Was fishing today and found some people leaving with 3 fish (each). I was perplexed. I watched these guys catch these fish on bobber and eggs, they looked legit and when I talked to them they were very pleasant. The issue was, the limit very clearly (I thought) was 2 fish. They explained that the regs are not clear.

Here is what it says: Min. size 12". Daily limit 6 of which 1 wild COHO and up to 2 adults may be retained. Release CHINOOK.

So....Two hatchery and one wild then? Its the "and" that confusing people. I didn't risk it and only took my two (one "unclipped" and a hatchery). Should it say "of which 1 may be wild"?

I didn't call DFW or anything, these guys didn't take me as the poaching types. I don't know the proper channels to get the rules clarified. Maybe someone here could forward the confusion along to WDFW (or maybe you have an in with someone at region 6).

Don't know what the intent was but the wording "and" would put the wild coho in addition to two adults (non-Chinook). So, three adults but only 1 wild coho.

To complicate it further, what really counts is how the WAC itself is worded. That is the law, not the pamphlet.

Maybe one was a jack????

But to echo my own reply I will say those regs are harder to read than a fricking schematic. Definitely needs more continuity of wording and stricter definitions of those words. We're not all born rocket surgeons after all.

No all obviously adults.

I would love to keep three adults sure, but I am concerned if I got checked I would get a ticket. These wardens are ticket happy these days.

I don't blame you at all. And I agree heartily that the limit there is 2 adults, but admittedly poorly written in the regs such as they are. Plus, who needs more than two fish a day anyway?

Two adults may have been the intent but the wording allows three.

When writing regs, both the WAC and the pamphlet, you have to be very exact and ask how it could be mis-interpreted. Or, you should be.

I checked with my WAC/reg writer friend and that one says "3".

Jesus.

All the time and effort spent by brainiacs in writing the regs, and that's the sh!tty language they use?

Who needs more than 2 fish in a day? Everyone.

This.

It was conscious decision to move in the direction of reg-writing currently on display.

Poorly written but I read it as being three different limitations:

1. Six fish total.
2. of which only one can be a wild coho
3. and up to two adults.

Another permutation is whether the one wild coho includes jacks? Taking my interpretation it would.

Guess that is what WDFW produced in an attempt at brevity.

As to conflicts between the WAC and the regulation pamphlet while the WAC is the law the pamphlet is what WDFW puts out in huge quantities for use by its licensees. If there is a conflict between the two I would opine that a judge would put the responsibility upon the writer (WDFW) rather than the individual who relied upon the erroneous language in the pamphlet.

And, no, I am not an attorney.

The WAC reads TWO ADULTS per day, of which, ONE may be a WILD COHO. The reason it was worded this way in the pamphlet was to prevent the retention of wild coho jacks. While you can use your ONE WILD COHO towards part of your jack limit, you only get ONE WILD COHO per day.

Adults and jacks are managed separately. What you said was two adults, one of which can be a wild coho. The other 4 could be wild coho jacks.

If they wanted retention of only one wild coho of any size then they should specifically say one wild coho of any size.

The saddest part...there is probably a combined wealth of 200+ years fishing knowledge that has commented on this already, and no one really knows the answer. Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I think its done this way to write tickets. They could simply just say, with no legalese, "two adult coho, one of which can be wild". They chose not to.

I place some significance on the order of those three. Had I been writing that with the intent of limiting the wild coho to adults it would have read "Six coho of which only two may be adults to include not more than one wild adult coho."

And, of course, all of this dialog simply reaffirms how poorly it is written.

It's 2 adults, guys, and I think only someone looking to bend the rules on a glory day of fishing would read it otherwise.

I agree it's poorly written, but the only adjective modifying the word "adults" is "2," which in my mind means 2 adults, of which one may be wild. If the limit was three adults, it would say "3 adults" somewhere (it did last time they let us keep three). As for the hatchery vs. wild thing, they are consistent in their reference to HATCHERY salmon and steelhead, throughout the regs when that's what they are addressing.

There's a lot of crap we're justified in dishing up to WDFW. In light of the other issues, can't we just help them out by applying a little common sense here and respecting the word "two" in front of "adults?" If I were a warden, I'd ticket them all. Poaching is poaching, and ignorance is not an excuse. Again, poorly written, but I have a HARD time understanding where anyone being honest could read "2 adults" as 3, unless of course it was just what they wanted to read....

It says one wild coho AND up to two adults. The "and" makes the coho additive to the adults. If they wanted to say that the overall limit was only two adults then you say "only two of which can be adults and only one of the adults can be a wild coho."

