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#979582 - 09/08/17 05:27 PM Deer Management/Harvest Numbers
Myassisdragon Offline
Spawner

Registered: 07/07/14
Posts: 859
Loc: The Wet Side
Here in Washington state, out in the great west with three different species of deer to hunt, lots of hunting access, we managed to produce /harvest 31,300 deer last season.

West Virginia, back in the old eastern part of the country, with just one species of huntable deer, managed to produce 112,300 for their hunters. Not bad for a much smaller state located way back east.

Head scratcher, and wondering why...
_________________________
Hmmm

- "Wild steelhead were more numerous this year than they were in the 1970s" ( ITYOOL - 2015 )

- "It's past the time to "play nice", after all, they are pooching us royally."

D'uh!

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#979587 - 09/08/17 08:59 PM Re: Deer Management/Harvest Numbers [Re: Myassisdragon]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 4072
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Whitetail are able to live more easily with people. They regularly live at higher densities. Most populations are resident, which requires much less land then migratory herds. Whitetail are more productive with does having more twins and triplets so they can sustain a higher harvest rate.

For the anti-predator crowd they don't have the natural predators we do here

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#979590 - 09/08/17 11:54 PM Re: Deer Management/Harvest Numbers [Re: Myassisdragon]
NickD90 Offline
Shooting Instructor for hire

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 3352
Loc: Snohomish, WA
+1 to what CM said. I would add...

I've hunted all 3 standard deer species. IMO - Washington BT's are the hardest big game animal to hunt in NA, including sheep (for a lot of reasons). Mostly, you can't pattern them and they live in the most dense and hostile hunting country around. ALL of the advantages are in their favor. Eastern WT hunters would have a stroke if they had to hunt here. As Todd has said, there is a reason you don't really see any BT hunting shows. It would take all season to get 5 seconds of video.

Lastly, season length and type plays a big factor. A lot of eastern states allow liberal hunting bags and liberal hunting methods over several months.

PS: whitetails are frickin' stupid. I used to stack em' like cord wood when our family had a 50 head crop damage permit. They are the hatchery steelhead of the hunting world. Just put food in their face and set the rod...
_________________________
“If the military were fighting for our freedom, they would be storming Capitol Hill”. – FleaFlickr02

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#979592 - 09/09/17 07:38 AM Re: Deer Management/Harvest Numbers [Re: Myassisdragon]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 4072
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Speaking of BT's, the guy who taught me bowhunting had a buck staked out. To intercept him, Jim lay down in a roadside ditch. The deer never showed. When Jim got up, the deer was behind him, watching him. Jim passed on that opportunity as he felt the deer won that round.

Although BT cover is generally too damn thick, the area we often hunted in Sierras was about as thick. I have stood on Mountain Cherry "bushes" and it was 5-10' to the ground.

In my experience, WT are the "easiest" to find and see. And, like Nick said, if you have enough for depredation permits they are dumb enough for even me to be successful.

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#979620 - 09/11/17 11:39 AM Re: Deer Management/Harvest Numbers [Re: Myassisdragon]
Myassisdragon Offline
Spawner

Registered: 07/07/14
Posts: 859
Loc: The Wet Side
Hmm, sounds like a bunch of deer biggots to me ! wink

Having hunted all three species here in Wa, I tend to have a bit more respect for the White tail than some here are showing.

I'll add this qualifier, and see if the response remains the same.

What do you think is the tuffest of this state's deer to get ?

All will be hunting during the late buck modern firearm season, all will be held to a three point minimum, and we all must hunt on non private, open access hunting areas here in Washington State.
_________________________
Hmmm

- "Wild steelhead were more numerous this year than they were in the 1970s" ( ITYOOL - 2015 )

- "It's past the time to "play nice", after all, they are pooching us royally."

D'uh!

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#979621 - 09/11/17 12:06 PM Re: Deer Management/Harvest Numbers [Re: Myassisdragon]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 4072
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
I think BT would be toughest, given the habitat. Next would be the WT; when I have hunted them the habitat is more open. Easiest would be the mule because in the open habitat you have more chances of seeing them.

