#976511 - 04/25/17 10:27 AM
Elwha Hatcheries -Feds win in 9th Circuit decision
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Juvenile at Sea
Registered: 07/18/08
Posts: 233
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Park Service, NMFS, and other Fed agencies successfully defend their hatchery authorization decision against WFC et. al. appeal. http://www.peninsuladailynews.com/news/c...er-in-decision/
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#976515 - 04/25/17 12:31 PM
Re: Elwha Hatcheries -Feds win in 9th Circuit decision
[Re: JustBecause]
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Returning Adult
Registered: 06/23/04
Posts: 419
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I've thought since day one that WFC would have a whole lot harder time winning lawsuits if the states and feds would get their act together and actually do the required assessments and permits.
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#976517 - 04/25/17 01:25 PM
Re: Elwha Hatcheries -Feds win in 9th Circuit decision
[Re: JustBecause]
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Ornamental Rice Bowl
Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12606
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Sorry... but to quote STRIKEZONE, that decision sux balz.
Here's a PRIME opportunity for wild salmon recovery to occur w/o being f'd up by the "helping hand" of mankind.
Just have the discipline to leave them alone.... that means no hatcheries and no harvest.... until they gain a strong foothold (finhold?) toward becoming a self sustaining population.
Is that really too much to ask?
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey) "If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman) The Keen Eye MDLong Live the Kings!
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#976523 - 04/25/17 02:55 PM
Re: Elwha Hatcheries -Feds win in 9th Circuit decision
[Re: JustBecause]
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Returning Adult
Registered: 06/23/04
Posts: 419
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I agree that fish shouldn't be planted. Are these broodstock programs or just run of the mill hatchery fish?
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#976531 - 04/25/17 05:48 PM
Re: Elwha Hatcheries -Feds win in 9th Circuit decision
[Re: JustBecause]
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Juvenile at Sea
Registered: 01/30/13
Posts: 233
Loc: Skagit
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Quote “Approximately 95 percent of recent threatened chinook salmon returns are hatchery origin and the program has operated since 1976.” Unquote
Oh the irony of that statement...
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Catch & Release Is Not A Crime
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#976532 - 04/25/17 05:51 PM
Re: Elwha Hatcheries -Feds win in 9th Circuit decision
[Re: wsu]
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Carcass
Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 2267
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Integrated broodstock and it appears that a high percentage will not be fin clipped.
_________________________
The world will not be destroyed by those that are evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything.- Albert Einstein
No you can’t have my rights---I’m still using them
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#976536 - 04/25/17 07:11 PM
Re: Elwha Hatcheries -Feds win in 9th Circuit decision
[Re: mreyns_tgl]
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Repeat Spawner
Registered: 03/05/00
Posts: 1083
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Ok deal. Let's keep it closed and stop planting it. Also lets go to all of your favorite local rivers and stop planting them and close them up. Fair deal right? What's the logic behind that idea? Should we just make size 10 shoes for everyone to wear?
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#976542 - 04/26/17 08:05 AM
Re: Elwha Hatcheries -Feds win in 9th Circuit decision
[Re: JustBecause]
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Carcass
Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 2267
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With the gene bank experiment in its infancy, aren’t we jumping the gun by suggesting adding more rivers without proven results?
_________________________
The world will not be destroyed by those that are evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything.- Albert Einstein
No you can’t have my rights---I’m still using them
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#976546 - 04/26/17 09:32 AM
Re: Elwha Hatcheries -Feds win in 9th Circuit decision
[Re: JustBecause]
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Ornamental Rice Bowl
Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12606
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Seems to me the hatchery strategy is the experiment... a century-long experiment.... that has proven to be an epic failure for wild fish conservation.
Time for the experiment to end and just let nature takes its course as it has for centuries before white colonization of the PNW.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey) "If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman) The Keen Eye MDLong Live the Kings!
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#976547 - 04/26/17 11:46 AM
Re: Elwha Hatcheries -Feds win in 9th Circuit decision
[Re: JustBecause]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7440
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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Not using hatchery supplementation might have a chance if all the marine mixed stock fisheries would be closed so that the Elwha and other streams with dams removed could recover. But, we will keep killing those fish in the ocean. Take away the hatchery fish and more of the wilds will be taken in the ocean. It's simple math.
