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#976511 - 04/25/17 10:27 AM Elwha Hatcheries -Feds win in 9th Circuit decision
JustBecause Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 07/18/08
Posts: 237
Park Service, NMFS, and other Fed agencies successfully defend their hatchery authorization decision against WFC et. al. appeal.

http://www.peninsuladailynews.com/news/c...er-in-decision/

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#976515 - 04/25/17 12:31 PM Re: Elwha Hatcheries -Feds win in 9th Circuit decision [Re: JustBecause]
wsu Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 06/23/04
Posts: 422
I've thought since day one that WFC would have a whole lot harder time winning lawsuits if the states and feds would get their act together and actually do the required assessments and permits.

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#976517 - 04/25/17 01:25 PM Re: Elwha Hatcheries -Feds win in 9th Circuit decision [Re: JustBecause]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12766
Sorry... but to quote STRIKEZONE, that decision sux balz.

Here's a PRIME opportunity for wild salmon recovery to occur w/o being f'd up by the "helping hand" of mankind.

Just have the discipline to leave them alone.... that means no hatcheries and no harvest.... until they gain a strong foothold (finhold?) toward becoming a self sustaining population.

Is that really too much to ask?
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#976518 - 04/25/17 01:59 PM Re: Elwha Hatcheries -Feds win in 9th Circuit decision [Re: JustBecause]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
Politics. People who make their living by overharvesting artificially large populations of fish are heavily interested (and invested) in hatchery production. Without hatcheries, commercial fisheries in Alaska and BC would look a lot different.... Then, of course, we have the local tribes, whose own commercial fisheries (excuse me, that's cultural traditions) would be jeopardized without hatcheries.

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#976519 - 04/25/17 02:31 PM Re: Elwha Hatcheries -Feds win in 9th Circuit decision [Re: JustBecause]
STRIKE ZONE Offline
GOOD LUCK

Registered: 08/09/00
Posts: 12107
Loc: Hobart,Wa U.S.A
Gotta agree with "Doc" leave'em alone they will come back.Good luck,

SZ

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#976523 - 04/25/17 02:55 PM Re: Elwha Hatcheries -Feds win in 9th Circuit decision [Re: JustBecause]
wsu Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 06/23/04
Posts: 422
I agree that fish shouldn't be planted. Are these broodstock programs or just run of the mill hatchery fish?

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#976531 - 04/25/17 05:48 PM Re: Elwha Hatcheries -Feds win in 9th Circuit decision [Re: JustBecause]
_WW_ Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/30/13
Posts: 233
Loc: Skagit
Quote “Approximately 95 percent of recent threatened chinook salmon returns are hatchery origin and the program has operated since 1976.” Unquote

Oh the irony of that statement...
_________________________
Catch & Release Is Not A Crime

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#976532 - 04/25/17 05:51 PM Re: Elwha Hatcheries -Feds win in 9th Circuit decision [Re: wsu]
Lucky Louie Offline
Carcass

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 2286
Integrated broodstock and it appears that a high percentage will not be fin clipped.
_________________________
The world will not be destroyed by those that are evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything.- Albert Einstein

No you can’t have my rights---I’m still using them





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#976533 - 04/25/17 06:37 PM Re: Elwha Hatcheries -Feds win in 9th Circuit decision [Re: JustBecause]
mreyns_tgl Offline
Random VaJJ Stalker

Registered: 11/06/03
Posts: 3453
Loc: Port Angeles
Ok deal. Let's keep it closed and stop planting it. Also lets go to all of your favorite local rivers and stop planting them and close them up. Fair deal right?

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#976536 - 04/25/17 07:11 PM Re: Elwha Hatcheries -Feds win in 9th Circuit decision [Re: mreyns_tgl]
Keta Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 03/05/00
Posts: 1092
Originally Posted By: mreyns_tgl
Ok deal. Let's keep it closed and stop planting it. Also lets go to all of your favorite local rivers and stop planting them and close them up. Fair deal right?


What's the logic behind that idea? Should we just make size 10 shoes for everyone to wear?

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#976538 - 04/25/17 07:40 PM Re: Elwha Hatcheries -Feds win in 9th Circuit decision [Re: JustBecause]
mreyns_tgl Offline
Random VaJJ Stalker

Registered: 11/06/03
Posts: 3453
Loc: Port Angeles
The logic behind that is simple, most rivers that are open for salmon retention are hatchery fish dominated, with depleted wild stocks. Therefor by everyone else's logic we should shut down all fishing and remove all hatchery fish. Let every river rebound on it's own.

I guess personally I'm just tired of hearing the rah rah rah get rid of the hatchery fish on the Elwha [Bleeeeep!], when three or four posts down on the main page a bunch of harvested hatchery fish are being celebrated.

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#976542 - 04/26/17 08:05 AM Re: Elwha Hatcheries -Feds win in 9th Circuit decision [Re: JustBecause]
Lucky Louie Offline
Carcass

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 2286
With the gene bank experiment in its infancy, aren’t we jumping the gun by suggesting adding more rivers without proven results?
_________________________
The world will not be destroyed by those that are evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything.- Albert Einstein

No you can’t have my rights---I’m still using them





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#976543 - 04/26/17 08:20 AM Re: Elwha Hatcheries -Feds win in 9th Circuit decision [Re: JustBecause]
Salmo g. Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13521
The legislation authorizing removal of the Elwha dams happened 25 years ago. The agreements among diverse - or should I say, divided - interest groups are even older. The use of hatchery fish to jump start wild fish recovery and to supplement fish populations for harvest was fundamental to making those agreements. The prevailing opinions about mixing hatchery and natural fish production were different 30 years ago than they are today. I think backpeddling on decades-old agreements is likely to jeopardize future complex agreements.

