Check

 

Defiance Boats!

LURECHARGE!

THE PP OUTDOOR FORUMS

Kast Gear!

Power Pro Shimano Reels G Loomis Rods

  Willie boats! Puffballs!

 

Three Rivers Marine

 

 
Page 2 of 3 < 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#977152 - 05/24/17 11:23 AM Re: Washington state loses legal battle over salmon [Re: DrifterWA]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4393
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope

DW & I went by it on the way to the Doc yesterday and it is 14 million on the sign. The 10.7 came from staff when he inquired. Now this is the question that is puzzling. Why would you spend 14 M on those streams that have only a few miles of marginal habitat? In this state the Chehalis is in much better shape than most and harvest is mainly natural with healthy runs. There are many places 14M could have made a real difference for fish. This one is a bit of PC crap while marginally helping our fish here could have made a real difference in many places. In other words spend the funds where the greatest bang for the buck is rather than some DOT staffer drawing one out of the hat.
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

Top
#977153 - 05/24/17 11:52 AM Re: Washington state loses legal battle over salmon [Re: NickD90]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7410
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
How about spending over a million to bridge a creek (removing a box culvert that was a block at almost all flows), opening 10 miles of stream to chum and coho and then proposing to significantly lower the chum EG?

Top
#977154 - 05/24/17 11:57 AM Re: Washington state loses legal battle over salmon [Re: Carcassman]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4393
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
Still have 13M to go. You gotta luv how we do EC's or not. Just depends on who is punching the donkey.


Edited by Rivrguy (05/24/17 11:59 AM)
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

Top
#977163 - 05/24/17 03:35 PM Re: Washington state loses legal battle over salmon [Re: NickD90]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7410
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Well, yeah. But I million for 70 feet of bridge??

One thing about S/R data is that if you keep the data base short you don't see declines. Heck, WDFW and the Feds kept the data base short enough so they could say that fishing did not affect adult Chinook size. Chinooks were not getting smaller. Amazing what you can do if you properly select your data.

But, then, you folks in GH have never seen massaging like that. Right?

Top
#977164 - 05/24/17 04:39 PM Re: Washington state loses legal battle over salmon [Re: NickD90]
FleaFlickr02 Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
Thanks for the education, Sg. I hadn't considered the darting angle, nor the fact that culverts don't offer rest spots along the way, as most natural fast water does.

The project with which I'm most familiar is the Wildcat Creek project referenced above (I've enjoyed slow commuting past McCleary all year, with a lot more to come). I rode in a vanpool with a guy that lives above the "blockages" on Wildcat Creek, and he sees chum (granted, in pathetic numbers) in his backyard every fall, so if there is a blockage, it's not total. Enormous expense notwithstanding, however, it does seem this could improve passage, and it's probably the "right thing to do."

I think DOT may have opted for that project now because they are also doing a large paving project on Highway 8, between Oly and McCleary, and the efficiency potential was too good to pass up.

Top
#977165 - 05/24/17 05:08 PM Re: Washington state loses legal battle over salmon [Re: NickD90]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7410
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
If chum can get past a blockage then it is not much of a block. They are generally considered the most inept of migrators and stop at the first chance.

Top
#977173 - 05/25/17 04:57 AM Re: Washington state loses legal battle over salmon [Re: Carcassman]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4393
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
And Chum on Wildcat are mostly from the fork that comes down from behind Simpson door plant and mostly on one guys property. By the way number is dependent on harvest which translated means they CANNOT take the harvest rate. Hell that is the case for Chum in the Chehalis ABOVE the Satsop. Not yipping here but rather this is something I objected to over the years. I am sure the agencies will parade something by if you ask. Chum / Wildcat Cr. they have a harvest problem plain and simple.
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

Top
#977175 - 05/25/17 07:19 AM Re: Washington state loses legal battle over salmon [Re: NickD90]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7410
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Nah, Rivrguy. Those chum, as are all WA salmon, managed to within a gnat's ass of perfection. Just some small tweaks, mostly habitat, and we will be up to our ears in salmon. Harvest has absolutely nothing to do with the lack of fish, the size of fish, the timing of fish, etc. It's almost all habitat with a some hydro and hatcheries thrown in for seasoning.

