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#980625 - 10/13/17 09:35 PM Re: CORPS inability to function is frustrating / PNP [Re: ned]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7410
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
That still leaves them 14 more days to collect.

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#980626 - 10/13/17 09:43 PM Re: CORPS inability to function is frustrating / PNP [Re: Carcassman]
Piper
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Carcassman
That still leaves them 14 more days to collect.


to collect what?

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#980627 - 10/13/17 10:32 PM Re: CORPS inability to function is frustrating / PNP [Re: ]
Piper
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Piper
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
That still leaves them 14 more days to collect.


to collect what?


seriously, who do you work for?

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#980628 - 10/13/17 10:37 PM Re: CORPS inability to function is frustrating / PNP [Re: ]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Piper
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
That still leaves them 14 more days to collect.


to collect what?


Fourteen more days to harvest "whatever" without any usage of the site by recreational fishers.

That perspective is exactly why the tribal objection is so unreasonable and unsupportable. And why they could not provide any specificity to their objection that PNP usage by the public as intended would adversely impact their ability to exercise their Treaty rights (as if they have been unable to harvest their 50%). It simply does not pass the whiff test!

Apparently the Corps simply does not want to make a decision and face the political fallout. If not that, what??
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#980629 - 10/13/17 10:39 PM Re: CORPS inability to function is frustrating / PNP [Re: ]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7410
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Days. They had 351. Add 14 and you get all 365.

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#980630 - 10/13/17 10:48 PM Re: CORPS inability to function is frustrating / PNP [Re: ned]
Piper
Unregistered


so you dont work for sportsmen... just be honest

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#980631 - 10/13/17 11:03 PM Re: CORPS inability to function is frustrating / PNP [Re: ]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Piper
so you dont work for sportsmen... just be honest


I don't always agree with CM (and vice versa) but in this instance I believe you completely missed his point.

That said, I am not going to engage in further input as CM is pretty good at defending himself. Just thought I would offer up an unsolicited third party opinion.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#980632 - 10/13/17 11:30 PM Re: CORPS inability to function is frustrating / PNP [Re: ned]
Piper
Unregistered


Carrcassman probably works for WDFW... Larry B probably doesn't...

WDWF would do us all a favor and go out and fish puget sound... dont just take the native americans word for it

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#980635 - 10/14/17 07:02 AM Re: CORPS inability to function is frustrating / PNP [Re: ned]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7410
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
While I did, in a past life, work at WDFW (and both its predecessors), my career was spent working for the fish and the ecosystem that supports them and which they, especially salmon, are the keystone species.

My first loyalty was to ensuring the resource was protected and thriving. In my view, a dead fish doesn't spawn and really doesn't matter who or what killed it. That said, as an employee back then I worked hard (in daily interactions because we managed salmon day to day) to ensure that the non-Indian got their share. While most of the action was focused on the PS net fishery (we managed adults returning to spawn) I was also involved in pushing, and getting, rec fisheries opened to.

The Tribes are taking over the fisheries and we (agencies, politicians, and stakeholders) are letting this occur.

Piper is right, though, that it would do WDFW a whole lot of good if employees fished and hunted more. At a minimum, they would have to read the pamphlets.

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#980638 - 10/14/17 08:21 AM Re: CORPS inability to function is frustrating / PNP [Re: ]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Piper
Carrcassman probably works for WDFW... Larry B probably doesn't...

WDWF would do us all a favor and go out and fish puget sound... dont just take the native americans word for it


Just to be clear........I no longer work (as evidenced by the timing of my posts grin ) nor have I ever worked for WDFW. At 70 I am third generation here in the PNW and have two sons and a granddaughter here and have been fishing since I was about 4. In short, I am invested in the PNW and am trying to ensure my progeny have the best opportunities possible all factors considered.

Oh, and since I was born in the U.S. I am a Native American, can trace my roots to the Mayflower, and have significant Norwegian heritage so could even be related to Vikings who traveled to the Americans around 1,000 A.D. Point being, we are all immigrants to the Americas.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#980757 - 10/19/17 10:34 PM Re: CORPS inability to function is frustrating / PNP [Re: Larry B]
no fish10 Offline
Fry

Registered: 12/12/11
Posts: 37
I attended probably the last real meeting on this at a WDFW meeting in port townsend with my Kitsap CCA president. Previously I had attended Kitsap county commissioner meetings on this with my poggie president. The county commissioner that was blocking it retired and the county signed off on it . The person that sold the property to the state decades ago was then evicted by the state and the buildings were torn down.

The state had all plans for years so the state was able to put in the parking lot fast and easy and it looks great. The problem is the corps is not going to sign off on the ramp until the state obtains full agreement with the tribe. The corps has told the state this and that is the way it is.