It may not be what they meant but it is what they wrote. It isn't that hard to write regs clearly and part of the process of writing them should include how can this be mis-interpreted.

NOF....last meeting "USED TO BE", go over wording of different rivers in Region 6. Sports fishermen, in attendance, had input as to the wording for different rivers in Region 6. The final NOF meeting, always took place in the WDFW building in Olympia. This final meeting got eliminated 2-3 years ago.....wording has been more of a problem since then.

I'm sure the intent was: Legal limit(Chehalis Side)

A. 6 jacks, hatchery or wild

B. 2 adult Coho, 1 could be wild

C. 2 Chum

D. No Chinook on the Chehalis side

E. 2 adult 1 Coho, w or h, and 1 Chum

F. 4 jacks, 2 adult, 1 could be a wild Coho BUT once adult limit is caught then you are done for the day.

G. Some fishermen, catch the adult limit then think they can fish jacks...wrong......adult limit is the driving force, see page 4 of Sport Fishing Rules

The issue is being looked at. Hope for some clarification soon.

Give that man a GOLD star!

If that is what the WAC says then why did they make the pamphlet so confusing? To supports Stam's fund-raising ideas?

Not sure that I subscribe to that theory but I do agree that the biggest bang for the buck is chasing the serious offenders.

But back to this poorly written "guidance" in the regulations pamphlet and your concern. If a WDFW LEO were to write a citation to someone who had taken the most liberal interpretation and that LEO gets +one point for writing the citation they should get -20 points for every one they have written that is tossed by a judge. Not being mean spirited but just pointing out a concern that the system may not have a method for identifying any LEO who may systematically abusing his ticket book.

I contacted Capt. Chadwick - Region 6 about the issues on the bag limit and the wording. He contact Mike Scharpf, Region 6 Biologist. Capt. Chadwick sent the following:

"I spoke with Mike Scharpf who was already aware of this issue. He and I discussed pamphlet language for next year.

For this year, Mike has put together a summary (attached) to clarify the intent. The issue of clarity surrounds the availability of space in the pamphlet each year, but as we discussed, if we need to articulate a rule for clarity then we need to argue for more space."

I apologize for the format posted below. It doesn't copy very well from Excel to Word and then copied for pasting on this page. Hopefully, you can read through the various rivers/waterways.

Dave

Summary of Grays Harbor Recreational Fisheries

Please check for any updates or changes (emergency regulations)

Bay (Area 2-2) Season Bag
North Bay Aug 1 - Sept 15 Daily limit 2, release wild Chinook and wild Coho

Johns River East Sept 16 - Nov 30 Daily limit 2 of which only one may be a wild Coho, release Chinook.

River Season Regulations
Humptulips Sept. 1 - Oct 15 6 fish of which 2 may be adults, Release wild Chinook and wild Coho. (jacks can only be hatchery Chinook and hatchery Coho).

Oct 16 - Oct 31 6 fish of which 2 may be adults and only one may be a hatchery Chinook, Release wild Chinook and wild Coho. (jacks can only be hatchery Chinook and hatchery Coho).

Nov 1 - Jan 31 6 fish of which 2 may be adults, Release Chinook and wild Coho. (jacks can only be hatchery Coho).

Chehalis Aug 1 - Sept 15 6 fish, release adult salmon
Mouth to South Elma Bridge Sept 16 - Dec 31 6 fish of which 2 may be adults of which only one may be a wild adult Coho, Release adult Chinook. (jacks can be any Chinook and Coho).
Jan 1 - Jan 31 6 fish of which 2 may be adults, Release Chinook and wild Coho. (jacks can only be hatchery Coho).
Sept 16 - Dec 31 6 fish of which 2 may be adults of which only one may be a wild adult Coho, Release Chinook. (jacks can be any Coho).

South Elma Bridge to Black River Jan 1 - Jan 31 6 fish of which 2 may be adults, Release Chinook and Coho. (jacks can only be hatchery Coho).
Sept 16 - Dec 31 6 fish of which 2 may be adults of which only one may be a wild Coho, Release Chinook and Chum. (jacks can only be Coho and only one may be wild if no wild adult Coho retained).

Black River upstream Jan 1 - Jan 31 6 fish of which 2 may be adults, Release Chinook, Chum, and wild Coho. (jacks can only be hatchery Coho).
Oct 1 - Dec 31 6 fish of which 2 may be adults of which only one may be a wild Coho, Release Chinook. (jacks can only be Coho and only one may be wild if no wild adult Coho retained).

Hoquiam Oct 1 - Dec 31 6 fish of which 2 may be adults of which only one may be a wild adult Coho, Release Chinook. (jacks can be any Coho).