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#979631 - 09/11/17 07:29 PM Re: Deer Management/Harvest Numbers [Re: Myassisdragon]
NickD90 Offline
Shooting Instructor for hire

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 3352
Loc: Snohomish, WA
Concur. BT's. Easily.

Their habitat does not lend itself to several hunting techniques (spot and stalk etc). Or just even a human moving about in general. Rain - lots and lost of rain.
Their home range is tiny compared to other deer.
They are more nocturnal than other deer.
They don't herd up like other deer.
They pattern entirely for chit.
Their "escape" methods are beyond intelligent. No other deer will actually follow along behind you. They frickin' CRAWL on their bellies for crying out loud!
They are true browsers and get their water from their food. They can get everything they need to live in a 10' patch of mixed scrub brush.
They don't really migrate and if they do, it's not very far.
They don't make scrapes and they don't really respond to rattling, calling or rut scents all that much.

Most of the above is in "general". I'm sure there have been plenty of instances counter to the above as exceptions to the rule. Look up the success rates by species in this state and that will tell you the whole story. There is a reason most fellas head east for their deer. OR fight over lazy clear cuts. It's frickin' hard work against long odds going into the bush after ghosts.

Lastly, BT's are genetically more prone to have smaller racks with less points. A BIG two pt. BT is comparable to a nice 4x4 MD or WT (no eastern counting here). So, IMO - I think a 3x3 BT is a pretty tall order and could potentially take many seasons to harvest. Or at least several seasons at my going rate!
_________________________
“If the military were fighting for our freedom, they would be storming Capitol Hill”. – FleaFlickr02

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#979633 - 09/11/17 08:16 PM Re: Deer Management/Harvest Numbers [Re: Myassisdragon]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 4072
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Another interesting aspect of the question is that the mulie is the result of a cross between BT and WT. Even though BT are considered a subspecies of mulie, they are evolutionarily older.

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#979634 - 09/11/17 08:47 PM Re: Deer Management/Harvest Numbers [Re: Myassisdragon]
NickD90 Offline
Shooting Instructor for hire

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 3352
Loc: Snohomish, WA
Correct! I've read that the BT male dominance gene responsible for antler design is more "active" than that of a WT and that's why they think Mulies ended up with forked antlers vs. the main beam design of WT's. IMO - I think the subspecies ranking came about due to the order with which they were discovered and documented. It took until modern genetics came about for the correction to be made.

All this deer talk is getting me itchy scratchy for my season to begin....
_________________________
“If the military were fighting for our freedom, they would be storming Capitol Hill”. – FleaFlickr02

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#979646 - 09/12/17 08:04 AM Re: Deer Management/Harvest Numbers [Re: Myassisdragon]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 4072
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Behaviorally, the WT is apparently dominant over the mulie. Perhaps because they are resident and better tolerate humans. I understand that the WT are spreading down the Coulumbia. I thought I saw a roadkill doe on I-5 south of Winlock a few years back. But, if they ever get established here on the wetside it will make things interesting as they will be significantly more abundant than the BT. Talk about Yard Rats!

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#979649 - 09/12/17 09:20 AM Re: Deer Management/Harvest Numbers [Re: Myassisdragon]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 4072
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Ya notice, though, that the Sitka BT looks very Whitetailish in its antlers?

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#979654 - 09/12/17 12:08 PM Re: Deer Management/Harvest Numbers [Re: Myassisdragon]
WDFW X 1 = 0 Offline
Hi How Are Ya?

Registered: 01/27/15
Posts: 1874
What I noticed is whitetails have a black tail and blacktails have a white tail.

All that being considered the a$$hole remains pink on both.

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#979666 - 09/12/17 06:01 PM Re: Deer Management/Harvest Numbers [Re: WDFW X 1 = 0]
Myassisdragon Offline
Spawner

Registered: 07/07/14
Posts: 859
Loc: The Wet Side
Originally Posted By: WDFW X 1 = 0
What I noticed is whitetails have a black tail and blacktails have a white tail.

All that being considered the a$$hole remains pink on both.



If you can see the pink in either, you're getting reel bow-close for sure, maybe too close ? wink
_________________________
Hmmm

- "Wild steelhead were more numerous this year than they were in the 1970s" ( ITYOOL - 2015 )

- "It's past the time to "play nice", after all, they are pooching us royally."