At the meeting at port townsend the sportfishermen in attendance told WDFW that there was no way that they wanted to share that ramp with the Suquamish tribe. They wanted it for themselves only. The tribe will not sign off unless they also get to use the ramp. No sharing no ramp period. I saw the look on the faces of WDFW and I knew it was over. There will be no ramp at point no point unless we learn to share and we're too bullheaded to do that. Never gonna happen.

Now no one wants to believe what I just stated but I am afraid it is an inconvienient truth . I wonder what will happen first the Belfair bypass or the PNP ramp?

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#980758 - 10/19/17 11:07 PM Re: CORPS inability to function is frustrating / PNP [Re: no fish10]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: no fish10


At the meeting at port townsend the sportfishermen in attendance told WDFW that there was no way that they wanted to share that ramp with the Suquamish tribe. They wanted it for themselves only. The tribe will not sign off unless they also get to use the ramp. No sharing no ramp period. I saw the look on the faces of WDFW and I knew it was over. There will be no ramp at point no point unless we learn to share and we're too bullheaded to do that. Never gonna happen.



Since I testified at that meeting and have otherwise been involved in the PNP fiasco let me correct a significant error in what you have written.

The objection by tribal interests was that the launch MIGHT result in an adverse impact in their ability to exercise their Treaty rights. It was not because they could not use the ramp which WDFW has clearly and repeatedly said they could access.

What the tribes want to do is off-load product and have 24 hour use of the facility - both of which are problematic.

First is that the design and purchase of the property was accomplished using RCO money. Use of RCO money precludes commercial activities on the site - in this case read that as being the transfer of harvested product from fisher to buyer. The WDFW has repeatedly said that tribal fishers can use WDFW launches; they just have to do so IAW the applicable laws and regs to include the limitations set forth for RCO funds. It is not that the Tribes wouldn't be able to use the ramp - it is that they can't conduct commercial activities on site. That is a huge difference from what you presented.
It has absolutely NOTHING to do with what any non-tribal folks may want or not want.

The other conflict is that the overnight usage demanded by the tribal interests would be in direct violation of the operational limitations for the launch as established during Kitsap County's public process leading to the issuance of the permit to which you referred. Simply put, the neighbors understandably do not want 24 hour operations to include staging of operational reefer trucks in their residential neighborhood.

The real problem here is that the Corps apparently is unwilling to look at the overall picture and come to the conclusion that the tribal concerns were de minimis and that their demands were dead on arrival and amounted to nothing more than a way to kill the project.

Since you were at that meeting you certainly were privy to the letter from the Director to the tribes, right?
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#980760 - 10/20/17 12:07 AM Re: CORPS inability to function is frustrating / PNP [Re: ned]
no fish10 Offline
Fry

Registered: 12/12/11
Posts: 37
A few years back I was down on the Columbia river at a dam. I looked over and saw a boat ramp and thought great there is a ramp I can use. When I drove over there the sign said tribal use only. I really didn't care who paid for the ramp (Me, probably my taxes ) or what the regulations were. I was very unhappy that I could not use it because my skin was the wrong color.

I imagine the tribe feels the same way about this ramp. Has anyone asked them? The only thing the tribe does is commercial. If they cannot use it for that I am sure they have lost interest. That letter from the director is probably sitting in the back of a file cabinet. Under the current situation we now have that YOU just described I do not see much chance of success. The tribe like anyone can be bought and the price is access to the ramp.

No one wants to hear or believe what I just typed including me but I am afraid it is true.

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#980765 - 10/20/17 06:11 AM Re: CORPS inability to function is frustrating / PNP [Re: ned]
_WW_ Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/30/13
Posts: 233
Loc: Skagit
Would guiding/chartering be considered a commercial enterprise?
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Catch & Release Is Not A Crime

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#980767 - 10/20/17 08:17 AM Re: CORPS inability to function is frustrating / PNP [Re: no fish10]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: no fish10
The tribe like anyone can be bought and the price is access to the ramp.

No one wants to hear or believe what I just typed including me but I am afraid it is true.


And this gets to the crux of the issue. Should the non-tribal citizens of the State have to pay off tribal interests for access across public property to a public waterway on the basis of a specious claim of prospective damages? I consider that to be extortion and unfortunately the Corps is facilitating it.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#980768 - 10/20/17 08:35 AM Re: CORPS inability to function is frustrating / PNP [Re: Larry B]
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1075
Loc: Graham, WA
Originally Posted By: Larry B
Originally Posted By: no fish10
The tribe like anyone can be bought and the price is access to the ramp.

No one wants to hear or believe what I just typed including me but I am afraid it is true.