Wishkah Oct 1 - Dec 31 6 fish of which 2 may be adults of which only one may be a wild adult Coho, Release Chinook. (jacks can be any Coho).

Wynoochee Oct 1 - Dec 31 6 fish of which 2 may be adults of which only one may be a wild Coho, Release Chinook. (jacks can only be Coho and only one may be wild if no wild adult Coho retained).

Satsop Jan 1 - Jan 31 6 fish of which 2 may be adults, Release Chinook and wild Coho. (jacks can only be hatchery Coho).
Oct 1 - Dec 31 6 fish of which 2 may be adults of which only one may be a wild Coho, Release Chinook and Chum. (jacks can only be Coho and only one may be wild if no wild adult Coho retained).
Black Oct 16 - Dec 31 6 fish of which 2 may be adults of which only one may be a wild Coho, Release Chinook and Chum. (jacks can only be Coho and only one may be wild if no wild adult Coho retained).

Skookumchuck Oct 16 - Dec 31 6 fish of which 2 may be adults of which only one may be a wild Coho, Release Chinook and Chum. (jacks can only be Coho and only one may be wild if no wild adult Coho retained).

Newaukum Oct 16 - Dec 31 6 fish of which 2 may be adults of which only one may be a wild Coho, Release Chinook and Chum. (jacks can only be Coho and only one may be wild if no wild adult Coho retained).

I utilized the Shared Values program WDFW LE is intiating and contacted Capt. Dan Chadwick about the issue. He sent me the following reply:



" I spoke with Mike Scharpf who was already aware of this issue. He and I discussed pamphlet language for next year. For this year, Mike has put together a summary (attached) to clarify the intent. The issue of clarity surrounds the availability of space in the pamphlet each year, but as we discussed, if we need to articulate a rule for clarity then we need to argue for more space.

Mike said we could post this summary on the pursuit page. He is posting it at various locations around the area. Thank you for alerting us to this and wanting to help get the message out. "

...and the information below. My computer skills are somewhat lacking in trying to move an Excel file to a Word format so it is pretty choppy. I'm trying to get a better copy. Will edit if I get it.

Dave


Summary of Grays Harbor Recreational Fisheries

Please check for any updates or changes (emergency regulations)

Bay (Area 2-2) Season Bag
North Bay Aug 1 - Sept 15 Daily limit 2, release wild Chinook and wild Coho
Johns River East Sept 16 - Nov 30 Daily limit 2 of which only one may be a wild Coho, release Chinook.

River Season Regulations
Humptulips Sept. 1 - Oct 15 6 fish of which 2 may be adults, Release wild Chinook and wild Coho. (jacks can only be hatchery Chinook and hatchery Coho).
Oct 16 - Oct 31 6 fish of which 2 may be adults and only one may be a hatchery Chinook, Release wild Chinook and wild Coho. (jacks can only be hatchery Chinook and hatchery Coho).
Nov 1 - Jan 31 6 fish of which 2 may be adults, Release Chinook and wild Coho. (jacks can only be hatchery Coho).

Chehalis Aug 1 - Sept 15 6 fish, release adult salmon
Mouth to South Elma Bridge Sept 16 - Dec 31 6 fish of which 2 may be adults of which only one may be a wild adult Coho, Release adult Chinook. (jacks can be any Chinook and Coho).
Jan 1 - Jan 31 6 fish of which 2 may be adults, Release Chinook and wild Coho. (jacks can only be hatchery Coho).
Sept 16 - Dec 31 6 fish of which 2 may be adults of which only one may be a wild adult Coho, Release Chinook. (jacks can be any Coho).

South Elma Bridge to Black River Jan 1 - Jan 31 6 fish of which 2 may be adults, Release Chinook and Coho. (jacks can only be hatchery Coho).
Sept 16 - Dec 31 6 fish of which 2 may be adults of which only one may be a wild Coho, Release Chinook and Chum. (jacks can only be Coho and only one may be wild if no wild adult Coho retained).

Black River upstream Jan 1 - Jan 31 6 fish of which 2 may be adults, Release Chinook, Chum, and wild Coho. (jacks can only be hatchery Coho).
Oct 1 - Dec 31 6 fish of which 2 may be adults of which only one may be a wild Coho, Release Chinook. (jacks can only be Coho and only one may be wild if no wild adult Coho retained).

Hoquiam Oct 1 - Dec 31 6 fish of which 2 may be adults of which only one may be a wild adult Coho, Release Chinook. (jacks can be any Coho).

Wishkah Oct 1 - Dec 31 6 fish of which 2 may be adults of which only one may be a wild adult Coho, Release Chinook. (jacks can be any Coho).

