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#976630 - 04/28/17 11:21 AM Re: trump's tax cut [Re: larryb]
erikj Offline
Spawner

Registered: 01/06/07
Posts: 660
Please edit the trillions in liability from your post. I'm not a fan of facts getting in the way of perceptive.

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#976631 - 04/28/17 11:30 AM Re: trump's tax cut [Re: larryb]
NickD90 Offline
Shooting Instructor for hire

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 7260
Loc: Snohomish, WA
BM - it's not static and you are basing your claim off the assumption that it is. It changes about every 8 years. It's driven by politics, not math (see my above many points). Also don't confuse the competition vs. forced taxation (captured market) debate with the actual money on hand. How it was earned is irrelevant to what the books say. I.e. the books don't care how you got the money, just that the money is there and more of it is coming (government or business - doesn't matter). Finance and math are amoral. Stats don't lie, statisticians do.

The core foundation of our government is that American people are the customers and not the other way around. "We the people" make up the government and it serves at our pleasure. We have the documentation to prove it.

Conversely, see Venezuela as an example of a system where the people are "employees" of the state. We are paying (taxes) for services rendered (benefits returned aka product). If we don't like it, we can elect someone who is more inline with our beliefs and visions. That's your competition in government right there. Elections. IT IS a business and WE ARE the customers.

Some Americans happen to work for government, but that is a side bar topic.

It's who's in office that drives the policies that sets your effective tax rate.

In the global business world, if you were Microsoft, would you rather pay 20% in Ireland or 35% in the USA? What if the USA offered you 15%? Would you take it?

Of course you would.

Except Steelheadman, who would gladly pay his fair share @ 35% because that's the right thing to do. rolleyes



Edited by NickD90 (04/28/17 11:35 AM)
_________________________
“If the military were fighting for our freedom, they would be storming Capitol Hill”. – FleaFlickr02

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#976634 - 04/28/17 11:35 AM Re: trump's tax cut [Re: NickD90]
The Trumpster Offline
Impeached X2

Registered: 09/02/15
Posts: 291
Loc: In exile at Mar-a-Lago
Originally Posted By: NickD90
I'm no economist and just a Joe-Blow taxpayer.


I'm not even either of those things, so it sounds like you are more qualified than I am.
_________________________
Trump 2020 - Keep America great!

"When you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything, grab 'em by the pussy. You can do anything." –Donald Trump

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#976636 - 04/28/17 11:38 AM Re: trump's tax cut [Re: The Trumpster]
NickD90 Offline
Shooting Instructor for hire

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 7260
Loc: Snohomish, WA
Originally Posted By: The Trumpster
Originally Posted By: NickD90
I'm no economist and just a Joe-Blow taxpayer.


I'm not even either of those things, so it sounds like you are more qualified than I am.


Hire me? One million dollars. About 10x what I'm worth on the open market, but it's a gubment gig so who cares imiright? moose
_________________________
“If the military were fighting for our freedom, they would be storming Capitol Hill”. – FleaFlickr02

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#976637 - 04/28/17 11:40 AM Re: trump's tax cut [Re: Bent Metal]
erikj Offline
Spawner

Registered: 01/06/07
Posts: 660
Best of luck.
We need your tax dollars. See above.

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#976640 - 04/28/17 12:09 PM Re: trump's tax cut [Re: larryb]
NickD90 Offline
Shooting Instructor for hire

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 7260
Loc: Snohomish, WA
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_rates

Of course they don't. They book it offshore in Ireland. grin

The flat rate is near 35% but with creative tax accounting, but it is true that most medium to large corporations do not pay the full 35%. Most that can't or don't offshore pay around 25-27% at the end of the day - give or take. It's in their best interest NOT to pay the full 35%. Creative tax accounting 101.

Good healthy chat guys...as always...gotta run.
_________________________
“If the military were fighting for our freedom, they would be storming Capitol Hill”. – FleaFlickr02

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#976642 - 04/28/17 12:57 PM Re: trump's tax cut [Re: NickD90]
Dan S. Offline
It all boils down to this - I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone who disputes this is clearly a dumbfuck.

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 17149
Loc: SE Olympia, WA
Originally Posted By: NickD90
C'mon guys - you two are much too smart for that and I mean that.

To pretend it isn't a business is ludicrous. Please explain how it is not a business and show you work


Shut the fvck up. You're just making yourself look stupid.

Governments do things businesses would never dream of and is way more complicated than business.

Did IBM launch a nuclear attack against Microsoft? Does General Motors dictate fiscal policy and set interest rates? Does Amazon offer property to homestead? Does Sportco set fishing seasons? Does Apple have Apple State University? Does anyone serve in the General Electric Navy? Has anyone appeared before the Supreme Court of McDonald's?

It's like you're being stupid intentionally.
_________________________
She was standin' alone over by the juke box, like she'd something to sell.
I said "baby, what's the goin' price?" She told me to go to hell.