D'uh!

Top
#979701 - 09/13/17 01:00 PM Re: Deer Management/Harvest Numbers [Re: Myassisdragon]
wsu Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 06/23/04
Posts: 279
Loc: Olympia, Wa
I'd say whitetails are pretty easy to hunt with the exception of mature bucks. I hunted quite a bit in Pullman and killing does or younger bucks was pretty easy. Killing a mature buck was damn near impossible. They are there, I saw them in the summer when they would be out in daylight, but my friends and I never killed any truly mature deer.

Blacktails are definitely harder, both young and old.

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#979712 - 09/13/17 07:39 PM Re: Deer Management/Harvest Numbers [Re: Myassisdragon]
NickD90 Offline
Shooting Instructor for hire

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 3352
Loc: Snohomish, WA
Mature WT are no joke depending on where you're hunting. I haven't hunted western WT's before (WA / OR) and can only speak of the mid-west. They aren't overly hard back in MI, PA, OH, WI, NE, IA etc. Hard, but not BT hard. I'm taking 8 pt class, eastern count. Standard fair mature deer (not monsters). I taken more big mature Colorado and Wyoming MT's than any other deer. A LOT more...and some brutes in the mix. Maybe I'll post some pics on day....
_________________________
“If the military were fighting for our freedom, they would be storming Capitol Hill”. – FleaFlickr02

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#979731 - 09/14/17 12:59 PM Re: Deer Management/Harvest Numbers [Re: Myassisdragon]
Krijack Offline
Spawner

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 946
Loc: Tacoma
My dream is that they will start moving some Columbia white tail around and let them get established. Just take a few and put them on Fort Lewis or some of the wild life preserves around the west side and let them get established. Lots of the suburban areas I work in would be perfect for them.

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#979739 - 09/14/17 04:52 PM Re: Deer Management/Harvest Numbers [Re: Myassisdragon]
Todd Offline
Bumpin the 6X9's

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 23815
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
All of my experience is on the west coast, from central California up to Washington, both on the east and west side of the mountains, so speaking about those areas only it's not even worth a conversation; a coastal blacktail is not only the hardest to hunt of the three subspecies, but it's harder by a factor of ten, at least.

Mature bucks of all sorts are harder than younger bucks or does, there are far fewer of them and the ones that survive to five or six years old have dodged more than a few hunters to make it that far, not to mention whatever other predators are around.

That being said, you are probably still more likely to shoot a three point mulie or a three point whitetail than you are to shoot a blacktail doe. A big, mature coastal blacktail buck is the hardest by far of all the big game we have on the west coast of the US.

Fish on...

Todd

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#979754 - 09/15/17 08:03 AM Re: Deer Management/Harvest Numbers [Re: Myassisdragon]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 12043
It must be September because I haven't seen a BT buck in weeks now. Fewer deer in total although the neighborhood is still full of them. Just the resident doe and her two fawns in my yard yesterday. Based on my summer survey of walking around the lake, there are 2 3-point bucks, a handful of fork horns, and an unknown number of spike bucks, and a ton of does and yearling and sub-yearling fawns.

A neighbor down the street had 5 tags filled from his back porch last fall. It didn't make a dent in the local population. I'm not competing with him, but hope to have bow hunters remove a couple from my back yard too this season. I'm just not seeing them outside my back yard fence lately, but they must still be here.

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#979768 - 09/15/17 02:40 PM Re: Deer Management/Harvest Numbers [Re: Myassisdragon]
Krijack Offline
Spawner

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 946
Loc: Tacoma
Most white tail are taken on a stand. My personal experience is that they are harder to hunt by stalking than black tail. Mulies are by far the easiest as they generally are in the open. I have walked up on several mature black tail but only have taken one that was really nice. I tried stalking one mature white tail that I spotted bow hunting. He was down hill and slightly behind me with the wind blowing away. I spotted him and froze, waiting for him to come forward. He was still walking, then froze, lifted his tail and took off on in an instant. No way he spotted me and I still do not know how he knew I was there. On that hunt I probably saw a hundred white tail a day and never got close enough to even a doe for a shot. I am sure with a stand I could have taken several a day. Trying to sneak up on them was next to impossible.

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