When I was involved in the Elwha recovery I tried to suggest that a myriad of methods be tried. Maybe the traditional methods with Chinook as we already had an ongoing program. Leave steelhead, sockeye, and pinks alone and see what natural recovery does. Flood the system with fry/eggs taken from all sorts of neighboring socks of coho (3 years) and chum (4 years) to put in a tone of genes and the let God sort them out. I got moved to another position too after.
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#976550 - 04/26/17 12:39 PM
Re: Elwha Hatcheries -Feds win in 9th Circuit decision
[Re: JustBecause]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3310
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Here's a list of just a few great things hatcheries have done for salmon recovery (the initial stated purpose for hatcheries):
* Polluted the wild gene pool, reducing productivity of the remaining native stocks * Re-established fisheries in areas that SHOULD be closed, due to endangered wild stocks, thereby speeding the demise of those stocks * Created a massive number of fish, intended for harvest, that mix in with wild fish from stocks that cannot sustain further harvest in the ocean, thereby putting endangered stocks further at risk from open ocean fisheries * Tribes refuse to recognize any difference between wild and hatchery fish, so when they fish, they catch and kill everything they can, which in some cases has an unsustainable impact on wild fish (in watersheds where we KNOW those wild fish were bound to spawn) * Created a bunch of fish that "must die," lest they represent a waste of public money. Unfortunately, the most effective means of getting them dead does nothing to prevent making the wild fish in the mix just as dead.
Basically, we're not getting rid of hatcheries, no matter how much better that might be for wild fish. We don't need wild salmon to have salmon fisheries. That's why the powers that be (those making court decisions like this one) don't care about wild fish recovery. All they are concerned with is keeping commercial (and, to a far lesser extent, sport) fishing going. To do that with wild fish would require no small measure of restraint in setting fishing seasons, probably for a lot of years. That represents too many years of lost profit and lost jobs to ever be a possibility in the current political environment.
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#976553 - 04/26/17 01:11 PM
Re: Elwha Hatcheries -Feds win in 9th Circuit decision
[Re: JustBecause]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7440
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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To add to FleaFlickr2's comment, wild fish, even if restored to "historic" levels could not meet the demand and be sustainable at those levels. We have stark choices IF wild fish are important:
1. Control human population so that salmonid ecosystems are preserved. This includes the oceans.
2. Limit all harvests (directed, incidental, whatever) to what the sustainable population can support. This includes not only the "traditional" salmon fisheries but food-web fisheries, trawling (impacts in AK). Note just how many wild trout are allowed to be killed in the successful wild trout fisheries.
As one of the Lummi managers commented in the papers about 30 years ago, when asked about the status of wild coho in the Nooksack "Wild fish are nice, but the people gotta eat".
Pogo was right, but we won't face that one.
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#976565 - 04/26/17 06:40 PM
Re: Elwha Hatcheries -Feds win in 9th Circuit decision
[Re: JustBecause]
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Spawner
Registered: 01/22/06
Posts: 917
Loc: tacoma
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Same outcome after the eruption of Mt St Helens. Perfect situation to understand how wild fish populations recover into former habitats. Scientists pleaded to set aside at least a portion of the area for research and wild fish recovery without hatchery intervention. Policy makers vetoed that idea and broadcast hatchery fish into every possible stream to support restoration of harvest opportunity, even above natural barriers where species never occurred previously. Non native stocks persist above those barriers today, to the detriment of native species.
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#976571 - 04/26/17 07:27 PM
Re: Elwha Hatcheries -Feds win in 9th Circuit decision
[Re: JustBecause]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7440
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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Couple of things to keep in mind about St Helens and the WDF hatchery there. State Law is if you don't use your water right for its defined use for 5 years, you lose it. Must us it all. The lease for the land had a similar clause; no use you lose.
It would have been better, in my opinion, to have gone with totally natural recovery but that would likely mean the permanent loss of the hatchery if one ever wanted re-open.
Second aspect of recovery is that all native species upstream of a natural barrier were permanently lost, never to be recovered.
It was a more complex decision than just plant the **ck out of the system.
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