Bon Scott - Shot Down in Flames

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#976647 - 04/28/17 02:04 PM Re: trump's tax cut [Re: larryb]
Dan S. Offline
It all boils down to this - I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone who disputes this is clearly a dumbfuck.

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 17149
Loc: SE Olympia, WA
I'm waiting to hear about Boeing's quantitative easing plan.

Do you guys think Airbus can defeat ISIS, and how effective will their sanctions against North Korea be?
_________________________
She was standin' alone over by the juke box, like she'd something to sell.
I said "baby, what's the goin' price?" She told me to go to hell.

Bon Scott - Shot Down in Flames

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#976651 - 04/28/17 02:40 PM Re: trump's tax cut [Re: Dan S.]
NickD90 Offline
Shooting Instructor for hire

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 7260
Loc: Snohomish, WA
Originally Posted By: Dan S.
Originally Posted By: NickD90
C'mon guys - you two are much too smart for that and I mean that.

To pretend it isn't a business is ludicrous. Please explain how it is not a business and show you work


Shut the fvck up. You're just making yourself look stupid.

Governments do things businesses would never dream of and is way more complicated than business.

Did IBM launch a nuclear attack against Microsoft? Does General Motors dictate fiscal policy and set interest rates? Does Amazon offer property to homestead? Does Sportco set fishing seasons? Does Apple have Apple State University? Does anyone serve in the General Electric Navy? Has anyone appeared before the Supreme Court of McDonald's?

It's like you're being stupid intentionally.



Dan - all of those items are services (or products) bought by our tax dollars. Yes, even nuking other countries is considered a service. Defense, welfare, BLM, education....all of it is a product. Tax money in, services out. I already talked about printing money and the Fed is it's own standalone entity (but you already knew that). Nothing that you said proves that the government does not or should not operate like a business. But thanks for the Strawmen arguments
_________________________
“If the military were fighting for our freedom, they would be storming Capitol Hill”. – FleaFlickr02

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#976652 - 04/28/17 02:59 PM Re: trump's tax cut [Re: larryb]
Dan S. Offline
It all boils down to this - I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone who disputes this is clearly a dumbfuck.

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 17149
Loc: SE Olympia, WA
You already talked out your ass is what you did, junior.

No fuckin business in the world pays for non productive sh!t like welfare, or does things fpr the common good or public safety, dumbfuck, so stop pretending they do. Only regulations passed by the government keep them from doing exactly the opposite. Put the fuckin paste down and stop eating it.
_________________________
She was standin' alone over by the juke box, like she'd something to sell.
I said "baby, what's the goin' price?" She told me to go to hell.

Bon Scott - Shot Down in Flames

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#976654 - 04/28/17 03:16 PM Re: trump's tax cut [Re: Dan S.]
Piper
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Dan S.
You already talked out your ass is what you did, junior.

No fuckin business in the world pays for non productive sh!t like welfare, or does things fpr the common good or public safety, dumbfuck, so stop pretending they do.


I would argue that in the engineering and construction world "BIM" is about as non-productive as it gets and only benefits the downstream users

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#976663 - 04/28/17 04:43 PM Re: trump's tax cut [Re: Dan S.]
Sol Duc Offline
April Fool

Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 16138
Originally Posted By: Dan S.
Government isn't business. Pretending they're the same is fuckin stupid.

But whatever.

I'm about done giving a sh!t either way, as everyone seems more interested in being political cock gobblers than doing what helps the country.

Party first. Country second.

Great.

We're in a civil war.
_________________________
He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice.

- Albert Einstein.

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#976665 - 04/28/17 05:28 PM Re: trump's tax cut [Re: larryb]
Steelheadman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/15/99
Posts: 4214
Loc: Poulsbo, WA,USA
Trump said he was going to rebuild America's infrastructure. I doubt it is going to be in the budget. Oh yeah and who is going to pay for the wall. Donald thought this job was going to be easier.
_________________________
I'd Rather Be Fishing for Summer Steelhead!

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#976680 - 04/28/17 06:05 PM Re: trump's tax cut [Re: larryb]
NickD90 Offline
Shooting Instructor for hire

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 7260
Loc: Snohomish, WA
laugh
_________________________
“If the military were fighting for our freedom, they would be storming Capitol Hill”. – FleaFlickr02

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#976704 - 04/29/17 10:14 AM Re: trump's tax cut [Re: larryb]
Dan S. Offline
It all boils down to this - I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone who disputes this is clearly a dumbfuck.

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 17149
Loc: SE Olympia, WA
smile
_________________________
She was standin' alone over by the juke box, like she'd something to sell.
I said "baby, what's the goin' price?" She told me to go to hell.

Bon Scott - Shot Down in Flames

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#976738 - 05/02/17 01:50 PM Re: trump's tax cut [Re: NickD90]
gooybob Offline
Spawner

Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 993
Loc: Tacoma
Originally Posted By: NickD90
Originally Posted By: larryb
what is the difference between trump's tax cut and the one bush did that put the economy into the crapper?


