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#1059306 - 03/15/22 11:54 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET *** [Re: seabeckraised]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4399
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
Yes / No The GH Policy has us restricted to 5% by 3/5 but our 2022 forecast is much larger than 2021 so the 2022 5% is not the same impact number but larger. As to bag limits and time on the water that cannot be determined until staff work out the numbers.

What I have been told is the pressure to not follow the GHP is rather substantial all the way up to our favorite two mow em down Commissioners. Lacking direct knowledge one should not take that as gospel but you would be amazed how any Recs that I have contact with are prepared to push to drop 3/5 for an expanded season.

Conservation is like environmentalism, everybody is one as long as someone else foots the bill.
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#1059307 - 03/15/22 01:31 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
Krijack Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 1515
Loc: Tacoma
I know nothing about this process, but I am trying to understand what the impact of this statement is >>>>>> We will be limited by a provision in the Grays Harbor Policy that if we fail to make escapement 3 out of 5 years non treaty harvest is limited to an impact of 5% of the returning run. ( known as the Penalty Box )>>>>

Is this limited to non-treaty harvest and if so, what provisions are in place to guarantee that if the run comes in strong the tribes will not take the extra.
Let's just say that the run comes in and there is 20% impact that could be taken. Does the tribe get the entire 15% with no penalty while we are restricted to 5%. Or do they get 50% of the impact regardless. From what I have seen about tribal harvest, they can take a huge number of fish given the right conditions. So if a big run comes in and they have a scheduled fishery for so many days, which is supposed to equal a 50%, what is to stop them from taking most or all of the extra fish before they tally their numbers.

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#1059308 - 03/15/22 02:19 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Krijack]
bobrr
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Krijack
I know nothing about this process, but I am trying to understand what the impact of this statement is >>>>>> We will be limited by a provision in the Grays Harbor Policy that if we fail to make escapement 3 out of 5 years non treaty harvest is limited to an impact of 5% of the returning run. ( known as the Penalty Box )>>>>

Is this limited to non-treaty harvest and if so, what provisions are in place to guarantee that if the run comes in strong the tribes will not take the extra.
Let's just say that the run comes in and there is 20% impact that could be taken. Does the tribe get the entire 15% with no penalty while we are restricted to 5%. Or do they get 50% of the impact regardless. From what I have seen about tribal harvest, they can take a huge number of fish given the right conditions. So if a big run comes in and they have a scheduled fishery for so many days, which is supposed to equal a 50%, what is to stop them from taking most or all of the extra fish before they tally their numbers.


Great questions, I'd like to know this also.

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#1059310 - 03/15/22 03:40 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Krijack]
DrifterWA Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 04/25/00
Posts: 4978
Loc: East of Aberdeen, West of Mont...
Originally Posted By: Krijack
I know nothing about this process, but I am trying to understand what the impact of this statement is >>>>>> We will be limited by a provision in the Grays Harbor Policy that if we fail to make escapement 3 out of 5 years non treaty harvest is limited to an impact of 5% of the returning run. ( known as the Penalty Box )>>>>

From what I have seen about tribal harvest, they can take a huge number of fish given the right conditions. So if a big run comes in and they have a scheduled fishery for so many days, which is supposed to equal a 50%, what is to stop them from taking most or all of the extra fish before they tally their numbers.


Bingo...I have a "fair understanding of the process" but I also question the "slow reporting process by the QIN". There are times when it might be as much as 2 - 3 weeks before the QIN numbers get to WDFW, then finally posted to the WDFW web site.

Accountability should be a higher requirement than is required on the commercial side. I'd like to see, during the reporting process, hatchery and wild numbers. Is that important, it sure is on the "sport side". Try not marking H/W on your punch card see what happens....if Enforcement asks, maybe shame on you or if you send your card in, not marked you might get a "follow-up" from WDFW punch card tally persons.