Wynoochee Oct 1 - Dec 31 6 fish of which 2 may be adults of which only one may be a wild Coho, Release Chinook. (jacks can only be Coho and only one may be wild if no wild adult Coho retained).

Satsop Jan 1 - Jan 31 6 fish of which 2 may be adults, Release Chinook and wild Coho. (jacks can only be hatchery Coho).
Oct 1 - Dec 31 6 fish of which 2 may be adults of which only one may be a wild Coho, Release Chinook and Chum. (jacks can only be Coho and only one may be wild if no wild adult Coho retained).

Black Oct 16 - Dec 31 6 fish of which 2 may be adults of which only one may be a wild Coho, Release Chinook and Chum. (jacks can only be Coho and only one may be wild if no wild adult Coho retained).

Skookumchuck Oct 16 - Dec 31 6 fish of which 2 may be adults of which only one may be a wild Coho, Release Chinook and Chum. (jacks can only be Coho and only one may be wild if no wild adult Coho retained).

Newaukum Oct 16 - Dec 31 6 fish of which 2 may be adults of which only one may be a wild Coho, Release Chinook and Chum. (jacks can only be Coho and only one may be wild if no wild adult Coho retained).

Thanks. Bushbear.

Mikey wrote that out rather clearly.

If space is such an issue that saving space tumps clarity then maybe they should group regs like they do Selective Gear Rules. Looks like the most of the GH streams have the same limit. So, write out once "GH freshwater limit" Then, for example, Skookumchuck (season listed) GH Freshwater Limit. Saves space.

Not a bad idea. Anything that would reduce the complexity and make things simpler would be useful.

That goes against Policy, though.

Lots of rule nuances differentiating rivers (species, adult vs jacks, wild vs hatchery, time periods during the season, numbers allowed to be retained, and gear limitations). If that level of rule differentiation is truly necessary then so be it......but as a "customer" I believe it is critical to start my search by the waters I intend to fish.

Maybe we need to consider separate regulation pamphlets for saltwater and freshwater; that approach might reduce the total number of pages actually printed and distributed.

Wow. I thought I understood the poorly-written version well enough until I read the posts about jacks.

I thought jacks were all immature males that couldn't spawn. Reading that there are rules in place to protect more than one wild jack from being harvested tells me I was wrong. I'd always heard in discussion that there wasn't a great reason to limit jack harvest.

Are jacks capable of spawning? If so, I guess it would explain why one wild jack would represent a limit on wild fish for the day. However, I didn't gather that a limit of jacks could only include one wild fish. I didn't get that at all from the rules, and I bet a lot of wild jacks got conked this year that shouldn't have been. I'm starting to think the rules may be too complex to express in a manner that would encourage any judge to prosecute a rules violation. At some point, too many rules undermines the purpose for making rules in the first place. We may have arrived in the Chehalis system.

Saving space in the pamphlet? Seriously he must be joking.

Jacks are fully capable of spawning. They bring a completely different brood year (genetics) into the mix.

If a jack is just as viable a spawner as an adult, it makes no sense to allow a limit of up to 6. Assuming (there I go again) the wild:hatchery ratios are similar for jacks and adults, anecdotal evidence suggests that over 20 jacks might need to be caught to harvest a limit of 5 hatchery + 1 wild. With eggs being the preferred medium for fishing jacks, at least some of those released fish would be mortally wounded upon release. Lest we forget, a lot of adult, female Chinook get caught in that fishery.

Should we dial back the limit on jacks, to clear up the dangerous confusion their fishery causes in rulemaking, but also to assure better numbers of wild spawners reach the gravel? I get that you don't need as many males as females to have spawning success, but considering how many adult Chinook get hooked, landed, and (usually) released in the jack fishery, it seems like really bad policy to allow guys to keep eggs in water full of Chinook for the kind of time it would require to weed out 5, let alone 6, hatchery jacks.

But yeah, the regs were poorly written. I thought I had understood them completely. I had not.

Ya I thought the generous jack limit was to reduce # of jacks spawning.

And concerning saving space I can sort of understand that... I wonder how much it costs them to print all those rule books every year.

However I can't imagine they are unable to locate a technical writer capable of communicating the regs in a fashion we could easily understand. (although apparently they can't)

The generous jack limit may be too reduce their number on the grounds but they are important components. Ideally, most of the spawners should be fully adult but with MSY and beyond management the adult numbers can be low. Plus, they are not taken in gill nets so the increased sport limit is likely an attempt to balance that out.

They have had good reg writers in the past, but..........................