There's a lot actually. The economy was already in the crapper when Dubya took office (dot com bust). Bush's tax cuts were designed as short term financial relief for all tax brackets (it had an original expiration date that was extended). It was a true temporary cut instead of a systemic restructuring of the tax code. It mostly benefited the rich, as 2x more households filed as millionaires from 2001 to 2006. It was the largest single contributor to the deficit @ $1.8T from 2002 - 2009. It added $1.6T to our debt. It brought the AMT out of obscurity. It kicked the can down the road and Bush, being the big govt Neo-con that he was, added crap ton to the overall debt by way of bloated government (creation of DHS etc.) and an entirely unnecessary war.

The economy at the end of Bush's term was not bad because of his tax cuts, it was bad because of the housing market crash. Once the dot com bubble burst, most everyone left the stormy market for a calmer bay (housing). The Dems sealed the deal with making sure everyone got a house. Everyone in DC was complicit and an accessory to the crime.

Conversely, Trump was handed a relatively stable, but not a growing economy. Last year's tax receipts were at an all time high, but wages are going nowhere. Trump's plan is a lot more about the tax code for both personal and business and its permanent. Its meant to greatly simplify the overall code while spurring business investment.

I'm still processing the implications, but here's the basics:

Business Tax from 35% to 15% (it would be a miracle if he gets 15%)

From seven personal tax brackets down to 3. 10%, 25% and 35%

Doubling the standard deduction, but elimination of all deductions other than Mortgage Interest and Charity

10% income bracket couples would pay no tax on their first $24k

Elimination of the AMT and Death Tax

On the surface, I love all of it. It would give a break to the top earners (of course), but it totally restructures how the second and third brackets manage their taxes. I'd go from 29% down to 25%, so that's cool. It would put a LOT of CPA's and Tax Lawyers out of business. One or two page filing. Top earners would game the system and become instant employees of their own businesses overnight (that's both good and bad thing).

I'm most excited about the the 15% business tax. Trillions of Corporate tax dollars are being held offshore (MS, Apple, Google, Amazon to name a few). Ireland doesn't like this plan at all. We are the world's largest consumer of retail goods. If he can get 15%, we'll have the largest jobs and economy growth seen since the Industrial Revolution. Every company in the world would set up shop in the USA almost overnight. Alibaba v. Amazon? Foxconn in Ohio? MS Ireland closing up shop? Yes please. We would have more choice and our dollar would go much, much further.

My guess is he'll negotiate to 20 - 22.5% and call it a win (if he can even get that). Still, even 20% would spur a BIGLY amount of growth. We shall see I guess...

PS: Paul Ryan will fvck it up.

Right about Ryan. He was born a fvck up and a butt licker and a vampire. This tax plan is just a re-hash of trickle down economics. It NEVER works. It just widens the gap between the middle class and the top 3%. If you think for one minute that corporate America is going to pass the tax savings along to the consumer think again. Did the airlines pass the enormous fuel savings down the line to the consumer? No, they just paid the top management more and charged more fees. When the oil companies were having record profits did they pass the savings on to the consumer? Nope, but their top management reaped in huge bonuses and perks. Remember, Donald Chump has everything to gain from his tax plan personally as well as his suspect businesses. This "president" has lied and failed to come through on all of his bullsh!t promises and it will just continue. I would list all of his 100 day failures but it could overwhelm this website and cause it to crash.





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#976739 - 05/02/17 02:03 PM Re: trump's tax cut [Re: larryb]
BroodBuster Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 07/11/04
Posts: 3113
Loc: Bothell, Wa
And this years budget is different than last years how? Oh yea, we're buying more bombs.

America, PhuckYea!
_________________________
"Government does not solve problems; it subsidizes them." Ronald Reagan

"The trouble with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." Margaret Thatcher.

"How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don't think." Adolf Hitler

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#976747 - 05/02/17 07:34 PM Re: trump's tax cut [Re: larryb]
DrifterWA Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 04/25/00
Posts: 5074
Loc: East of Aberdeen, West of Mont...
Let's see.....build up the armed forces, once built then "flex are muscles"...get the country into another conflict.....I sure hope not!!!!!
_________________________
"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"

"I thought growing older, would take longer"

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#976756 - 05/03/17 10:45 AM Re: trump's tax cut [Re: larryb]
WDFW X 1 = 0 Offline
My Area code makes me cooler than you

Registered: 01/27/15
Posts: 4549
I hope he kicks North Korea in the nuts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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#976774 - 05/03/17 05:07 PM Re: trump's tax cut [Re: WDFW X 1 = 0]
NickD90 Offline
Shooting Instructor for hire

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 7260
Loc: Snohomish, WA
Originally Posted By: WDFW X 1 = 0
I hope he kicks North Korea in the nuts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I really don't want to see another war at ALL - but the little NK fat boy is going to need to be dealt with sooner rather than later - IMO. Not a good choice. We really need China to take him out and replace the regime peacefully.
_________________________
“If the military were fighting for our freedom, they would be storming Capitol Hill”. – FleaFlickr02

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