John's River, 28th Street, Cosie, South Monty, Fuller and maybe Porter, need to be monitored. WDFW wants $2.6 million for paying additional persons to do this knid of work........how about during the peak movement of fish, have WDFW Region 6 monitor, 1 day a week???? Regular job 4 days, in field work 1 day....nothing better than "be and see", what's what.......save taxpayers $$$$$$$
_________________________
"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"

"I thought growing older, would take longer"

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#1059311 - 03/15/22 03:55 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: DrifterWA]
bobrr
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: DrifterWA
Originally Posted By: Krijack
I know nothing about this process, but I am trying to understand what the impact of this statement is >>>>>> We will be limited by a provision in the Grays Harbor Policy that if we fail to make escapement 3 out of 5 years non treaty harvest is limited to an impact of 5% of the returning run. ( known as the Penalty Box )>>>>

From what I have seen about tribal harvest, they can take a huge number of fish given the right conditions. So if a big run comes in and they have a scheduled fishery for so many days, which is supposed to equal a 50%, what is to stop them from taking most or all of the extra fish before they tally their numbers.


Bingo...I have a "fair understanding of the process" but I also question the "slow reporting process by the QIN". There are times when it might be as much as 2 - 3 weeks before the QIN numbers get to WDFW, then finally posted to the WDFW web site.

Accountability should be a higher requirement than is required on the commercial side. I'd like to see, during the reporting process, hatchery and wild numbers. Is that important, it sure is on the "sport side". Try not marking H/W on your punch card see what happens....if Enforcement asks, maybe shame on you or if you send your card in, not marked you might get a "follow-up" from WDFW punch card tally persons.

John's River, 28th Street, Cosie, South Monty, Fuller and maybe Porter, need to be monitored. WDFW wants $2.6 million for paying additional persons to do this knid of work........how about during the peak movement of fish, have WDFW Region 6 monitor, 1 day a week???? Regular job 4 days, in field work 1 day....nothing better than "be and see", what's what.......save taxpayers $$$$$$$


Saving taxpayers money is not SOP for our state, not utilizing

existing resources rather then spending an inflated amount of money

on new personnel is. Have to have an excuse for more taxes.

On another note, does anyone know when the state plans on fixing

the flood damage to the Monte launch? It looks really bad, SOP for

WA. state would disrupt the jack or fall season with construction.

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#1059313 - 03/15/22 06:00 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
DrifterWA Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 04/25/00
Posts: 4978
Loc: East of Aberdeen, West of Mont...
03/15/2022

Montesano Boat Launch "might be a no go". I know that people would be pissed if that happened.

Because of where I live, I go for "lookie lou" drives just about every day. I watched as the Chehalis got higher and higher, then went over the East side of the parking lot, more rain, next day the trees on the East side of the parking lot.....slid into the river, some went on a scenic down river. Next day river cut in behind the trees that had slide into the river. Where the river went around the corner, just above launch, more trees went and corner started getting chewed away.

Water was way over the parking lot, handcapped area had trees from "up river" all around it......the large boulders that were along the river bank, from above the shitter were long gone or moved.

I'm not an engineer but with the "major cut thru 150-200 yards up river, unless the whole bank, below the mill, is done correctly........mother nature is going to add the WDFW South Montesano launch to the "it was here, now its gone".....
_________________________
"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"

"I thought growing older, would take longer"

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#1059314 - 03/16/22 05:07 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: DrifterWA]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4399
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope

This was sent to me and I thought it was a relevant point of view.


BEING FRANK: MARINE MAMMAL PREDATION ON SALMON IS OUT OF CONTROL
Mar 10, 2022 | Being Frank, Lead Story

Being Frank: Marine Mammal Predation on Salmon is Out of Control
Being Frank is a column written by Chairman Ed Johnstone of the Northwest Indian Fisheries Commission. As a statement from the NWIFC chairman, the column represents the natural resources management concerns of the treaty Indian tribes in western Washington.

Our tribal fishermen are being out-fished by marine mammals.

When I was growing up in the 1950s and ’60s, it was rare to see a sea lion at the mouth of the Quinault or Hoh rivers. But now in Grays Harbor, you can’t even walk down on the docks because sea lions are everywhere.

