards, councils, committees, subcommittees, departments, divisions, offices, and all other public agencies of this state and subdivisions thereof exist to aid in the conduct of the people's business. It is the intent of this chapter that their actions be taken openly and that their deliberations be conducted openly.

The people of this state do not yield their sovereignty to the agencies which serve them. The people, in delegating authority, do not give their public servants the right to decide what is good for the people to know and what is not good for them to know. The people insist on remaining informed so that they may retain control over the instruments they have created.”

This legislative declaration is not being followed by the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (WDFW) in their salmon allocation negotiations with the state tribes at the yearly North of Falcon (NOF) meetings.

We might have read or listened to media how the tribes took the conservation lead this year to not harvest Coho in Puget Sound because of poor Coho returning projections. What actually happened was that the Tulalip Tribe came out of these highly secretive meetings with a 100% allocation direct Coho fishery according to the List of Agreed Fisheries (LOAF). There is a big difference between conservation and 100% allocation going to one user group--- the Tulalip Tribes.

IMO, this example epitomizes why these illegal clandestine meetings should not exist according to RCW 42.30.010.
_________________________
The world will not be destroyed by those that are evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything.- Albert Einstein

No you can’t have my rights---I’m still using them





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#969725 - 12/12/16 07:45 PM Re: Open the door and turn on the lights... [Re: eyeFISH]
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1075
Loc: Graham, WA
Excellent!
I hope many, many others take the time to follow your example!
_________________________
"Forgiveness is between them and God. My job is to arrange the meeting."

1Sgt U.S. Army (Ret)

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#969736 - 12/13/16 07:17 AM Re: Open the door and turn on the lights... [Re: eyeFISH]
JustBecause Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 07/18/08
Posts: 237
I think one problem with using this rcw as a basis for access to the NOF meetings lies in the definition section. See highlighted section below. To me, this would not define the season negotiation meetings but the commission meetings where the seasons are finally adopted, which is a public meeting, where the final descision is made (action taken) and there is a vote that is publically taken.

RCW 42.30.020
Definitions.
As used in this chapter unless the context indicates otherwise:
(1) "Public agency" means:
(a) Any state board, commission, committee, department, educational institution, or other state agency which is created by or pursuant to statute, other than courts and the legislature;
(b) Any county, city, school district, special purpose district, or other municipal corporation or political subdivision of the state of Washington;
(c) Any subagency of a public agency which is created by or pursuant to statute, ordinance, or other legislative act, including but not limited to planning commissions, library or park boards, commissions, and agencies;
(d) Any policy group whose membership includes representatives of publicly owned utilities formed by or pursuant to the laws of this state when meeting together as or on behalf of participants who have contracted for the output of generating plants being planned or built by an operating agency.
(2) "Governing body" means the multimember board, commission, committee, council, or other policy or rule-making body of a public agency, or any committee thereof when the committee acts on behalf of the governing body, conducts hearings, or takes testimony or public comment.
(3) "Action" means the transaction of the official business of a public agency by a governing body including but not limited to receipt of public testimony, deliberations, discussions, considerations, reviews, evaluations, and final actions. "Final action" means a collective positive or negative decision, or an actual vote by a majority of the members of a governing body when sitting as a body or entity, upon a motion, proposal, resolution, order, or ordinance.
(4) "Meeting" means meetings at which action is taken.


But, I'm not a lawyer...

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