I'm not disputing the fact that the Elwha represents the near ideal watershed for natural fish population recovery experimentation, but I won't delude myself by denying that it would be an experiment.

Sg

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#976544 - 04/26/17 08:24 AM Re: Elwha Hatcheries -Feds win in 9th Circuit decision [Re: JustBecause]
Beezer Offline
Spawner

Registered: 06/09/99
Posts: 855
Loc: Monroe WA
With all due respect Mark, most rivers heavily planted with hatchery fish, at least in my neck of the woods, have extreme fresh water issues with dams or population encroachment and with little hope in sight. The Elwha had its major freshwater habitat obstacles removed. It would be interesting to see if the fish can rebound without hatcheries or is the marine environment too trashed to allow that to happen.

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#976546 - 04/26/17 09:32 AM Re: Elwha Hatcheries -Feds win in 9th Circuit decision [Re: JustBecause]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12766
Seems to me the hatchery strategy is the experiment... a century-long experiment.... that has proven to be an epic failure for wild fish conservation.

Time for the experiment to end and just let nature takes its course as it has for centuries before white colonization of the PNW.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#976547 - 04/26/17 11:46 AM Re: Elwha Hatcheries -Feds win in 9th Circuit decision [Re: JustBecause]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Not using hatchery supplementation might have a chance if all the marine mixed stock fisheries would be closed so that the Elwha and other streams with dams removed could recover. But, we will keep killing those fish in the ocean. Take away the hatchery fish and more of the wilds will be taken in the ocean. It's simple math.

When I was involved in the Elwha recovery I tried to suggest that a myriad of methods be tried. Maybe the traditional methods with Chinook as we already had an ongoing program. Leave steelhead, sockeye, and pinks alone and see what natural recovery does. Flood the system with fry/eggs taken from all sorts of neighboring socks of coho (3 years) and chum (4 years) to put in a tone of genes and the let God sort them out. I got moved to another position too after.

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#976550 - 04/26/17 12:39 PM Re: Elwha Hatcheries -Feds win in 9th Circuit decision [Re: JustBecause]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
Here's a list of just a few great things hatcheries have done for salmon recovery (the initial stated purpose for hatcheries):

* Polluted the wild gene pool, reducing productivity of the remaining native stocks
* Re-established fisheries in areas that SHOULD be closed, due to endangered wild stocks, thereby speeding the demise of those stocks
* Created a massive number of fish, intended for harvest, that mix in with wild fish from stocks that cannot sustain further harvest in the ocean, thereby putting endangered stocks further at risk from open ocean fisheries
* Tribes refuse to recognize any difference between wild and hatchery fish, so when they fish, they catch and kill everything they can, which in some cases has an unsustainable impact on wild fish (in watersheds where we KNOW those wild fish were bound to spawn)
* Created a bunch of fish that "must die," lest they represent a waste of public money. Unfortunately, the most effective means of getting them dead does nothing to prevent making the wild fish in the mix just as dead.

Basically, we're not getting rid of hatcheries, no matter how much better that might be for wild fish. We don't need wild salmon to have salmon fisheries. That's why the powers that be (those making court decisions like this one) don't care about wild fish recovery. All they are concerned with is keeping commercial (and, to a far lesser extent, sport) fishing going. To do that with wild fish would require no small measure of restraint in setting fishing seasons, probably for a lot of years. That represents too many years of lost profit and lost jobs to ever be a possibility in the current political environment.

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#976553 - 04/26/17 01:11 PM Re: Elwha Hatcheries -Feds win in 9th Circuit decision [Re: JustBecause]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
To add to FleaFlickr2's comment, wild fish, even if restored to "historic" levels could not meet the demand and be sustainable at those levels. We have stark choices IF wild fish are important:

1. Control human population so that salmonid ecosystems are preserved. This includes the oceans.

2. Limit all harvests (directed, incidental, whatever) to what the sustainable population can support. This includes not only the "traditional" salmon fisheries but food-web fisheries, trawling (impacts in AK). Note just how many wild trout are allowed to be killed in the successful wild trout fisheries.

As one of the Lummi managers commented in the papers about 30 years ago, when asked about the status of wild coho in the Nooksack "Wild fish are nice, but the people gotta eat".

Pogo was right, but we won't face that one.

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#976565 - 04/26/17 06:40 PM Re: Elwha Hatcheries -Feds win in 9th Circuit decision [Re: JustBecause]
milt roe Offline
Spawner

Registered: 01/22/06
Posts: 925
Loc: tacoma
Same outcome after the eruption of Mt St Helens. Perfect situation to understand how wild fish populations recover into former habitats. Scientists pleaded to set aside at least a portion of the area for research and wild fish recovery without hatchery intervention. Policy makers vetoed that idea and broadcast hatchery fish into every possible stream to support restoration of harvest opportunity, even above natural barriers where species never occurred previously. Non native stocks persist above those barriers today, to the detriment of native species.

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#976571 - 04/26/17 07:27 PM Re: Elwha Hatcheries -Feds win in 9th Circuit decision [Re: JustBecause]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Couple of things to keep in mind about St Helens and the WDF hatchery there. State Law is if you don't use your water right for its defined use for 5 years, you lose it. Must us it all. The lease for the land had a similar clause; no use you lose.

It would have been better, in my opinion, to have gone with totally natural recovery but that would likely mean the permanent loss of the hatchery if one ever wanted re-open.

Second aspect of recovery is that all native species upstream of a natural barrier were permanently lost, never to be recovered.

It was a more complex decision than just plant the **ck out of the system.

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