I remember standing with Billy Frank Jr. at Frank’s Landing in 2010 when we saw about 13 sea lions lying on the sand bar. “These sea lions have never been here like this before,” Billy said. “This is not their home ground.” They’ve migrated here to eat our salmon and steelhead.

Harbor seals also have been traveling way up the Nisqually and Puyallup rivers to feed. Our fishermen are sitting on the banks while the pinnipeds are fishing.

The explosive growth of marine mammal populations has created an imbalance in the natural world, and we need to act now to get it under control.

This is happening against a backdrop of habitat loss that will take years to recover. While our recovery plans work to restore habitat, the most immediate thing we can do to protect salmon is reduce the impact of predation and account for the loss of the resource.

When tribes in western Washington signed treaties with the U.S. government, we reserved the right to continue hunting and fishing as we always have. Salmon are a treaty-protected resource, and that means we have a treaty right to manage the populations of marine mammals that threaten the health of the ecosystem.

Seals and sea lions take six times more salmon in the Puget Sound and Olympic coast than tribal and nontribal fisheries combined. Studies found that they eat about 1.4 million pounds annually of threatened chinook in Puget Sound alone.

Not only are seals and sea lions out-fishing us, but they also are intercepting the hatchery chinook we’ve produced to benefit southern resident orcas.

Between 1975 and 2015, harbor seal populations in the Salish Sea grew from about 8,500 to nearly 78,000. On the outer Washington coast, the number grew from fewer than 7,000 in 1980 to more than 20,000, according to aerial studies by the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife.

While harbor seals may have reached their carrying capacity, the number of California sea lions along the west coast of the United States has risen as high as 300,000. The combined impact on our fisheries is out of control.

These pinnipeds have been protected under the 1972 Marine Mammal Protection Act (MMPA), which was meant to protect fur seals, dolphins and whales in response to significant population declines caused by human activities.

No marine mammal species has gone extinct in U.S. waters since the MMPA was enacted. But sea lions and harbor seals were never in danger of extinction, and because of MMPA protections, they have become invasive species.

The MMPA has an important role to play, but it didn’t address carrying capacity or maximum sustainable yield, so now we have too many pinnipeds and not enough prey. The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration’s National Marine Fisheries Service has a responsibility to work with us to restore the balance in our ecosystem.

A new marine mammal strategy is needed to control predation in rivers throughout western Washington to protect out-migrating smolts and returning adult salmon and steelhead.

The state Legislature already has directed the Washington Academy of Science to learn more about the marine mammal problem, identify knowledge gaps and evaluate the effectiveness of potential management solutions.

Some of the short-term methods that have been tried with limited success include hazing with projectiles or boats, targeted acoustic startle technology, mechanical barriers and relocation. To solve the problem in the long term, we have to evaluate how many seals and sea lions the habitat can support and control their populations.

The tribes and others have invested billions of dollars and countless hours to try to recover salmon populations. We have reduced our fisheries by 80 to 90 percent over the past 40 years. Our federal trustee is obligated to support our efforts to manage marine mammals and fix the imbalance caused by the MMPA.

We have much work to do.

Sea lions haul out at the Westport Harbor Marina. Photo: Kaynor Community Education, via Wikimedia Commons.



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_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#1059315 - 03/17/22 10:48 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
thaxor Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 08/07/06
Posts: 422
Loc: Olympia, WA
make pinniped hunting great again

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#1059316 - 03/17/22 11:21 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7440
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
A part I seem to have missed in this pinniped discussion is that the Tribes used to hunt them. The Makah, despite the MMPA, went after whales. It almost looks like the Tribes want somebody else to do their "dirty work" of culling. Since Boldt II held that the Treaty Right meant dead fish in the boat it would seem that the State and Feds have responsibility (see Culvert Decision) to fix this. Let loose the lawyers.