Top
#977177 - 05/25/17 07:46 AM Re: Washington state loses legal battle over salmon [Re: NickD90]
Soft bite Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 11/11/08
Posts: 147
Loc: Central Park
Back when these projects were being authorized there was a public comment opportunity. Below is the comment I submitted. I even got a nice thank you for my effort. Based on comments from WDFW at North of Falcon it was clear that there was no interest in adding anything to the escapement goals. (That would cut into harvest.) I did not follow up to see if my suggestion was implemented but would assume not.

Mr. Davis:

I enjoyed seeing your Habitat News letter and would like to make a suggestion that could improve the results for barrier removal and other enhancement projects.

My career was spent as a project engineer in a manufacturing plant and I would like to describe a private industry view of spending money on projects. Money was always a scarce resource and competing projects were expected to return a profit. That profit was usually measured in dollars or a rate of return. There was also an after the fact review and accountability for results.

As you embark on habitat improvement with millions of public dollars for projects I would like to suggest criteria for evaluation. Each project will most likely have a cost estimate and should also include an estimate of the number of incremental spawners that can be added to the escapement goal. The second part would require help from department biologists to generate a number based on good science. The project sorting criteria would be dollars expended per annual incremental spawner added to the escapement goal. The priority would be given to projects that cost the least per incremental spawner. There should also be a minimum return hurdle that will reject projects that are not productive.

At some point it should be possible to evaluate the success of failure of projects based on the original criteria. I would suggest something like an immediate review of the physical project followed by a five year review of the success in adding spawners to the escapement goal. This would be useful for optimizing future expenditures on successful habitat projects.

Sincerely:

Top
#977178 - 05/25/17 08:05 AM Re: Washington state loses legal battle over salmon [Re: Soft bite]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4393
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope

John you did er right! Bravo!!!!!
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

Top
#977179 - 05/25/17 08:21 AM Re: Washington state loses legal battle over salmon [Re: NickD90]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7410
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
I would suggest that the evaluation suggestion be sent to the Feds who often provide the grant funds for this. When a proposal comes in you can evaluate based on hw many fish per dollar you get. But, it would have to include a monitoring requirement. How often is a project done and then never followed up on to see if it delivered.

And, maybe, in an ideal world, there would be a penalty (money paid back) if the project's realized benefits were, say, 75% or less of what the project was sold on.

Top
#977180 - 05/25/17 08:49 AM Re: Washington state loses legal battle over salmon [Re: NickD90]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
Carcassman looks to be getting cynical in his advanced years. >grin<

Top
#977181 - 05/25/17 09:14 AM Re: Washington state loses legal battle over salmon [Re: NickD90]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7410
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Just trying to catch Salmo smile

Top
#977183 - 05/25/17 09:40 AM Re: Washington state loses legal battle over salmon [Re: NickD90]
Krijack Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 1531
Loc: Tacoma
Is there a way the culverts with minor gradient issues, causing a flow issue, be modified? It seems that in some cases small humps or even boulders could be secured to the bottom of the culver to allow relief. I realize this may change the engineering and capacity, but is it even being looked at?

Top
#977184 - 05/25/17 09:43 AM Re: Washington state loses legal battle over salmon [Re: NickD90]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Unfortunately hatcheries have always been evaluated by how many smolts they release, and habitat work has been measured by how many trees they plant, or how many square feet of spawning habitat is made available, never mind you what the actual number of returning hatchery adults is or if there are actually any fish that use that new spawning habitat.

Then, of course, is the over all measure of success; Did you spend your entire budget?

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


Top
#977189 - 05/25/17 12:41 PM Re: Washington state loses legal battle over salmon [Re: Krijack]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7410
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
If you lower the ability of the existing culvert to pass water then you will place the structure in danger from failure in flood. As with all things costing money we do the minimum necessary. If the stream flood is 10cfs then we size the culvert for 10. Reduce capacity and we can then replace it with a bridge when it blows out.