And this gets to the crux of the issue. Should the non-tribal citizens of the State have to pay off tribal interests for access across public property to a public waterway on the basis of a specious claim of prospective damages? I consider that to be extortion and unfortunately the Corps is facilitating it.


Can public property be considered under the same guidelines as reservation property. A whole river was commandeered and the public lost all access. So, there is no prejudice shown to the tribes in this case. All Commercial activities are prohibited by state statute, not just tribal. It's State law, as citizens of the State, they and everyone should comply.
_________________________
"Forgiveness is between them and God. My job is to arrange the meeting."

1Sgt U.S. Army (Ret)

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#980774 - 10/20/17 11:04 AM Re: CORPS inability to function is frustrating / PNP [Re: Bay wolf]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Bay wolf
Originally Posted By: Larry B
Originally Posted By: no fish10
The tribe like anyone can be bought and the price is access to the ramp.

No one wants to hear or believe what I just typed including me but I am afraid it is true.


And this gets to the crux of the issue. Should the non-tribal citizens of the State have to pay off tribal interests for access across public property to a public waterway on the basis of a specious claim of prospective damages? I consider that to be extortion and unfortunately the Corps is facilitating it.


Can public property be considered under the same guidelines as reservation property. A whole river was commandeered and the public lost all access. So, there is no prejudice shown to the tribes in this case. All Commercial activities are prohibited by state statute, not just tribal. It's State law, as citizens of the State, they and everyone should comply.


Commandeered is a good description for the Federal action on the Skok insofar as it was the Dept. of Interior's legal opinion as to where the reservation boundary is located which caused the State's knees to buckle. One must keep in mind that the Dept. of Interior is the parent organization to the Dept. of Indian Affairs and, therefore, is not exactly perceived by many of us as having an unbiased, objective position.

The PNP debacle is driven the Corps and their unwillingness to make a decision based upon the information provided to them. Now, if that organization is willing to come out and support the tribal position that tribal rights include the ability to put a stop to any and all projects within their (tribes') U&A no matter how frivolous until and unless the permit applicant pays off the tribe(s) which is apparently the case we are screwed.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#980963 - 10/26/17 05:29 PM Re: CORPS inability to function is frustrating / PNP [Re: ned]
ned Offline
Spawner

Registered: 06/09/07
Posts: 666
Loc: MA 5, 9, 10
Update Oct 26 Thursday
In 2015, WDFW Director Unsworth’s letter to Col. Buck, Corps of Engineers, said “We are writing to ask that the US Army Corps of Engineers proceed with its decision-making process on the WDFW 2013 permit application to construct a boat launch at Point No Point.”

However, last week, the Corps says they have not been asked by the WDFW to approve the permit. The Corps says , “My current understanding of this situation is that WDFW does not want a permit decision over tribal objections at this time.”

What is the “situation”? What objections? To me, it appears the WDFW was going full speed ahead in 2015, then hit a snag, and there is some tertiary/alternate reason (threat of retribution) so the WDFW has not asked again for the approval. We know the tribe wants compensation for damages they refuse to specify, and I know the WDFW has negotiated to great extent, last year offering to pay for their fish food (literally) for tribal hatcheries…but there is something else going on.

I think the tribes have bought time by delaying the process, and may have integrated new demands, most likely at a higher price. WDFW has proactively contacted the tribe over the last 4 years (or more), and have addressed every legitimate issue they’ve had.
I’ve sent 6 emails in the past 3 months to WFDW, all without reply. So, as it stands right now, the Corps has indicated they’ll proceed, as soon as the WDFW asks then to. WHATS THE HOLD UP?

To me, I don’t know what the new issue is because the WDFW has never called back. That makes it hard to know what the pay-back will be down the road, or what threat of extortion they are under for some other issue…I do know this project started with a $1,000,000 budget, and the cost-to-date because of delays now exceeds $5,000,000, and it’s not done yet….no ramp in sight!

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#981030 - 10/29/17 08:31 AM Re: CORPS inability to function is frustrating / PNP [Re: ned]
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1075
Loc: Graham, WA
Perhaps "someone" should reach out to various media and social media outlets and point some fingers at this huge waste of taxpayers dollars??


Edited by Bay wolf (10/29/17 08:32 AM)
_________________________
"Forgiveness is between them and God. My job is to arrange the meeting."

1Sgt U.S. Army (Ret)

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#981037 - 10/29/17 04:15 PM Re: CORPS inability to function is frustrating / PNP [Re: ned]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
I'm afraid the media isn't interested in anything that paints the tribes negatively and, frankly, the Corps doesn't seem to be willing/able (politics??) to render any decision.

It has been approximately two years since the Director sent his letter to the Corps asking for a decision. When does inaction become a negative response? What is the appeal process? Court?

If it involves the State suing the Corps will the current Governor and AG be on board?
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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