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#1059318 - 03/17/22 12:24 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Carcassman]
bobrr
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Carcassman
A part I seem to have missed in this pinniped discussion is that the Tribes used to hunt them. The Makah, despite the MMPA, went after whales. It almost looks like the Tribes want somebody else to do their "dirty work" of culling. Since Boldt II held that the Treaty Right meant dead fish in the boat it would seem that the State and Feds have responsibility (see Culvert Decision) to fix this. Let loose the lawyers.


The "dirty work" of culling should be ALL stakeholders responsibility.

I find it "funny " that a former wdfw employee should say "let loose

the lawyers" when their former bosses lack the cajones to sue the

tribes over relevant issues.


As far as the Makah they have a treaty to go after whales which is

paramount. Or don't you believe that we should honor treaties we

sign?

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#1059319 - 03/17/22 04:08 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: ]
dwatkins Offline
I'm Idaho!

Registered: 08/15/14
Posts: 3456
Originally Posted By: bobrr
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
A part I seem to have missed in this pinniped discussion is that the Tribes used to hunt them. The Makah, despite the MMPA, went after whales. It almost looks like the Tribes want somebody else to do their "dirty work" of culling. Since Boldt II held that the Treaty Right meant dead fish in the boat it would seem that the State and Feds have responsibility (see Culvert Decision) to fix this. Let loose the lawyers.


The "dirty work" of culling should be ALL stakeholders responsibility.

I find it "funny " that a former wdfw employee should say "let loose

the lawyers" when their former bosses lack the cajones to sue the

tribes over relevant issues.


As far as the Makah they have a treaty to go after whales which is

paramount. Or don't you believe that we should honor treaties we

sign?


Why do you type the way you do?

It’s not middle school where you have to double

space to get 3-5 pages. Stop it bobber it’s hard to read.
_________________________
Mods = hall monitors

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#1059320 - 03/17/22 04:37 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
bobrr
Unregistered


Oh, I love the Ignore feature!!! It's so much nicer then wasting good insults on them.

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#1059321 - 03/17/22 08:36 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7440
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
For some reason Bob you seem to think that if someone worked at WDFW that they agree point for point on all they do. When I was in management we regularly took the Tribes to Court. And won. Leadership rolled over. There a number of folks on the Board who know did march in lockstep with leadership and I resent being painted as such.

Where do you get the idea that I don't support the Makah whaling? My point was that the Treaties trump MMPA.

While culling could be done by all, the Tribes have Treaty Law to support them more than the rest of us have laws to support the culling.

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#1059322 - 03/17/22 11:39 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
Krijack Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 1515
Loc: Tacoma
While it is somewhat covered in secrecy, the implications I got regarding the Makah's and their right to whaling is that it all gets down to money and power. The Tribe has the right to whale and can do it any time the want. The problem is that key players (non tribal) appear to have leaned on the tribe and told them that if they do it on their own, they can forget about a having friends at the BIA or when it comes time for Congress to hand out funds. I was on the reservation a few years back for a what is known as Makah Days. Senator Maria Cantwell came riding by in a car during their parade. The tribe has around 2500 members, so I can guarantee she did not make the trip to garner votes. In fact, I was with a tribal member and had been telling him that the tribes own the State. I don't think he believed me until she drove by. He was laughing about it because I think I was about the only person around who even recognized her. The tribes have some powerful friends and want to keep them. In addition, with the Casino's bringing in Millions, they want to stay under the radar as much as possible. This is, I believe, the reason why we have also not seen wide scale culling by any of the tribes.

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#1059323 - 03/18/22 01:02 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7440
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Pretty much agree with those observations.

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#1059324 - 03/18/22 07:51 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
cohoangler Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 12/29/99
Posts: 1604
Loc: Vancouver, Washington
A few observations.

It’s an oversimplification to say the Treaties trump the MMPA (or the ESA). The Federal agencies responsible for implementing the MMPA/ESA also need to uphold the Treaties. So they need to do both. It may be difficult, but it can be done.