Top
#977190 - 05/25/17 12:42 PM Re: Washington state loses legal battle over salmon [Re: NickD90]
WDFW X 1 = 0 Offline
My Area code makes me cooler than you

Registered: 01/27/15
Posts: 4549
Alright now the fun stuff team.

Since there ain't gonna be no fish to catch...................Let's get busy populating this state!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Saddle up Bitches!

Top
#977194 - 05/25/17 01:07 PM Re: Washington state loses legal battle over salmon [Re: NickD90]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7410
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Consider that WA has had listed salmonids since at least the 90s. At that point in time, close to 25 years ago, the cumulative human footprint was already excessive. And the population has not been holding stable since then. Given a choice between fishing, hunting, or increasing the population I think the "votes" are in!

Top
#977203 - 05/26/17 08:36 AM Re: Washington state loses legal battle over salmon [Re: Krijack]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
Originally Posted By: Krijack
Is there a way the culverts with minor gradient issues, causing a flow issue, be modified? It seems that in some cases small humps or even boulders could be secured to the bottom of the culver to allow relief. I realize this may change the engineering and capacity, but is it even being looked at?


In the case of perched culverts it is sometimes possible to make them passable to fish by constructing a small fish ladder on the downstream end. It's case specific; I've seen photos of a couple examples where this method has been used successfully. As Carcassman mentioned, adding flow velocity features inside culverts reduces their hydraulic capacity. Baffles have been used with some success when the culverts were sized large enough to allow the modifications. A glaring problem is that until the Timber, Fish, & Wildlife Act of 1988, DNR routinely permitted the installation of under-sized culverts simply because small culverts cost less. As one might expect, this led to many cases of culvert blowouts and road washouts and mass wasting during flood events. It was a big deal at the time for DNR to agree to require culverts large enough to pass expected flood flows, since it saves both money and the environment in the long term.

Sg

Top
#977206 - 05/26/17 10:56 AM Re: Washington state loses legal battle over salmon [Re: NickD90]
WDFW X 1 = 0 Offline
My Area code makes me cooler than you

Registered: 01/27/15
Posts: 4549
Gate the roads, remove the culverts, and let nature be nature.

Man just continues to encroach and then try to fool mother nature's common sense.

Man is the fool.

Top
Page 2 of 3 < 1 2 3 >

Search

Site Links
Home
Our Washington Fishing
Our Alaska Fishing
Reports
Rates
Contact Us
About Us
Recipes
Photos / Videos
Visit us on Facebook
Today's Birthdays
3Gonads, herm
Recent Gallery Pix
hatchery steelhead
Hatchery Releases into the Pacific and Harvest
Who's Online
0 registered (), 1098 Guests and 2 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
John Boob, Lawrence, I'm Still RichG, feyt, Freezeout
11498 Registered Users
Top Posters
Todd 28170
Dan S. 17149
Sol Duc 16138
The Moderator 14486
Salmo g. 13520
eyeFISH 12766
STRIKE ZONE 12107
Dogfish 10979
ParaLeaks 10513
Jerry Garcia 9160
Forum Stats
11498 Members
16 Forums
63773 Topics
645291 Posts

Max Online: 3001 @ 01/28/20 02:48 PM

Join the PP forums.

It's quick, easy, and always free!

Working for the fish and our future fishing opportunities:

The Wild Steelhead Coalition

The Photo & Video Gallery. Nearly 1200 images from our fishing trips! Tips, techniques, live weight calculator & more in the Fishing Resource Center. The time is now to get prime dates for 2018 Olympic Peninsula Winter Steelhead , don't miss out!.

| HOME | ALASKA FISHING | WASHINGTON FISHING | RIVER REPORTS | FORUMS | FISHING RESOURCE CENTER | CHARTER RATES | CONTACT US | WHAT ABOUT BOB? | PHOTO & VIDEO GALLERY | LEARN ABOUT THE FISH | RECIPES | SITE HELP & FAQ |