There may be a situation where the MMPA/ESA and the Treaties are in conflict, and become completely intractable. In that case, it’s possible a judge would be asked to decide which takes precedence. But all sides of this debate would go to great lengths to avoid that question. Nobody wants to risk getting an answer they don’t like. So it would likely get settled before getting to court. The last issue that went to the SCOTUS (the Culvert Case) regarding Treaty rights gave the Tribes a real scare so it’s likely they will be very cautious before going down that road again.

(Recall the Culvert decision was 4-4 split, with Justice Kennedy recusing himself. So the case was never really decided, except that the 9th Circuit Court decision stands, but is only applicable in Puget Sound. If the SCOTUS had made a decision (e.g., 5-4), the result would have applied nationwide. For better or for worse.)

Also, yes the Makah Tribe’s treaty includes the right to take whales. But ‘whaling’ and ‘sealing’ might be considered different activities. Whaling is an obvious treaty right while sealing may or may not be considered consistent with whaling (as the Tribes would have understood it). So taking seals is not as clear as the right to take whales.

My sense is that if the Makah Tribe wanted to kill a bunch of seals under their Treaty, they probably can. They might not get dragged into a legal fight, but the public relations pushback would be severe, just like it was when they killed a grey whale 20 years ago. They’re probably not anxious for that to happen again, particularly since seals are probably not high on their list of favorite foods.


Edited by cohoangler (03/18/22 10:45 AM)

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#1059325 - 03/18/22 07:58 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Carcassman]
bobrr
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Carcassman
For some reason Bob you seem to think that if someone worked at WDFW that they agree point for point on all they do. When I was in management we regularly took the Tribes to Court. And won. Leadership rolled over. There a number of folks on the Board who know did march in lockstep with leadership and I resent being painted as such.

Where do you get the idea that I don't support the Makah whaling? My point was that the Treaties trump MMPA.

While culling could be done by all, the Tribes have Treaty Law to support them more than the rest of us have laws to support the culling.


I don't really care if you resent ANYTHING I have to say about your posts, this is an internet forum where all players should expect to have their feelings hurt over divisive topics sometimes.

As far as resenting you stating that all rec fishermen are in favor of culling ALL predators that compete for "their fish" I laugh at your broad brush accusations. You aren't worth getting that upset over. You are just a cog in a wheel in a flawed agency.

And you are the one that stated, "It almost looks like the tribes want someone else to do their "dirty work" of culling." If anyone should be offended by statements like this it's the tribes.

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#1059326 - 03/18/22 08:07 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: cohoangler]
bobrr
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: cohoangler






My sense is that if the Makah Tribe wanted to kill a bunch of seals under their Treaty, they probably can. They might not get dragged into a legal fight, but the public relations pushback would be severe, just like it was when they killed a humpback 20 years ago. They’re probably not anxious for that to happen again, particularly since seals are probably not high on their list of favorite foods.


The Makah killed a grey whale, not a humpback. As a wildlife photographer I was expected by animal rights groups I had worked with to oppose the taking of whales by the Makah but treaty rights were paramount in my point of view. They (and other tribes) have basically quietly ignored the MMPA when dealing with problem seals and sea lions. Of course this is downplayed as the Feds are a lot less willing to deal with the problem then the tribes.

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#1059327 - 03/18/22 08:14 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
fish4brains Offline
Dah Rivah Stinkah Pink Mastah

Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 6193
Loc: zipper
A hothead trying to school level headed people on "internet forums where players should expect to have their feelings hurt over divisive topics" is laughable. bobrr joined this particular "internet forum" about 15 years too late. We would rather hear from Melanie. She makes more sense when she posts, and always made more sense in the NOF meetings.
_________________________
...
Propping up an obsolete fishing industry at the expense of sound fisheries management is irresponsible. -Sg



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#1059328 - 03/18/22 08:40 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
bobrr
Unregistered


Another a-hole refugee from the darkside I have on ignore. They have nowhere to go now so just post when they want to trash someone they know already has their number and that's why they are on ignore. Folks don't like what I have to say? Use the ignore feature.

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